Regarding Maps in V18

[TehRic]

Two questions from someone who has only been playing casually during the alpha and is now playing a bit more now that we're in beta:

1) Are the randomized sub-maps functional in the current build? Unless my build installed incorrectly from the last, the sub-maps are supposed to randomize per selected level, right? I'm having loads of fun, but I can't help but twitch after running the exact same maps containing a near-exact replica of sub-map placements. If the randomization of sub-maps isn't fully in place, then that's fine, but I get the feeling something's off.

2) Are any of the player-submitted maps compatible as of now? I ask, because the last mapping thread is from February.

P.S. Great work with the transition from alpha to beta! Looking forward to the upcoming updates.

[GizmoGomez]

The maps don't randomize; it'd be really difficult to make all the pieces fit together coherently, and they decided to simply make several preset maps and leave it like that. As you move away from light scouts and on to bigger things, it'll get a lot better as far as variety goes (or so I'm told; I've only gotten up to one corvette mission.)

[TehRic]

So the concept of levels & sub-maps was scrapped completely? That needs updating on the Xenowiki, then, unless that's being saved for future builds. As far as variety goes, I'm in the same boat as you, so I'll need to play a bit more then, now that the higher tier alien ships are unlocked.

I suggest adding a few more maps for the very small scout missions, then. It seemed to cycle between 4 different layouts, and while I appreciate the detail put in, it'd be nice to see enough to reduce insane repetition. One can excuse one or two repeats of a map in a single play-through, but once you've done a particular map 5 times after 10 missions, the twitching begins.

[GizmoGomez]

Let me back up a bit:

That's what I think is correct, I could be totally off. But as far as I've been able to understand it, that is what they're doing.

I don't know how many light scout maps there are, but since there are several different terrain presets (like, industrial, Middle Earth (I mean East), arctic, etc) there are actually a lot of maps, they're just spread out a lot.

[TehRic]

Completely understandable. I would like an official word in, though, since you seem a bit uncertain. I definitely enjoy the variety of terrain types. The potential makes my head spin when compared to old-school X-COM map layouts. Is there also any word about compatibility with current player-submitted maps?

Cheers, Gomez.

[GizmoGomez]

No problem, happy to help TehRic.

Also, go ahead and call me Gizmo. My name isn't Gomez anyway, I just picked it up last time I was in Mexico.

[erutan]

My understanding is older maps are incompatible due to changes to the submapping / etc. I'm not sure which version of the alpha works with the beta, but it would be pretty recent. I imagine things will be settling down structurally now and good player submitted maps could be allowed into the game etc to increase the rotation.

I don't know about the semi-random maps either. It is pretty bothersome, but the mapping system was revamped (again) recently so the level of available maps will only increase.

[TehRic]

Well heck, even if the maps aren't going to be utilizing any sort of built-in randomization, just being able to have the freedom to create & share maps will suffice. Give me a compilation of the best from the community of each tileset combined with the default maps we're given when the game officially launches and I'm a happy soldier!

[erutan]

Chris has actively asked for help from the community in mapping before - it's just that since old maps had be scrapped once or twice that has slowed down... I'm pretty sure there will be fan made maps in the game (as long as he likes their layout etc). If point releases can include more fan maps it could really help with the longevity of the game without having to worry about mods... something Firaxis should have considered.

[TehRic]

Totally agreed. The moment I realized that the new X-COM not only lacked randomization, but that Firaxis didn't toss in any form of toolset/steam-workshop application, its replay-value dimmed considerably for me. It's a large percentage of the reason why Xenonauts has a lot more potential in its longevity.

[GizmoGomez]

Ha, how about a shotgun maze? Like, it's a total maze, and everyone gets a shotgun, carbine, whatever. That'd be fun, huh? (no reapers, that'd be evil.)

[Sathra]

Ah, a TFTD-style map. They'd be horrible with the current reaction fire stuff, but when that gets balanced...I'd enjoy it. Especially since you get to blow annoying walls away.

Actually, now that I think about it the alien bases are pretty close.

[Gauddlike]

The layouts are being designed to follow a theme for each map type now so industrial maps will be mainly closed in while desert maps will be generally more open and so on.

The main difference is that the submaps for things like fields are now just blank floors.

All additional details like hay bales or whatever are added on top as a props layer and walls also have their own layer.

In the older versions when the community maps were produced the submaps had to be designed with all props and walls built in and these additional layers were not present.

Props do appear to always be present when placed though, even if it does select from a list.

I think I may add a blank to some of the props lists so that there is a chance nothing will be placed.

The levels currently in the game still use submaps so you can still get randomised layouts.

Chris has only added two levels for each UFO type so randomisation is limited.

It appears though that there is also only one version of each building submap so you will always see the same one at the moment.

It is still possible to add multiple submaps to each folder for the game to choose one randomly as far as I can tell.

[GizmoGomez]

Oh, okay, so it is better than I thought. I would enjoy some variety.

Ha, I had the same terror mission twice in a row, except the first was night with sebillians and reapers (oh my gosh scary), and the second was daytime with caesans and disk guys (androns, right?).

[Sathra]

The disks are just called Drones. Light Drones most likely (single-tile floating disks)

Androns are...well, androids. They have legs and can take a few shots to drop (depending on weapon and rank)

[GizmoGomez]

Oh, gotcha. (Going to edit a post I just made to save face, haha)

[Gauddlike]

I do plan to knock up a few more submaps and possibly a few more levels in my spare time.

The only problem with that is I don't really have any at the moment what with my dissertation and exams coming up.

Should have done the degree when I was younger and could stay up all night catching up on missed work

[TehRic]

Good to catch up on this. Thanks for clarifying things, Gauddlike.

[Chris]

The sub-map randomisation does still work, but it'll only ever add minor variation (like the interior layout of a building etc, or the colour of a car). It's less useful than it would originally have been as we've now put more fine control of object placement into the Level Editor.

We probably should add more levels, but they're time consuming to make and they're not game-critical right now, so they'll come later. Sadly there's already 12 different light scout maps (representing about a week of my time) but you're right that it's still not enough variation...which is a bit mind-bending. Perhaps we'll need about 30 in the final version?

Either way I'm hoping the community will chip in a little bit. It's more than possible we'll need well over a hundred levels in the final game, each one painstakingly hand-built...

[crusherven]

After school is out I'd probably be happy to tinker around with the level editor, and I'm sure there's plenty of other people better at it than me.

Edit: Oh, hey look, there's even a forum for it.

Edited April 16, 2013 by crusherven

[Jean-Luc]

Ok, so if I understood this correctly the original sub-map randomization where the map sections would get shuffled around (jig-saw puzzle-like) is gone and maps are largely "set" now with only certain props like hay bales or cars being (somewhat) randomly positioned?

That's kinda unfortunate. Good thing there's an editor.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Jean-Luc

[Gauddlike]

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the current system allow even more variation rather than less?

If I am looking at the maps right (and I haven't done enough testing to be certain) placing the different objects on different layers allows them to be randomised individually.

I will use the example of a 10x10 field with a wall round it and a house in the middle.

In the old system this could only be swapped for another 10x10 object, maybe a field with a different house or an empty field surrounded by a damaged wall.

In the new system the 10x10 field can be swapped in the same way.

The (5x5) house is placed on top separately so this can also be swapped for a different 5x5 house from the pool.

The walls around the field are placed in another layer so can all be selected from a different random pool.

The props in the field, let's say hay bales, are placed in yet another layer and therefore can all be selected from yet another random pool.

So for a little bit of extra work over making the original three 10x10 fields (house1, house2, wall) you can have 3 field options.

Plus each of those three will have the choice of two different houses.

Plus each field with each house type will have the option of whole or damaged wall sections.

Plus each of those options will have a choice from the different props placed within the field.

A 5x5 house could just as easily be a pond, ruined building, rock formation etc as long as it is 5x5.

*edit* Oh and also would adding a blank version of the props with a completely transparent image effectively give a chance of no prop being placed to allow for more randomisation of prop placement?

Edited April 16, 2013 by Gauddlike

[Jean-Luc]

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the current system allow even more variation rather than less?

This is what's confusing me:

The sub-map randomisation does still work, but it'll only ever add minor variation (like the interior layout of a building etc, or the colour of a car). It's less useful than it would originally have been as we've now put more fine control of object placement into the Level Editor.

What I get from this is that only small elements within the sub-maps are randomized but that the placement of the sub-map itself is static. Maybe I'm just being stupid and I certainly hope I'm wrong.

My only experience comes from watching Yeti's LP and he's had the same identical farm map every time. I haven't noticed any variation, big or small. Also Chris seems to be talking in terms of entire maps (and the making thereof) rather than sub-map categories. Originally there wouldn't be a "farm map" but farm sub-maps/sections that are reshuffled for every mission.

Also,

So the concept of levels & sub-maps was scrapped completely?

Let me back up a bit: That's what I think is correct, I could be totally off. But as far as I've been able to understand it, that is what they're doing.

So what's going on?

Edited April 16, 2013 by Jean-Luc

[Gauddlike]

Let me quickly go back over a slightly simplified version of the original method Xenonauts used.

You would create a level, which was basically a grid.

Each section of that grid had a submap placed in it.

If you placed a 10x10 submap in the top right corner (say factory1 on an industrial level) then that submap would be static.

The randomisation came in when the game loaded up the level.

It would look at the level outline and see that it needed to place factory1.

It would then look in the maps/industrial/factory1 folder and randomly choose a layout from within that folder.

If you had 100 options in there it would likely take a while before you got a duplicate, if you only had 1 option then you would always have that same layout in that same spot.

In the farm maps you saw there was only one layout available in each submap so there was no variation.

The exact same level would have had a huge amount of variation if you increased the number of submap layouts available to the selection process.

You can actually see if on the current maps if you want an example.

Go to assets/maps/town/ground/concrete10x10 and copy the three files there into the maps/middleeast/ground/grass10x10 folder.

Run the level editor and open up the middle east tileset then run the middleeast_lightscout1 map.

Look at the screen on the left and you will notice the whole ground level is covered in grass10x10 submaps.

Click the button in the bottom right named 'open level viewer' and you should see that some of the grass tiles have been replaced by concrete tiles.

The difference between the two systems is that in the old one that tile would have needed to contain every item placed on it while the new system places them independently.

Don't forget to either back up your files or remove the files you copy across or you will be stuck with random concrete on middle east maps.

[TehRic]

After reading Chris' post, I did come to realize the subtle changes (changes of car colors & the types of cover). I didn't notice them, at first, since I was more focused on seeing the sort of randomization I anticipated (i.e. a same city with a warehouse being swapped for a small park with some benches or something).

I can elaborate on an example of two levels at this stage of development where the limitations didn't bother me on one as much as the other. Levels like the early snow mission containing two small houses & plenty of cover doesn't bother me, since random placement of enemies & cover will effectively make the experience different each time.

However, there's one particular early-mission in a city-like setting where your chinook lands in a corner that is fenced off, next to a parking lot. My problem with the latter arrangement, when compared to the former, is that I get a meta-game'ish feel to this area, since the enemy ship is on the other side of the fence, and there's only one way to pass through that fence (unless I blow the fence up, which is always fun). Because of this, the beginning of the mission starts off fairly safe without consequence after I've cleared the chinook's perimeter. Instead of having my guys move in a slow manner (saving TU's), I find myself having them all run towards the exit of the fenced area without any sort of concern.

Bottom line of this comparison: In the snow mission, the intensity remains from start to finish each play-through. As for the mission with the fenced corner you start in, I find that the intensity only occurs once you pass the fenced half. Perhaps the fences can be randomly swapped out? I know you'd want to preserve the legitimacy of the fence, since it serves to separate the parking lot from the other zone (large warehouse/construction zone?)

I could go take some screenshots of the area I was referring to if there's uncertainty to the zone I was referring to.