[5.22+ Ground Combat] Alien gas grenade inconsistent damage //updated version has even more issues

[gG-Unknown]

Here is my observation, in standard font AND my // comments in Italic font, Also added marks OK OR WRONG OR DOUBT . Feel free to correct me. Anyway, the damage delivered is inconsistent or totally bugged.

Alien toxic grenade cloud initially damaged only HP which was fully negated by mask. Recently I have discovered that cloud eats my armour. Perhaps it is intended, but it certainly wasn’t in patch notes, so it might also be a bug. Anyway here it comes :

• damages 10 HP on impact AND 10HP for each tile of movement. // OK
• damages body armour by 3 on impact AND zero armour for each tile of movement // WRONG Lets assume it is an corrosive cloud, then it must eat armour same way as HP. For sake of consistency I recommend >> Cloud eats 1 armour on impact AND 1armour for each tile of movement. On top of this, If character has no armour left, then corrosive cloud gets directly on skin and causes 10HP dmg. e.i. un-armored target gets 20HP by the cloud impact AND 20 HP on each tile of movement.
• Shield takes zero HP on impact AND 10HP for each tile of movement.// DOUBT it is a bit too harsh AND certainly not consistent. For consistency and fair play make corrosive power of cloud affect armour same as shield. Both are items ! I recommend >> Cloud eats 1 HP of shield on impact AND 1 HP for each tile of movement.
• There is another level of inconsistency. Dmg on shield when shot by firearm is not announced, but toxic  cloud announces dmg on shied by same method as HP. On top, dmg by cloud on armor stays silent.  // WRONG It is chaos ! stay consistent, do not announce armour dmg  OR shield dmg by the cloud

Note:  I dont use MARS  ever or dint throw cloud on Androne yet. So I have no observation on this topic.  If my assumption are correct and grenade is corrosive now, it should be perfect weapon  for any robot destruction.

Note2: It would be better rename grenade to Alien Corrosive Grenade

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// EDIT : I tried play today on different version, it looks like announcing shield dmg is fixed (removed as I recommended) - which is improvement. Also shield take some damage on impact, I had just one case, very hectic so am not sure what  exactly happened, it looks like the shield received about 50% dmg on cloud impact. Anyway all my comments&recommendations are valid.

 

Edited April 22 by gG-Unknown

[gG-Unknown]

I was lucky to capture Alien gas grenade today, so I can throw  it and test.

Here is current behaviour  which is highly irregular,  I cant say bugged because I see it as prototype.

version 5.25.2 Stable

• on impact takes 18HP from shield AND 10 HP shield for each tile
• on impact takes 2 HP from body armour AND 0 HP for each tile
• on impact takes 10HP of life mask-less soldier AND 10 HP of life for each tile
• if soldier has a shield then gas has no impact effect on armour (crazy)

Positives:

• blast radius is lower >>> 2,5 tiles good !
• smoke interference is 10% per tile good! but it could be even less, try 7%

 

For some reason, grenade says that Armour destruction is 3 which is not the case.

For some reason, grenade says that damage is 15 Chemical which is not the case.

Easiest method how to nullify gas is throw a smoke. Simple and stupid. Apparently current system only apply one environment effect on tile, so when smoke replace gas, soldiers are safe.

========================

All my previous recommendation are still valid. PLUS

1.  gas dmg to armour and shield have to be independent. Shield can not block gas !
2. environment effects needs a system which allows stacking so tile with smoke AND gas AND fire is possible

Edited April 23 by gG-Unknown

[Chris]

13 hours ago, gG-Unknown said:

I was lucky to capture Alien gas grenade today, so I can throw  it and test.

Here is current behaviour  which is highly irregular,  I cant say bugged because I see it as prototype.

version 5.25.2 Stable

• on impact takes 18HP from shield AND 10 HP shield for each tile
• on impact takes 2 HP from body armour AND 0 HP for each tile
• on impact takes 10HP of life mask-less soldier AND 10 HP of life for each tile
• if soldier has a shield then gas has no impact effect on armour (crazy)

Positives:

• blast radius is lower >>> 2,5 tiles good !
• smoke interference is 10% per tile good! but it could be even less, try 7%

 

For some reason, grenade says that Armour destruction is 3 which is not the case.

For some reason, grenade says that damage is 15 Chemical which is not the case.

Easiest method how to nullify gas is throw a smoke. Simple and stupid. Apparently current system only apply one environment effect on tile, so when smoke replace gas, soldiers are safe.

========================

All my previous recommendation are still valid. PLUS

1.  gas dmg to armour and shield have to be independent. Shield can not block gas !
2. environment effects needs a system which allows stacking so tile with smoke AND gas AND fire is possible

Thanks. Yeah, you're right there's something strange going on with the way poison gas interacts with combat shields. We'll get that fixed. It shouldn't be taking so much damage on impact, and it shouldn't be taking damage on movement either.

The damage calculation for armour seems fine for the initial impact, it seems to do 3 damage to tactical armour on impact. Maybe the armour you're testing has a resistance value too.

I think it's fine for the initial explosion to cause armour damage but then the gas itself not to cause armour damage when you move through it. The grenade might contain more than just gas.

I'll set poison gas to have a higher priority than smoke.

[gG-Unknown]

7 hours ago, Chris said:

 Thanks.

//My comments in Italic blue

It shouldn't be taking so much damage on impact, and it shouldn't be taking damage on movement either. // as long as Xeno-soldiers gets same dmg for impact AND movement, for sake of consistency make it all the same. Items and living things should get damage the same way. Ideally in the natural ratio (1:10 OR 1:5).

" Living things gets 10 dmg, items gets 1dmg, it is the same for hit or movement. "

Living things gets ten times more than items. Methods of dmg are the same. It is Game rule in one sentence, easy to remember for player. All combat Xeno combat mechanic is simple, dont deviate from the course.

The damage calculation for armour seems fine for the initial impact, it seems to do 3 damage to tactical armour on impact. Maybe the armour you're testing has a resistance value too. // I tested on Guardian armour. Calculation for armour is not fine for initial impact see above. I am sorry to disagree with you, I would better see very simple one sentence  rules. Apply dmg or not. Some items could have immunity to Chemical dmg (colossus is made of alien alloys and sealed?), but I would not go into % resistance stuff. It is can of worms. 

I think it's fine for the initial explosion to cause armour damage but then the gas itself not to cause armour damage when you move through it. The grenade might contain more than just gas. // no, it is not. There is an electric grenade which cause  two effects, but both effects are  instant and work on different target typess. Do not complicate things that a grenade has an explosive  part AND damage over time part. On top ech part of attack apply on different targets differently. That is possible for games like Baldurs Gate3 where player is expected to spend 300 hours by learning base rules. I can only highlight KISS again. Keep It Stupid Simple.

I'll set poison gas to have a higher priority than smoke. // that is very simple solution which would work, yes. Certainly do it. In case you get more time, even after  release, it  will be nice to develop proper multi-enviroment hazard system with interactions. Like fire  can ignite gas :-]

Edited April 23 by gG-Unknown

[Chris]

2 hours ago, gG-Unknown said:

//My comments in Italic blue

It shouldn't be taking so much damage on impact, and it shouldn't be taking damage on movement either. // as long as Xeno-soldiers gets same dmg for impact AND movement, for sake of consistency make it all the same. Items and living things should get damage the same way. Ideally in the natural ratio (1:10 OR 1:5).

" Living things gets 10 dmg, items gets 1dmg, it is the same for hit or movement. "

Living things gets ten times more than items. Methods of dmg are the same. It is Game rule in one sentence, easy to remember for player. All combat Xeno combat mechanic is simple, dont deviate from the course.

The damage calculation for armour seems fine for the initial impact, it seems to do 3 damage to tactical armour on impact. Maybe the armour you're testing has a resistance value too. // I tested on Guardian armour. Calculation for armour is not fine for initial impact see above. I am sorry to disagree with you, I would better see very simple one sentence  rules. Apply dmg or not. Some items could have immunity to Chemical dmg (colossus is made of alien alloys and sealed?), but I would not go into % resistance stuff. It is can of worms. 

I think it's fine for the initial explosion to cause armour damage but then the gas itself not to cause armour damage when you move through it. The grenade might contain more than just gas. // no, it is not. There is an electric grenade which cause  two effects, but both effects are  instant and work on different target typess. Do not complicate things that a grenade has an explosive  part AND damage over time part. On top ech part of attack apply on different targets differently. That is possible for games like Baldurs Gate3 where player is expected to spend 300 hours by learning base rules. I can only highlight KISS again. Keep It Stupid Simple.

I'll set poison gas to have a higher priority than smoke. // that is very simple solution which would work, yes. Certainly do it. In case you get more time, even after  release, it  will be nice to develop proper multi-enviroment hazard system with interactions. Like fire  can ignite gas :-]

Again, this is mostly your personal opinions on game balance rather than bugs.

It's not a bug if I decide that a grenade has both a shrapnel element and a poison element to it, and it's not a bug if you take more damage from being caught in an exploding gas grenade blast than you do from walking through one tile of gas, and it's not a bug if there's no simple rule that the armour destruction is a fixed percentage of the raw damage. You can post your opinions on that sort of thing in the balance threads if you want, but please don't fill up the bug threads with it.

The grenade explosion itself does 15 damage and causes 3 armour destruction. The poison gas inflicts 10 damage when it spawns into a tile, and for each tile a unit passes through. It also inflicts 20 damage if you remain in the tile at end of turn.

There's clearly a problem with shields, as you've already reported. Thinking more about it, you probably took 2 armour destruction because the grenade didn't hit dead on your soldier, and the damage drop-off reduced the inflicted armour destruction. So the only actual bug I can see is that combat shields should be immune to the poison gas (but not the initial 15 damage caused by the grenade).