Squad Shared Sight Issues

[Chris]

So this is one of the major mechanics that strikes me as unbalanced in the current game: the combination of squad sight and persistent LOS (i.e. a unit can look at a location and move away, but that location still stays "revealed" for the rest of the turn).

This means you can game the system pretty effectively by sending your soldier into range of an alien to spot him, then run him out of fire range to keep him safe but still pick the alien off with your snipers. That only leaves you vulnerable to reaction fire during the entire process.

It also leads to a problem where if an alien spots your team, they will all be able to shoot at you even if you then kill that alien. It's frustrating because there's nothing you can do about it.

I'm therefore thinking we'll make these two changes:

• LOS is no longer persistent throughout the turn. The only areas revealed are those that are directly in the LOS of a unit at that particular time. Therefore if a unit is killed or turns away from an area, it is no longer revealed.
  
• If a unit is suppressed, it loses all LOS.
  

This does more to address the second issue, as if you come across an alien in your turn you either need to kill or suppress it or you'll possibly get enemy squad fire at you during the alien turn (or retreat out of range).

It only partially addresses point 1, but unfortunately that's always going to be a valid tactic so long as we don't decide to force to utilize their units sequentially without letting them swop between them - and I've no plans to change that.

Thoughts and comments welcome.

[Sathra]

Sounds good to me. Something similar to the first part already happens in night missions since the alien doesn't seem to show up to be targeting unless they're actually still in a unit's view range and requires having the spotter stay in place (and possibly get shot in the back by friendlies, which has happened a few times).

Being able to suppress an alien and avoid plasma spray would be much appreciated. Just need flashbangs to not become weaker the further they are thrown and it would be a tactical decision to try to suppress the alien and move the rest of the team up for the kill/stun/nuke. Its too risky to do it at the moment.

I wouldn't worry so much about point 1 (sniper/spotter) as the aliens can do it too. And have, with sniper rifles even (damn >spoilers<!) Part of the brokenness of it in the OG was that the aliens couldn't use the tactic.

Add in the seemingly heftier movement costs (can't move as freely as the OG, or at least can't seem to. maybe because the maps are bigger? dunno) and the alien's excellent view range and even running away won't always help.

[raziel1981]

I agree with the first point, but I'm not sure that treating suppression in this way in terms of LOS is correct. Then again I might be missing out here on something regarding that issue.

[Sathra]

Basically, if you suppress instead of kill an alien now, he/she/it can still spot for the other aliens on the map even though it can't do much by itself. Cue plasma from across the (wide open) map.

With the change, if you suppress the alien it cannot spot, opening up more options to deal with it besides kill it immediately (such as send in troops to beat it unconscious next turn). You'd be 'safer' unless you move into LOS of an un-suppressed alien. In quotes as the alien can still shoot during its turn, just not as much.

It also works the other way around if your scouts get suppressed they can't spot for snipers anymore. It makes sniper/spotter a bit more risky as well as required you to move another troops into harms way or find some way of protecting the scout since they can't reaction fire. They also couldn't update you on enemy movements at the front end (like, say...Reapers) during the alien turn.

Now that I think about it maybe not a total loss of LOS? Reduce it to a few tiles (2-3?) as you'd notice something man-sized coming that close even if you were ducking behind cover as much as possible. Players would still game it, but they'll find a way anyways and it means you can't park 3 (if alien is in cover) or 4 troopers around the alien (with combat shields if you want to be extra safe and damn the weight) so it can't run away.

Edit: Doh, forgot suppression fades on the unit's turn. Disregard the alien camping part. Would give players more ability to react (or panic) to alien moves somewhat though.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Sathra

[Gauddlike]

I think suppression removing LOS may make the situation worse.

If you get spotted outside of your own range and attract enough reaction fire to be suppressed yourself then you have the whole enemy team still able to see your scout who cannot see or move, assuming he survived.

If you still wanted to take that route then I would reduce LOS on suppression rather than remove it entirely.

If someone were to run up to a suppressed soldier (or alien) to attempt to melee it then having other troops try to protect it with reaction fire would be a great moment.

Maybe more like a 50% reduction in LOS?

How do people feel about limiting reaction fire to your own visual range, with a possible modifier for some weapons?

Soldiers would still react to threats they could see but not necessarily on things that were in the distance.

Reaction firing is more defensive that way at least.

The modifier would be for things like the precision rifle, it may not give a bonus to how often you reaction fire but the scope would let you react to threats a bit further away.

*edit* Not a flat cutoff but a falloff in reaction chance as range increases past current LOS range. That wasn't very clear.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Gauddlike

[Sathra]

I'm confused, don't they already not reaction fire unless its within their visual range? Having it a falloff would be different and useful in various situations (camping ufo doors comes to mind).

[Gauddlike]

Depend what you mean by visual range I guess.

I meant as in their individual view range, I take it you meant in LOS?

So in basic armour you would have your full chance to reaction fire on anyone within 16 tiles which would become less likely as the range increased.

[Sathra]

I meant within individual view range. I've had aliens RF from what seemed like into shared LOS but on closer inspection turned out to be well within their individual view range (which can be pretty damn far. Goddamn H's).

I do like your suggestion though.

[erutan]

I'm with Gaud on reducing LOS but not entirely replacing it. I'd take a cue from EU12 and how someone that was "hunkering down" had a much smaller LOS but still knew what was going on in their immediate vicinity.

[Gauddlike]

I meant within individual view range. I've had aliens RF from what seemed like into shared LOS but on closer inspection turned out to be well within their individual view range (which can be pretty damn far. Goddamn H's).

I do like your suggestion though.

Hmm maybe that is the case and the longer view ranges have made me feel like it isn't!

Would need clarification from Chris (or maybe Giovanni) on that one.

[StellarRat]

IMO, this going to totally change how people play the game AND it will deviate from the XCom system. That's OK, by me, but it's going to cause a lot of rebalancing issues.

We won't lose the map though (i.e. it won't return to black), just the aliens?

[Gauddlike]

I imagine it will grey out as normal rather than fall back into the shroud.

Which part did you think was going to be the problem, suppression reducing LOS, limiting reaction range, or FOW recovering when no one is nearby?

The post wasn't very clear.

[StellarRat]

I imagine it will grey out as normal rather than fall back into the shroud.

Which part did you think was going to be the problem, suppression reducing LOS, limiting reaction range, or FOW recovering when no one is nearby?

The post wasn't very clear.

Well, my tactic is to spot, withdraw to cover, and kill with another unit from the backfield (usually a heavy weapon.) That obviously isn't going to work now or not as well. So, I expect I will be losing more battles. Hence, the rebalancing, IMO. Of course, maybe no one else plays like I do, although I find that hard to believe. I don't really find anything a "problem" per se. It just seems to me this will make the game harder on the humans than it does on the alien AI.

[Lt_Parsons]

As already been said, night missions already work in very similar way - if you move out one who spotted enemy, you no longer can target that enemy, cursor just don't highlight that spot anymore.

It doesn't mean that you as a player do not know about where he was and cannot spam bullets/grenades/rockets his way trying to catch him in a blast and/or suppress radius =)

I liked this sight dynamic, so support having it in day missions too.

On suppression, hmm. I'm with suggestion for limiting sight, but not disabling it completely. If you got your scout suppressed, especially on sudden reaction fire, disabling sight for him basically would mean death most of time.

As a variant, maybe limit it even for next turn, where poor man already have half tu's - would keep pressure on trying to save soldier, instead of possible retaliating, which is purpose of suppressing someone in the first place.

[StellarRat]

As already been said, night missions already work in very similar way - if you move out one who spotted enemy, you no longer can target that enemy, cursor just don't highlight that spot anymore.

A starlight rocket for the rocket launcher would be very useful.

[steelwarrior]

I Like the idea of removing sight, if the soldier is moved back - that would be agood rebalance - even though battles are already quite tough - one get a lot shot and killed at first...

[Jean-Luc]

Should work nicely to remove the extremes of "alpha striking" on both sides and I welcome things that make suppression more tactically relevant. I suppose it'd be more "realistic" if the suppressed unit's LoS was severely reduced rather than outright removed but I'm not sire if it'd have any impact on gameplay.

[Freelandr]

As already been said, night missions already work in very similar way - if you move out one who spotted enemy, you no longer can target that enemy, cursor just don't highlight that spot anymore.

It doesn't mean that you as a player do not know about where he was and cannot spam bullets/grenades/rockets his way trying to catch him in a blast and/or suppress radius =)

I often grenade or rocket an area i knew an alien was last known to be, I dont know if thats supposed to be able to happen but I use any advantage I can think of to win the lvl.

[Lt_Parsons]

I often grenade or rocket an area i knew an alien was last known to be, I dont know if thats supposed to be able to happen but I use any advantage I can think of to win the lvl.

Shooting blindly in the darkness in hope, that whatever alien horror that hides there would just go away and die in some corner from bleeding, fire and smoke?

I don't see anything wrong with that =)

[StellarRat]

Shooting blindly in the darkness in hope, that whatever alien horror that hides there would just go away and die in some corner from bleeding, fire and smoke?

I don't see anything wrong with that =)

Ditto on that one. I also sometimes fire LMG bursts in the direction of the aliens. There is a fair chance that there will be an alien somewhere in firing cone (if you know roughly where they are.)

[erutan]

I really like this idea. Rockets are great for night missions due to the extra illumination.

It should also promote a balanced squad makeup (moving is more important), which is one of the issues brought up in the combat balance thread. It's a little too easy to just scout with a vehicle and have your HW crew fire from afar as is, and I often have to move my vehicle out of the line of fire.

[Lt_Parsons]

Ditto on that one. I also sometimes fire LMG bursts in the direction of the aliens. There is a fair chance that there will be an alien somewhere in firing cone (if you know roughly where they are.)

In case that what i said earlier come out as sarcasm, it wasn't. I'm using this tactic fairly often myself - as i said, i like that possibility and dynamic light feature. The picture of this situation just was graphic enough in my imagination, and so i tried to describe it.

A starlight rocket for the rocket launcher would be very useful.

Rocket that fire skyward, would light everything in large radius, allowing us to see surroundings (and aliens to see us), and dimming into darkness again right afterwards, as it burns out? Sounds really interesting. Especially if it would be somehow possible to zoom-out screen while it lasts.

[erutan]

Having a proper flare would be cool, but I'm not sure how well the engine would handle it.

[StellarRat]

Having a proper flare would be cool, but I'm not sure how well the engine would handle it.

Couldn't we just make it simple and have the rocket launcher aim for a square on the map? You fire, then the flare appears at the aim point -+ . Instead of a standard flare it would be two or three times as powerful.

[Max_Caine]

As Lt. Parsons already knows you can sort-of do that now, but you get some odd results. The other solution is to make an almost weightless rocket which occupies a 1x1 backpack square, does 0 damage and has a cause fire chance of 100% and a cause smoke chance of 0%.