My thoughts of the milestone 5 (ongoing)

[vaBchRog]

On 12/16/2024 at 9:46 AM, ventuswings said:

Have you reached phase 2 yet? Additional funding becomes available then, and selling junk helps.

I like delegation mechanic, but I wonder if it could be indirect penalty that allow players to make decision according to their comfort level by increasing mission risk (such as alien stat bonus that scales with more mission, representing alien's growing familiarity with crashlanding scenarios) rather than direct panic penalty.

When does Phase 2 start?

[Chris]

1 hour ago, Grobobobo said:

Let's say that after a crash the funding nation confiscates half of the UFO resource yield + All alien weapons. You still get to keep corpses and captives, so it should be mostly on par with the bounty.

Having half the items (rounded down) taken by the local region is an interesting idea, yeah. It would require some coder time, though, so it's probably not something we can implement until after Christmas given we'll be spending this week fixing up bugs.

[svidangel]

Despite the bugs I am really liking M5. I can't comment on anything past the funding change since that keeps crashing for me, but I liked the slow build for the first couple of months and the variety of cleaner missions. I always have needed to use at least one Op to reduce global panic despite maxing the -doomsday from missions, which I think is fine - I still can unlock 3 *supporters (250) each time before hitting the 2month crash wall. 

On 12/15/2024 at 2:16 AM, Skitso said:

Geoscape UI needs to give some feedback for the player to know when and how much the panic levels rise. Flash the increasing red panic bar brighter (with a sound effect) and keep the added part brighter for a while.

Haven't reached this point, but I like the idea - possibly an outline for each region that is color coded or contains information (solid, dashed, dotted).

On 12/15/2024 at 2:16 AM, Skitso said:

Engineering screen currently shows how many of each item I currently have unequipped. Wouldn't it be more relevant to know how many I have them in total?

Yes. This.

On 12/14/2024 at 5:39 AM, Skitso said:

Requesting exotic materials with operation points seems out of place at the very beginning of the game when even a specialist organization like Xenonauts with a super scientist have only just found them.

Yeah, I haven't used this but I agree.

Speaking of out of place, the civvies making alien monster noises when dying or hit is a little weird. Any chance that is on a list somewhere to update?

[svidangel]

2 hours ago, vaBchRog said:

When does Phase 2 start?

Month 3/end of month 2, when your funding comes online and there is a big revelation. And where quite a few of the games have been crashing.

[Skitso]

It annoys me that Cleaners are not explained to the player in any way. The first time Cleaners are mentioned is by the chief scientist in a tutorial dialog before the Atlas base part of the tutorial begins. The line goes like: "Those appear to be Cleaner vehicles". And from there on the game just assumes the player knows who they are and the whole comment is made in a way that everything about them is already known by everyone. Like chief scientist replies later in the tutorial to a question about teams chances of ending up dead if they surrender to the Cleaners: "Based on everything we know about the cleaners? Approximately one hundred percent." Everyone seems to know the Cleaners but the player.

Before we had the new intro video we had a small prologue text (that I loved) that went like this:

"It is 2009. Berlin wall still stands. The cold war has grown ever colder. A clandestine organization called the Xenonauts secretly gathers intelligence on a shadowy threat looming over humanity. Sightings of unidentified flying objects and unknown beings have grown steadily more common. A strong correlation emerges between these reported sightings and rising international tensions, but those reporting or investigating alien activity frequently disappear without a trace. Mysterious figures known only as the "Cleaners" are believed responsible. Mere weeks remain to prepare for the coming invasion. Our species stands little chance of survival should the Xenonaut fail to unite humanity."

This is all that is needed. Some background info of them. Otherwise it's just too vague to get me interested.

Edited December 21, 2024 by Skitso

[Skitso]

Objective update: Doom counter explains the aliens' goals too clearly. How could the player know that the aliens are trying to start a nuclear war at that point? I think it would be more exciting if this kind of plot twists were left for the player to understand and find out while playing the game. It also tells specifically how infiltrators raise the doomsday counter. Player doesn't know anything about infiltrators at that point. Are they Cleaners? What Cleaners are? There's too much info at the very beginning of the game as it is and can be too daunting for a first timer. Supporters/infiltrators shouldn't even be in the game this early IMO and should be introduced only after Cleaner HQ is done / Phase 2 starts.

I would change the doomsday counter popup text to be much more vague and avoid mentioning aliens at this point. Just lay out the facts: tensions are raising, nuclear war is imminent and nobody knows why and it's up to Xenonauts to find out what's going on and prevent nuclear war from occuring. This would also be a good place to tell about the cleaners. The original prologue text I posted above would make a good starting point thematically.

Edited December 21, 2024 by Skitso

[CaptainSPrice]

Make standard campaing/balance it then create Long War mode for streamers(hardcore) players with options for example no training stations allowed + you gain only stats from completing missions like it was in X1. Thats how i feel about it. Because literly people sitting in base and gain stats its kinda OP.

Edited December 21, 2024 by CaptainSPrice
edit

[gG-Unknown]

On 12/15/2024 at 9:16 AM, Skitso said:

Tactical camera returning to it's previous position after AI turn is more annoying than useful. Usually I want to react to the stuff that happened on the AI turn, not go to somewhere where I did something on my last turn. Please revert this to the old system or make it a toggle. 

I was asking for this QoL feature, and I am glad it  is applied.

However, I know you have  most gameplay hours of X2 on this planet, I take your feedback seriously.

Old system, is wierd for  new players or mid-experienced player, and requires repeatable unnecessary mouse moves. It  might suit experts, but it iis annoying for rest of audience.

On the end of turn, =

Original system : camera stays at the last  opponent

Current system : camera moves back to the position where EndOfTurn button is pressed

MyNewProposal : camera moves to the nearest soldier

Result is, you (the Pro-player) can make an immediate response, as you want, becouse you see your nearest soldier. All other players are saved from repeated pain "find your own soldier on the turn beginning"

 

Does it work  or you ?

Edited December 21, 2024 by gG-Unknown

[Skitso]

5 minutes ago, gG-Unknown said:

Does it work  or you ?

Hmm, I think my issue is that the game takes the control away from me for that 1-2 seconds. On/Off toggle is fine IMO.

[gG-Unknown]

2 hours ago, Skitso said:

 Player doesn't know anything about infiltrators at that point. Are they Cleaners? What Cleaners are? There's too much info at the very beginning of the game as it is and can be too daunting for a first timer. Supporters/infiltrators shouldn't even be in the game this early IMO and should be introduced only after Cleaner HQ is done / Phase 2 starts.

Agree, Doomsday counter should be introduced in phase 2. As result of initial interaction. Let story be uncovered,  drop by drop. Rather  than poured all in the first second. Gradation is used in theatre show for ages.

[gG-Unknown]

1 minute ago, Skitso said:

Hmm, I think my issue is that the game takes the control away from me for that 1-2 seconds. On/Off toggle is fine IMO.

The camera is moving by itself whole  AI turn which takes 5 - 30 seconds. Why are you triggered by last added 1-2  seconds ?

[Skitso]

1 minute ago, gG-Unknown said:

Agree, Doomsday counter should be introduced in phase 2. As result of initial interaction. Let story be uncovered,  drop by drop. Rather  than poured all in the first second. Gradation is used in theatre show for ages.

I'm fine for the Doomsday counter to start at the beginning of the game. But let only alien activity raise it at first and then introduce supporters/infiltrators a bit later.

[Skitso]

On 12/21/2024 at 3:18 PM, gG-Unknown said:

The camera is moving by itself whole  AI turn which takes 5 - 30 seconds. Why are you triggered by last added 1-2  seconds ?

Probably because I've played so much that I'm accustomed to the certain tempo. 

EDIT: Actually I think what makes it feel annoying is that you get the mouse control back for a second after AI turn, just to lose it again as the automatic camera movement kicks in.

Edited December 22, 2024 by Skitso

[Skitso]

One thing about cover system: Cover is not taken into account if the shooter is adjacent to it. It would be good to refine this rule so that if the target is also adjacent to the same cover and the said cover is larger than 1 tile, the cover value is taken into account. This is to remove the unfair case where shots are fired from another side of a low train cart, radar, computer terminal or other large prop that currently grants 0 protection in such situations.

Edited December 23, 2024 by Skitso

[Skitso]

Continuing on the same subject (cover) with the old issue I've talked a lot before:

The current cover system is elegant, intuitive and simple enough, and it's a much more realistic approach than what modern X-com and similar games offer (where an object only offers protection if you are right next to it), but it fails to model a situation where the target hunkers right behind a cover. For now, the only benefit of being close to a cover in Xenonauts 2 is for the cover to offer protection from incoming shots in a much wider angle, while the amount of protection the object provides does not change.

The issue is that all the objects in the game obscure shots equally, regardless of whether the target is right next to it, or further away. It's completely irrelevant if you are hunkering behind a waist high concrete wall, or if the said concrete wall just happens to be somewhere between the target and the shooter. It just doesn't make sense and makes tactical choices too easy. It lessens the tactical relevance of where you move your units, as there's almost always some objects in the line of fire (which means you are as good as in cover anyways).

It feels too simplifield gameplay wise if a rock for example reduces the same 20% of the shot accuracy if it's 10 tiles away of the target or if the said target is kneeling right behind it. It would add a nice additional layer of gameplay and tactics to think about unit positioning if being kneeled right next to a cover gave an extra boost in cover value. (Cover value x2, but not higher than 80% for example)

As a sidenote, it'd be cool if when shooting a target in cover, most missed shots would hit the cover in question. This would cause covers to break faster and force players into a more mobile gameplay.

Edited December 29, 2024 by Skitso

[gG-Unknown]

On 12/21/2024 at 2:20 PM, Skitso said:

Probably because I've played so much that I'm accustomed to the certain tempo. 

EDIT: Actually I think what makes it feel annoying is that you get the mouse control back for a second after AI turn, just to lose it again as the automatic camera movement kicks in.

I can not notice that ON/OFF back again moment you describe.

UI is hidden until complete AI turn is finished.

But mouse pointer is visible, perhaps you get itch and try to click pre-maturely before UI shows back again ?

Do you think that hide mouse pointer for whole AI turn would be better ? (just make clear that  player is on the back seat for a while)

Edited December 23, 2024 by gG-Unknown

[Skitso]

I would like the UFO crews to have some random surprise variation from time to time. Add a reaper, andron, extra mentarch or servitor to really mix things up. Not knowing always exactly what you are against would make missions feel that much more intense and I would always need to be prepared for something unexpected - even if it's only once in a 5 or 6 UFOs

Edited December 29, 2024 by Skitso

[KOKON]

Yeah, I don't like idle research too in the very beginning of the game. Also if there are not enough techs to research you kinda forced to research secondary techs like robo-car. Without any alternative. Idk if there is not enough techs may be allow me to buy frozen sectoid corpses on the black market from Japaneese at a double price and study them.

[Skitso]

Game needs few more objective based, panic reducing missions in the style of abduction missions for variations sake. Abduction missions are nice and all, but we do need more opportunities to lower panic and having too many abduction missions can start to feel too repetitive. Please add a couple of cleaner style objective based mission types from phase 2 forward to give more opportunities to lower region panic. These missions could start spawning in a region when it's panic reaches 80+

Edited December 29, 2024 by Skitso

[Xeferah]

Around turn 120 on commander, but so far the research and the UFO types go too fast. Let me explain, it's not that I can't finish the missions, that's not the issue. It's the issue that I get upgrades so fast that I can barely enjoy them before I get the next upgrade. This could be solved by adding more cleaner gameplay back in and delaying new types of UFO's with a month or so? I do miss those cleaner missions a bit. But as it stands now, I can get the new magnetic weapon upgrades, and before I finished them for my squad I can already build lasers. Thus I skip some mag weapons and make the rest for lasers, and before I even made a full laser set, I can already research gauss weapons!

What I do like are the changes in random damage. I can still get hit with very high damage, but at least I won't see a random 1-shots on full health-full armor units (so far!).

 

I'm not yet sure if I like the changes that we now need to pay for the UFO missions after 2, but at least a landed UFO does not cost points. I expected to get a serious lack of alloys and alenium, but so far I'm surprised I didn't. I do still think that just a cash reward is not good enough: we mostly do those missions for materials and XP. It's not really bad per se, but I'm also not completely content with it. Before the changes I would only give up on downed UFO's when I had too many wounded soldiers. I'm not sure yet what to think of it.

[pwd]

I agree that it's already very challenging to reach all the tubes (on veteran) and that increasing the cost would be too much.

I did observe one full health full armour unit get one-shotted, but only one.

I personally prefer not to go after all the downed UFOs. Around day 400 and I have not delegated cruisers or harvesters yet.  Therefore I like the mechanic that it costs op points to do so. There are terror missions every month as well as plot missions so I still engage in plenty of tactical combat.

[Xeferah]

54 minutes ago, pwd said:

I agree that it's already very challenging to reach all the tubes (on veteran) and that increasing the cost would be too much.

I did observe one full health full armour unit get one-shotted, but only one.

I personally prefer not to go after all the downed UFOs. Around day 400 and I have not delegated cruisers or harvesters yet.  Therefore I like the mechanic that it costs op points to do so. There are terror missions every month as well as plot missions so I still engage in plenty of tactical combat.

- Yeah, on commander you really need to rush to get all 10. It's possible, but very hard to do and you most likely lose a few soldiers in the process. Adding an extra TU cost would make it impossible, which I disagree with. And adding an extra turn to the mission would make it too easy, so I think it's prefect the way it is now.

- Quick question: do you remember the hp of the soldier? I specifically removed all soldiers with below average hp when they're untrained.

- I half agree here. Yes, the idea is good and I think it should stay. But the serious lack of alloys and allenium needs to be addressed. I have 2.5M cash to spend, got two bases set up, four phantoms and I have 3 downed UFO's to visit, IF I had the CP to do so. If I could have raided them (or otherwise could have chosen to receive alloys and allenium) I could have upgraded my weapons, made some more armor, do base upgrades, etc. I mean, I have the option to make the bigger chopper to carry 16 soldiers, but that would mean making 7 more armors, 7 more weapons and making the aircraft. That's around 150 alloys/allenium I would guess. If I use CP to collect them diplomatically, that would take months!

[pwd]

I don't remember the HP. Presumably not high. Definitely over 40. Probably over 50. I had every soldier in vanguard armour so it's not like he was in it because he was one of the best ones or I was aware of his stats specifically. It was on the UOO raid.

[Skitso]

On 12/29/2024 at 4:11 PM, Skitso said:

Game needs few more objective based, panic reducing missions in the style of abduction missions for variations sake. Abduction missions are nice and all, but we do need more opportunities to lower panic and having too many abduction missions can start to feel too repetitive. Please add a couple of cleaner style objective based mission types from phase 2 forward to give more opportunities to lower region panic. These missions could start spawning in a region when it's panic reaches 80+

Continuing on this.. The geoscape feels too empty in general. There's almost never asituation where I need to choose which mission to take. I enjoyed the added freedom of choice in the earlier versions where the game spawned multiple cleaner missions at the same time.

Currently, at any given time, there might be one or two simultaneous crash sites, a terror site, an abduction site or an alien base, but mostly there's always just one mission to choose from. Spawning multiple simultaneous missions (that might not even cause a lot if any panic damage) around the globe in high panic regions with a short response window would force me to make choises where I need to lower the panic most.

These kinds of panic reducing missions would definitely be a great possibility to make geoscape gameplay more organic and varied, add some highly requested mission variety to the game and at the same time offer a nice way to give the player more agency and chances to be proactive in lowering the regional panic. (instead of just spending OP's, which is currently quite passive and one dimensional gameplay element)

Edited January 8, 2025 by Skitso

[FOARP]

On 12/29/2024 at 5:40 PM, Xeferah said:

Around turn 120 on commander, but so far the research and the UFO types go too fast. Let me explain, it's not that I can't finish the missions, that's not the issue. It's the issue that I get upgrades so fast that I can barely enjoy them before I get the next upgrade. This could be solved by adding more cleaner gameplay back in and delaying new types of UFO's with a month or so? I do miss those cleaner missions a bit. But as it stands now, I can get the new magnetic weapon upgrades, and before I finished them for my squad I can already build lasers. Thus I skip some mag weapons and make the rest for lasers, and before I even made a full laser set, I can already research gauss weapons!

What I do like are the changes in random damage. I can still get hit with very high damage, but at least I won't see a random 1-shots on full health-full armor units (so far!).

 

I'm not yet sure if I like the changes that we now need to pay for the UFO missions after 2, but at least a landed UFO does not cost points. I expected to get a serious lack of alloys and alenium, but so far I'm surprised I didn't. I do still think that just a cash reward is not good enough: we mostly do those missions for materials and XP. It's not really bad per se, but I'm also not completely content with it. Before the changes I would only give up on downed UFO's when I had too many wounded soldiers. I'm not sure yet what to think of it.

Agree that the weapons-generations come too quick. You should have a good two or three months with each one after researching them so they're worth doing. Also manufacturing small-arms takes too long which impacts your decision to adopt new weapons after you've researched them: I'd reduce the time to manufacture rifles etc. by about half.

Also agree that there should be more cleaner missions, and indeed more missions against the cleaners. Maybe have a "cleaner reinforcements" mechanic (just one lot of reinforcements armed with pistols and SMGs, not infinite) for crash-sites until the cleaner HQ is gone. It would also be cool to have some tougher cleaners which appear in low numbers (e.g., a terminator-style cyborg infiltrator unit which you have to use explosives to destroy).