Indestructible interceptors?

[Sathra]

Having people provide feedback on my mod would be really helpful too *hint hint*

[TrashMan]

Stellar, that is only true because 1 hit is enough to kill a plane in our world.

In xenonauts a condor can withstand several good hits from a light fighter or a scout, a corsair can withstand several good hits from much larger ships, and a marauder, well..

In xenonauts where airplanes are much much tougher and also faster than enemy craft, it is a very safe assumption that they run away.

Like you would if you were in their shoes

Escape? In arial combat?

LOLOLOLOLO

Your airplane may be fast - but bullets and missiels are faster. And if you got hit while tangling with the enemy in a dogfight, just how easier will you be to hit when you expose your rear to the enemy and fly away?

If evadnig was so easy, then your aircraft wouldn't be damaged in the first place.

And even at full burn, to get outside the enemy weapon range takes time...a lot of time actually if it's flying after you. Even if your aircraft is twice as fast.

[Gauddlike]

The assertion that your aircraft are faster than the enemy is also not necessarily true.

Some of your craft are faster than some of their craft.

However some of the alien craft are significantly faster than equal or lower tier human craft so it would not always be the case.

If relative speed is the deciding factor in your craft being indestructible then it doesn't make sense that the same rules would apply when you are slower than the enemy.

In the same way some alien craft are more manoeuvrable than the human craft so evading them would also not be a foregone conclusion.

For that matter if it is easy to break contact and abandon the fight when faster shouldn't enemies that are faster than your craft have the same rules?

After all they can make a break for space where you cannot follow.

Another thing that springs to mind is how would indestructible craft handle running out of fuel?

[ciago92]

I don't like the idea of the invulnerable escape etc. I do have one point though....you already have an emergency escape button. How about you press that button when you think your plane is in trouble and then it'll attempt to escape like you want. Depending on the situation it may or may not escape, which is realistic.

[StellarRat]

I don't like the idea of the invulnerable escape etc. I do have one point though....you already have an emergency escape button. How about you press that button when you think your plane is in trouble and then it'll attempt to escape like you want. Depending on the situation it may or may not escape, which is realistic.

Exactly.

[thothkins]

Having people provide feedback on my mod would be really helpful too *hint hint*

I've not even really got into the steam vanilla version yet. Then someone nagged me to update the mod list

[Yoplate]

I might have heard this idea somewhere else, but I think a good fix would be the option to recover lost aircraft for something like 1/2 cost and 5 days (these are just numbers of the top of my head). This would make it so you can still lose your aircraft, but you dont have to start entirely over from scratch after you mess up and lose a Corsair or something.

[shpeka]

There is one more elegant way of solving the problem: make hangar expensive/slow to build.

As pointed by many so far - early craft should be easily replaceable (frame provided by the funding nations), while later craft are sturdier and easier to keep alive.

This solution will make it hard to amass tons of cheap aircraft while at the same time will make the loss of a single craft less painful.

[Wintermist]

If the problem is that too many fighters get shot down, perhaps the problem lies not with the economy/availability of the fighter, but rather why they get shot down in the first place. It's better to fix the root problem instead of patching it up to work around it.

[Person012345]

If this crap gets implemented can we at least get a toggle?

[StellarRat]

I really haven't had much complaint about the fighters getting whacked since they lowered the prices in the last release. It's really a non-issue for me now. When they were 200K that was a BIG deal.

[svidangel]

I really haven't had much complaint about the fighters getting whacked since they lowered the prices in the last release. It's really a non-issue for me now. When they were 200K that was a BIG deal.

+1

[OhNoItsNot]

My only problem is when you send a foxtrot against fighters and they get hit by a missile that one-shots them that you can't dodge

[svidangel]

You can "dodge" by outrunning it, you just have to plan out your angles in advance.

[ciago92]

I might have heard this idea somewhere else, but I think a good fix would be the option to recover lost aircraft for something like 1/2 cost and 5 days (these are just numbers of the top of my head). This would make it so you can still lose your aircraft, but you dont have to start entirely over from scratch after you mess up and lose a Corsair or something.

I like this idea....but expand it into combat. Same as you recover alien craft, maybe they attempt to recover your planes? Figure out what you're doing so they can counter it. Then you can send in a team to recover the plane and fight off the aliens. That might even give a setup for a tug of war type battle where the objective is in the middle and whatever team holds it for X turns wins

[Mordobb]

LAte to the party, 1 all the way if you can t intercept you ve lost the game, manage your ressource, learn when to retreat...The other options IMHO are too whimpy.

[wcanyon]

I find making the planes indestructible to be out of character with the style of game. So #2 would be my option. Otherwise we could extend the same argument to soldiers: Getting someone leveled up to Major represents a large time investment, should we make soldiers go into a coma instead of dying? Doesn't work, sometimes dudes are just gonna get atomized and it'd be odd if it was otherwise.

[Rebel44]

I'm on the fence about this. I like them being destructable, but I can understand the balance issues, although I get the impression most of the balance issue revolves around the early game right? The bit when you're struggling for resources and cash is what you're worried about?

This is only an idea, but what about making the MIG and Condor quite cheap and quick to build/replace, and keep the rest of the other more advanced aircraft in their current state?

The "logic" being that the MIG and Condor are simply existing airframes which are donated to the Xenonauts by the funding nations (like ballistic guns are) and the small cost+time are the modifications to Xenonauts specifications, whereas the others due to their bespoke nature represent serious research and investment.

The result would mean if you do lose a plane early on (when you're only using F17/MIGs), then it's not a massive game ending blow and you won't have to balance the game around it, but it keeps up the value of the higher aircraft.

In the later stages, it'll mean losing an advanced plane is a blow, but thanks to having more resources and hopefully some backup equipment, you'll be able to simply quickly knock up a couple of MIGS/Condors and equip them with the higher tier aircraft weaponry to at least maintain some air capability, rather than leaving you in the lurch as it can currently do.

It'll also underline the worth of the better planes, and keep the all important feeling of loss which tbh, makes the game much more interesting and engaging to play.

I agree with this idea.

[Black Cat]

Well being obviously late to this party I am not going to offer suggestions, as much as just observations.

I find I love air combat first and foremost. Love It. That being said I don't like the idea of invulnerable aircraft but as they stand now, 250k for a foxtrot seems to high. 50k condors seem fine to me.

As to some other ideas thrown in this thread ....

While in the OG air combat wasn't a big focus. I think this game has made it as important as the ground game. And to my belief rightfully so.

I actually tend to find that my foxtrots never get shot down, but I also fly them close enough to unload their torps and then run them like hell. I treat them like bombers.

But I also agree when I do make the occasional mistake and they get shot down.... off to the last save spot.

As for people saying multiple waves hitting a single ufo... How do you do that? My first and generally so far only base will have 3 condors, 2 foxes, and a Charlie. I have gotten to the point where I have had two Corsairs and working on a marauder, with just unlocking the shrike. But to get there I had pretty much written off having more than a single base. The idea of being able to have enough AC's around to make multiple sorties at a ufo, and manage to be building/have my second or third base is beyond me atm.

My biggest and probably only real complaint with this game.... is the cost of everything. I figured it out, to get a bare bones base up and running is about 1.6M. And this is what I at my current understanding of the game is just bare bones. The Base, Store room, Radar, 3 Hangers, 2 Fox's and a Condor. This doesn't take into account troops, dropships, other rooms, or weapons and armor for troops and AC's. were talking 2-3M for a fully operational useful base without research or production capabilities. To me the game seems to progress to fast for that.

Now I know when it comes to Xeno I am a newb, still learning the tech trees, and the flow of the game. But I have beaten TFTD on fake Ironman and that recent sorta X-Com on normal Ironman. But so far learning this game I have had to go full blown cheese save scrumming easy dif mode. And even then I think I am on my 8-10th restart at this point, my last getting me to January for the first time and unlocking the Shrike.

This game either moves to fast through the pacing or everything costs way to much. But that is again my only complaint about this game. Outside that I absolutely love it. This is the X-Com that I wish that other one had been.

[Sathra]

You could try my mod, but I think it might make the game too easy.

[smoitessier]

I agree that the pacing is to fast atm

[Lightzy]

play ironman like a man and then come back and reply here :>

I can guarantee to you that the only way you'll have to critically lose the game would be the loss of aircraft. even just one battle gone wrong.

[Dranak]

Well being obviously late to this party I am not going to offer suggestions, as much as just observations.

I find I love air combat first and foremost. Love It. That being said I don't like the idea of invulnerable aircraft but as they stand now, 250k for a foxtrot seems to high. 50k condors seem fine to me.

As to some other ideas thrown in this thread ....

While in the OG air combat wasn't a big focus. I think this game has made it as important as the ground game. And to my belief rightfully so.

I actually tend to find that my foxtrots never get shot down, but I also fly them close enough to unload their torps and then run them like hell. I treat them like bombers.

But I also agree when I do make the occasional mistake and they get shot down.... off to the last save spot.

As for people saying multiple waves hitting a single ufo... How do you do that? My first and generally so far only base will have 3 condors, 2 foxes, and a Charlie. I have gotten to the point where I have had two Corsairs and working on a marauder, with just unlocking the shrike. But to get there I had pretty much written off having more than a single base. The idea of being able to have enough AC's around to make multiple sorties at a ufo, and manage to be building/have my second or third base is beyond me atm.

You can do this with only one set of aircraft. Engage a UFO, fire missiles, disengage, return to base, rearm, launch again. You can't always pull it off (depends on range to the UFO), but you can get in extra attacks. It can also help to send the Foxtrots by themselves since they are much faster than Condors.

My biggest and probably only real complaint with this game.... is the cost of everything. I figured it out, to get a bare bones base up and running is about 1.6M. And this is what I at my current understanding of the game is just bare bones. The Base, Store room, Radar, 3 Hangers, 2 Fox's and a Condor. This doesn't take into account troops, dropships, other rooms, or weapons and armor for troops and AC's. were talking 2-3M for a fully operational useful base without research or production capabilities. To me the game seems to progress to fast for that.

Now I know when it comes to Xeno I am a newb, still learning the tech trees, and the flow of the game. But I have beaten TFTD on fake Ironman and that recent sorta X-Com on normal Ironman. But so far learning this game I have had to go full blown cheese save scrumming easy dif mode. And even then I think I am on my 8-10th restart at this point, my last getting me to January for the first time and unlocking the Shrike.

This game either moves to fast through the pacing or everything costs way to much. But that is again my only complaint about this game. Outside that I absolutely love it. This is the X-Com that I wish that other one had been.

Agreed that the Geoscape balance is messed up, at this point I think we're just waiting to see how the first attempt at rebalancing it (which I believe is underway) works.

Currently missile upgrades >>> everything else in the game in terms of research importance. I do have an Ironman game going where I'm starting construction on my second base at the end of month 1 (base, radar, 2 hangars under way with other hangars, quarters, stores, med center starting in a few days). But I got to that point by not building anything other than a med center, living quarters, and one Foxtrot.

[xcomnaut]

In short, we've got three options:

1) As now, with the planes being enormous investments of time and resources and destroyable. This makes what should be a relatively minor part of the game (the actual air combat) extremely important, as it can make or break the game.

2) The planes are destructible, but don't take as much time or resources to build. This would allow the player some leeway in terms of losing them. Doesn't make a lot of sense that they'd be faster and cheaper to make than vehicles etc, though.

3) Indestructible planes, as above. It means that planes can be a big investment and people are punished for using them badly in the air combat, but not that harshly. You still can't shoot down UFOs that too powerful for you, so it doesn't unbalance the game, it just makes things more forgiving.

4) Making more money from UFOs so we can spend more money to rebuild lost planes. After mission i see destroyed..destroyed..destroyed. Should be sold..sold..sold. Right now lost plane = almost game over.

5) Rebalance UFO. Make them less accurate, doing less damage, using less fighters, ect.

6) Rebalance our planes. Make them stronger, faster, ect.

7) Rebalance weapons. Make them do less damage.

8) Remove fighters from game (worst balancing scenario)

[Nemeo]

If losing a dogfight equals losing the game, it means too much emphasis was put on the air combat.

To solve this you can lower air combat importance. For instance, you can make UFO land regularly so that the player can send a chinook to fight them on the ground. Landed UFOs would have to be more difficult than crash landed UFO, or else the player would just wait for UFOs to land and not buy any aicraft.

Another solution would be to give more tools to the player to deal with air combat. Like ground to air missiles fired from the bases, for instance. This would have to be carefully balanced so that the player wouldn't be tempted to abandon air to air combat for ground to air missiles. The player would have to build a special building in a base to use them and their range would be limited. You could make those cruise missiles costly, or make them only useful against smaller UFOs (bigger UFOs would be able to intercept those missiles before they could do any damage).

If air combat is a problem only at the beginning of the game you can do just as Buzzles suggested and make early aircrafts cheap to build. The power gap between starter planes and prototypes would have to be very important to make these researched aircrafts a lot more interesting and cost efficient than starter jets, or else the player would be tempted to use only starter interceptors.

A last suggestion. When an aircraft is shot down, roll a dice to determine if the pilot managed to eject. If so, give the player a good refund on the destroyed aircraft since training a pilot cost a good chunk of money. You could also give the player a research credit for aircraft research, thanks to the data collected by the black box of the downed aircraft. You could even make a research to improve the ejecting rate of pilots. If a UFO destroyed a squadron, it could also land on your squadron crash site to capture ejected pilots. You would have to send xenonauts to rescue them. That would be just awesome, since it would give another opportunity to defeat this UFO without solely relying on air combat.