Explosive Rockets capture enemies

[Infinitum]

As per thread title. Hitting an adjacent tile gives a decent chance of incapacitating aliens (Caesan and Sebilian alike) by the smoke generated. This kind of breaks the research sequence as stun weapons become superflous, and gives super early access to advanced medpacks and damage bonuses. I'm guessing not intended?

[GizmoGomez]

Well, from a realism standpoint it makes sense. Getting nearly hit by a rocket would stun someone pretty bad.

I'd think the stun weapons are for capturing them without causing damage to them, whereas the rocket trick could kill them, or destroy stuff around them. For example, lobbing a stun grenade into the engine room isn't the same as firing a rocket in there.

[Max_Caine]

Oh yes, very intended. Sort-of. Explosive rockets do a hella lotta stun damage. 90 points of sun damage at point-of impact! That could use dialling down.

[StellarRat]

Oh yes, very intended. Sort-of. Explosive rockets do a hella lotta stun damage. 90 points of sun damage at point-of impact! That could use dialling down.

Could someone please try the demo charge now and see if it blows up a wall? I'm at work and can't try it. It should work now.

[GizmoGomez]

Since the C4 info is stored in an xml file that was not changed with either of the hotfixes, it's still nerfed. Nothing's changed.

I find that changing the damage to 145 works well. The radius at 1.5 is too short imo, and 2.5 is too long. I'll try 2 to see what happens.

My goal is for it to be focused enough to destroy the wall it's on, break the walls on either side, and not have any damage leak out further than that. That way you can put two on a wall with an empty wall tile inbetween them, and it'll create a 3 wide hole for a hunter (or other) to drive through. I'll keep you posted. (Maybe make a thread in the modding section for C4?)

[StellarRat]

Since the C4 info is stored in an xml file that was not changed with either of the hotfixes, it's still nerfed. Nothing's changed.

So, the change log is misleading:

" •Incendiary damage (most explosives except grenades deal incendiary damage) now do double damage against terrain, but normal damage against units...so rockets are better at clearing terrain now!"

[Max_Caine]

Looking at the xml, C4 does kinetic damage, but that can be fixed. If its type is set to incendiary, that should double its damage done. I believe the incendiary damage multiplier was added to the main game code.

[StellarRat]

Looking at the xml, C4 does kinetic damage, but that can be fixed. If its type is set to incendiary, that should double its damage done. I believe the incendiary damage multiplier was added to the main game code.

Well, I'm not going to argue that one then. I wouldn't want it to do incendiary damage. We'll just have to talk Chris into upping the kinetic to 145 like you suggested. Since it's an entry weapon you don't want block the hole you just made with a bunch of smoke and fire. That also gives it different characteristics from the the rocket which is a good thing IMO. Edited April 11, 2013 by StellarRat

[GizmoGomez]

The accuracy and range of the C4 would need to change as as well, since it's more of a placed explosive then a CoD-style tossed explosive. I dunno how the accuracy formula works (it needs to be redone anyway, based on what I've read) but would a really short range and high accuracy (like, 5 w/ 80%) work well for that? I dunno, you (StellarRat) seem to be more knowledgeable about that sort of thing.

The radius should be shorter than 2.5 as well, to avoid damaging troops sitting away from the charge. 2 should be the magic number, but I'll test it to make sure.

[StellarRat]

The accuracy and range of the C4 would need to change as as well, since it's more of a placed explosive then a CoD-style tossed explosive. I dunno how the accuracy formula works (it needs to be redone anyway, based on what I've read) but would a really short range and high accuracy (like, 5 w/ 80%) work well for that? I dunno, you (StellarRat) seem to be more knowledgeable about that sort of thing.

The radius should be shorter than 2.5 as well, to avoid damaging troops sitting away from the charge. 2 should be the magic number, but I'll test it to make sure.

Yeah, try <props range="4"> and <accuracy="80"> a range of 4 is about 75 feet. That seems a reasonable distance to throw a big square object with any accuracy. Also, the stun damage and suppression should be at least as good as a rocket. I'd just load up a backpack full of them and tosses them at different ranges to see how they work.

[GizmoGomez]

75 feet? I thought it was measured in tiles. As in, 4 tiles. Each tile is 1.6 meters, right? So almost six and a half meters. That's not even 20 feet. Am I just wrong about the range measurement, then?

EDIT: Okay, it's just over 20 feet. My unit conversion was a little off. Still, not even close to 75 feet.

Edited April 11, 2013 by GizmoGomez

[StellarRat]

75 feet? I thought it was measured in tiles. As in, 4 tiles. Each tile is 1.6 meters, right? So almost six and a half meters. That's not even 20 feet. Am I just wrong about the range measurement, then?

OOPS! Yeah, 5 tiles! Doh! I was converting to inches! LOL! We always have to keep in mind weapon ranges are really compressed too. A shotgun should be able to be effective out to 31 tiles, but it's value in Xenonauts is 7. Edited April 11, 2013 by StellarRat

[GizmoGomez]

Oh dear, that'd be bad. Haha makes a lot more sense now.

[StellarRat]

Oh dear, that'd be bad. Haha makes a lot more sense now.

Well, I tried it with 145 radius 2.0, accuracy 80 and range 5. Seems to work like I'd expect. It always takes down at least one tile of concrete wall. Two charges next to each other didn't create a three tile hole. I wonder if one is destroying the other before it goes off?

[Gauddlike]

Its possible, did you try them as incendiary to try out the new mechanic?

[StellarRat]

Its possible, did you try them as incendiary to try out the new mechanic?

No, I thought they were much more useful as kinetic. The whole point is to make a gap to move through. If it's filled with smoke and fire that defeats the purpose at least for a while.

[GizmoGomez]

Did you put them not next to each other, like this, [.][.][X][X][.][.]

but like this [.][.][X][.][X][.][.]?

The latter is what I was advocating. That way one charge doesn't affect the other, but the 2.0 radius extends damage to the wall in between them and destroys that as well, producing [.][.]{}{}{}[.][.]

[.] - whole wall

{} - destroyed wall

[X] - wall w/ charge on it

[StellarRat]

Did you put them not next to each other, like this, [.][.][X][X][.][.]

but like this [.][.][X][.][X][.][.]?

The latter is what I was advocating. That way one charge doesn't affect the other, but the 2.0 radius extends damage to the wall in between them and destroys that as well, producing [.][.]{}{}{}[.][.]

[.] - whole wall

{} - destroyed wall

[X] - wall w/ charge on it

Unfortunately, I used the first method, which I think was my mistake. I will try again with spacing. I have a feeling that will work the way I'm hoping.

[Gauddlike]

Remember that there is a set of values for smoke chance and fire chance.

You could try incendiary with zero on both of those.

[Max_Caine]

Also interestingly, alien armour for incendiary-type damage is the same as for kinetic or energy. But human armour tends to focus more on kinetic and energy types. The more you know! JOOOOOOOEEEEEE!

[Chris]

Explosives, including C4, should be incendiary damage (it's not a fragmentation weapon like a grenade). The idea for them is that they are meant to be good at flattening structures but shouldn't be abusable to murder even tough aliens.

The armour values might need some looking at too. Human armour should probably offer the same incendiary protection as it does kinetic protection.

[erutan]

C4 incendiary w/ 5% fire and 15% smoke or something sounds like it'd work perfectly.

[Gauddlike]

On top of that you can also change the smoke it generates.

Make a new smoke type (gas_gc.xml) that has the properties you would prefer and then point the C4 at it.

You could have a type of smoke generated that will only last one turn and be really thin, or really thick and last for several turns.

[GizmoGomez]

I would say thin smoke, if any, should be generated by C4. It shouldn't have any stun damage either, as it's light and thin. But, it would create a smoke screen, so shooting through it would have accuracy penalties. That way, you have to actually go through the smoke to engage the enemies with any kind of precision. Same would apply to them, so they can't just shoot through the smoke and slaughter the breaching team before they even breach. (although, the mutual surprise thing should apply there.) C4 might benefit from a very light stun effect, to simulate the surprise that comes from an explosive going off right next to you. It would have a very short range, though, 2 tiles max.

Also, I think the range for C4 should be 2 tiles, not 2.5. The extra bleed off is annoying, and doesn't accomplish anything besides damaging my troops. Besides, they're shaped charges, aren't they? They wouldn't have extra bleed off as far as three meters away.