Do you use pistols at all?

[Beardage]

Concerning Pistols I have to quote that god awful AvP film "I'd rather have one and not need it, than need one and not have it." Pistols are useful, I find that your gunners will be thankful when they've moved and have 44 AP left, run face first into a ceasan, it takes very little TU's to whip out the pistol and let off a good few shots... saved some of my gunners hide's a good few times

[crusherven]

According to figures released by the Department of Defense, the average number of rounds expended in Vietnam to kill one enemy solder with the M-16 was 50,000. The average number of rounds expended by U.S. military snipers to kill one enemy soldier was 1.3 rounds. That's a cost-difference of $23,000 per kill for the average soldier, vs. $0.17 per kill for the military sniper.

According to the U.S. Army, the average soldier will hit a man-sized target 10 percent of the time at 300 meters using the M16A2 rifle.

But that was vietnam. I wonder what the averages are now

Not to get into a political discussion, but it says a lot about what was wrong with the Army in Vietnam that they were thinking in terms of dollars per kill.

[Gauddlike]

I doubt the modern army is much different in many civilised countries.

They may not use the terminology in public but I would bet it is there.

I would also imagine that similar terminology gets used when discussing the cost of improved body armour, better armoured vehicles etc for their own troops.

[thothkins]

the average number of rounds expended in Vietnam to kill one enemy solder with the M-16 was 50,000. The average number of rounds expended by U.S. military snipers to kill one enemy soldier was 1.3 rounds. That's a cost-difference of $23,000 per kill for the average soldier, vs. $0.17 per kill for the military sniper.

They say life is cheap, but have they done the maths...oh, they have.

[lemm]

I give a couple people rocket launchers and everyone else gets sniper rifles. The AR, pistol, and shotgun are worthless.

[erutan]

@lemm - it depends. I'm debating the LMG, I feel a grendier with a lot of flashbangs might be more useful. while most of my kills are with sniper/rockets, having 3 AR people gives some flexibility when moving forward (and they're carrying shotguns for breaches - i find shotguns useful for UFO interiors). One of my AR types is tied in kills with my HW crew.

re: shields - perhaps the shields are meant for tier 1/2 etc before you get the predator armor?

[crusherven]

I have to vehemently disagree that LMG's are useless. By the time I got laser weaponry, my heavies can put 3-4 rounds into a target in just 32 TUs. A sniper can't even come close to that, and the heavy has the advantage of suppression. The heavy laser might be too accurate, though. AR's and shotguns are both great at close range. If you meet a Sebilian at close range with a rocket launcher or sniper rifle, you're probably toast. The AR and shotgun excel in that situation.

[StellarRat]

I have to vehemently disagree that LMG's are useless.

I agree with your vehement disagreement. If anything the LMGs are too powerful. They have great range, good suppression, and good killing power. They are currently my GO TO weapon when I need to put down a threat with certainty. If it doesn't kill them it suppresses them. I like. Edited April 12, 2013 by StellarRat

[thothkins]

I'm still finding uses for all of the weapons in this build. I equip LMGs sparingly until some decent strength/ time units are available, but they are very useful after that. They still have a use before that, I just don't quite get as much mileage out of them right at the start.

[StellarRat]

I was going to add that ALL the auto fire weapons are more useful now since the spread is fixed for the most part. But it especially helped the LMG. You can now employ them from the back of the squad without killing your own guys. Well, everyone, but thothkins anyway.

[thothkins]

what?! my finger just slipped on the trigger. What?!

[Beardage]

I am finding the heavy suppresion weapons a tad too powerful IMO, I find my gunners improve nearly every mission without fail however the poor riflemen and assault hardly have a job above spotting bait for my snipers and gunners. Everytime I strafe a hostile contact with LMG fire he ends up dying rather than being suprressed. Give it 3 to 4 missions and your gunners will be gods whereas riflemen and assaults become nothing more than meat for the grinder.

[StellarRat]

I am finding the heavy suppresion weapons a tad too powerful IMO, I find my gunners improve nearly every mission without fail however the poor riflemen and assault hardly have a job above spotting bait for my snipers and gunners. Everytime I strafe a hostile contact with LMG fire he ends up dying rather than being suprressed. Give it 3 to 4 missions and your gunners will be gods whereas riflemen and assaults become nothing more than meat for the grinder.

You could rotate assignments for your squad.

[Beardage]

You could rotate assignments for your squad.

once a man has role it seems to unfair to downgrade him/her after they've served my cause so much. I do alternate roles, but who ever has the LMG will develop quicker than anyone else, this seems an unfair experience tree that can be exploited by those playing the game. I agree that your strength should go up if you're carrying the heaviest weapon the platoon has to offer but Gunners arn't famed for their accuracy, and my gunners accuracy skyrockets compared to a rifleman's, or sniper for that matter, I just think the experience tree for infantry is too biased towards heavy infantry as opposed to light role infantry, it needs to be more balenced rather than the players responsability to rotate his squad role.

[crusherven]

Part of the "problem" with exp gain for me at least is that I usually lead with the LMG. I figure it's best to suppress them first so that reaction fire has reduced accuracy. The net result is that my snipers and gunners level faster because they shoot more, and riflemen level slower because they're dead. And shoot less.

[Max_Caine]

Well, part of the problem is that the LMG has almost the longest range out of all weaponry, tying with the rocket launcher. From the gameconfig.xml:

"Points are given when a soldier attempts to fire at a valid hostile enemy within weapon range * 1.5"

The weapon range of an LMG is 40 tiles! So that makes for 60 tiles in total when calculating points towards accuracy skillups. Were the range cranked down to say 20-25, then LMGs would still get skillups at a fair clip. Rocket launchers could stand to be knocked down in range as well, but probably not so much, as there are only so many (8 in total) rockets a rocket dude can fire without an Ammo Mule.

[StellarRat]

Well, part of the problem is that the LMG has almost the longest range out of all weaponry, tying with the rocket launcher. From the gameconfig.xml:

The weapon range of an LMG is 40 tiles! So that makes for 60 tiles in total when calculating points towards accuracy skillups. Were the range cranked down to say 20-25, then LMGs would still get skillups at a fair clip. Rocket launchers could stand to be knocked down in range as well, but probably not so much...

Well, that doesn't seem right. Advancement should be awarded for doing difficult things like hitting with a pistol at 12 tiles. Definitely needs to be changed. Seems to grossly favor the heavy weapons guys and snipers.

[Gauddlike]

One issue might be that the machine gun was seen to be primarily a suppression weapon so its range may have been increased because outside of the range it cannot suppress.

Reducing accuracy wouldn't help because the gains come from attempting to fire at an enemy, not actually hitting it.

The accuracy also has no effect on the suppression effect.

Damage cannot be made much lower because machine guns already do less damage (but more armour mitigation) than assault rifles.

On top of my old suggestions for reworking weapons I think I should add each weapon (or even fire mode) having its own miss deviation angle...

[erutan]

One way to make light infantry a bit more useful would be to lower firing APs by 1-2 points to make them a bit more desireable. Given the pacing of this game it's generally not a huge disadvantage to setup and put out a spotter (more APs for firing anyway, leapfrog ftw) so the accuracy penalty isn't as drastic as it sounds.

[GizmoGomez]

I'd support making assault rifles take less AP to fire. They really shouldn't take all that much, and they seem to be pretty useless. I mean, my main rifleman (or, riflewoman technically) has only two kills. My snipers have around ten. And yet, she's fired more shots at more aliens. The rifle is kind of underpowered imo. I can't even kill a caesan with it, unless I'm, like, right next to it and fire full auto, and even then it usually takes another shot or two to take it down. Making the shots take less TUs would help lessen that feeling of inferiority.

[TrashMan]

I mean, my main rifleman (or, riflewoman technically) has only two kills. My snipers have around ten. And yet, she's fired more shots at more aliens.

Just like in RL....

[GizmoGomez]

Well, yeah. I'm just saying that the rifle seems a little to nerfed for it to be useful. It's basically just something for spotters to carry at the moment, really. Just read the previous posts, lots of people have very few if any rifles in their loadouts. I mean, if we're running around with all snipers, LMGs and RLs, then the balance isn't right. Pistols being crap, I can accept - they are, compared to everything else. But rifles are the mainstay of the worlds militaries for a reason. Not people running around with rocket launchers and LMGs.

[crusherven]

Rifles are actually my most common weapon. I take two LMGs, two snipers, one assault, and three rifles. I use them as scouts because they can move and fire, and the shotgun has too short of range to handle most situations. The ballistic rifle is kinda crappy, though. I might reduce the TUs for a burst shot down to 30 or something.

The laser rifle is effective.

[GizmoGomez]

I've started to field one rifle, one shotgun, one LMG, 2 snipers and a rocket launcher. Oh, and a hunter, which will hopefully be getting a nice upgrade to it's weapons soon. (hint - it's battery powered)

[erutan]

pre tier 2 I was 2 rocket, 2 sniper, 1 lmg, 3 rifles (w/ shotties in their backpacks).

tier 2 I replaced two of the riflemen for a hunter - it spots better and safer than they do, and the rest provide fire support w/ the rifle(wo)man taking point when she needs to.

my current kill count

snipers - 11 ea

rocket - 8

rifle - 6

rocket - 6

rifle - 4

lmg - 3

rest are rifle subs 3-0. interesting how my lmg kills are so low, I feel like Mr. Chris England has recently become useful aside from just suppressing enemies (enough accuracy + TUs?). I'm kind of tempted to just put a bunch of flashbangs on a second rifleman though - I feel it'd be a bit more flexible and the laser rifle is pretty handy.