Psionics,and why humans should (eventualy) get them

[thothkins]

I would say that there are ways of allowing humans access to limited psionics that in no way goes toe to toe with the aliens, but would keep players who really liked that aspect of the game happy. Personally, I always enjoyed the early part of psionics most. Being able to try out an ability that was unreliable. Certainly the abilities available could be limited - to things like sense lifeform or demoralise or some such.

But just because EU1994 had psionics take things over in late game doesn't mean that another game would have to follow the same path.

[erutan]

I'm not strongly tied to them, but I could see limited psionics having some use - aside from MC a lot of the psionics in EU12 complimented a soldier well but didn't necessarily make them OP. Given no radar scanner a "sense life" would be nice.

[Assoonasitis]

I would say that there are ways of allowing humans access to limited psionics that in no way goes toe to toe with the aliens, but would keep players who really liked that aspect of the game happy. Personally, I always enjoyed the early part of psionics most. Being able to try out an ability that was unreliable. Certainly the abilities available could be limited - to things like sense lifeform or demoralise or some such.

But just because EU1994 had psionics take things over in late game doesn't mean that another game would have to follow the same path.

Why use an unreliable panic mechanism when suppression fire guarantees almost the same result?

[Gauddlike]

You may be happy with a limited form of psi abilities but that may not apply to everyone.

Personally I really didn't like having to ditch half my squad when they suddenly went from experienced troops to total liabilities.

After the first playthrough I generally played without using psi troops or blaster bombs so maybe I just don't have the same feeling of nostalgia for them as some do.

They felt kind of tagged on in the original to me, possibly because of the poor balance.

I prefer similar effects to be duplicated by technology.

They have mental scans to locate your troops so you develop motion detectors to balance the field.

They have mind bolts to knock out your troops so you develop stun grenades and rockets to retaliate and so on.

I reckon the decision to exclude psi was as much about avoiding the potential headache balancing them would cause as about them not fitting the game design.

Plus once you add a few abilities the questions change from 'why no psi' to 'why only some', or 'why not more', and 'where is the mind control'

Not saying I wouldn't appreciate them if they were added and properly balanced of course, just that I don't think they are as important as other aspects of the ground combat.

As you say, just because they weren't balanced in another game doesn't mean they would be inherently bad in this one.

[GizmoGomez]

GizmoGomez. There are supply ships! Not specifically designed supply ships. The Large classifcation of UFO does duty for that. The only supply ship I ever came across was a Landing Ship. But they look custom built for heavy lifting anway.

But, they have lots of loot and we have the ability to shoot them down and get that loot, right? That's all I want, basically.

Plus, even if it has no in-game effect on their base, I'd like to think that I was being a thorn in their side, harassing their caravans and such.

(Ha, I think that I (in another life, perhaps) would make a decent guerrilla fighter. I know I'd enjoy it, at any rate.)

[Sathra]

I think Chris mentioned that shooting down 'supply mission' ships would affect the base's growth and number of enemies.

[GizmoGomez]

Cool, thanks. That's what I wanted to hear.

You guys can get back to psionics now, I'm done with my little tangent.

[Malachai13]

Wow, alotta good discussion in this thread so far, thanks guys, and for some additional feedback, maybe humans discover some psi powers unique to us? I also wouldn't mind waiting till after release for psionics as an add on, at any rate, and i CAN live without them. It's just "nice to have, but can wait or not happen". :3

Edited April 13, 2013 by Malachai13
spelling errors

[thothkins]

I'm making an assumption with the backstory, but I assume that the aliens will have had psionics for a considerable period of time. Therefore they will be able to use them far more effectively than humans. That keeps the game balance challenging too.

However, humans easily pick up the principles of plasma and other weapon tiers, based in large part on the alien tech. So, it is possible that humans would work the same way - replicating it using a Soviet psychotron programme for example.

Having humans with their own unique psionics can work both ways too. On one hand it could be a reason for the alien invasion, with the aliens looking to exploit that trait in other races. Alternately, we could be connected to the psionic races as per EU1994

The downside is that it makes the game revolve around how special humans are to things.

Given the choice I'd say, aliens should have advanced psionics, with humans, due to the biological components of the technology, languishing far behind, but with a few little tricks.

[Sathra]

Well considering exactly how psychic power is generated by the aliens it makes sense why humans wouldn't be able to do it.

Or unwilling.

Actually reminds me of the fancier Goa'uld tech now that I think about it.

[endervoid]

Why use an unreliable panic mechanism when suppression fire guarantees almost the same result?

I dont know how its suppression is handled in the game, but in my understanding of real life suppression fire there are differences to panic:

- if you suppress a unit, you still have to flank that unit to kill it, because you cant walk through your own suppression fire

- somebody suppressed is still able to act, more so if behind cover (he can retreat, throw grenades, shoot at flanking units, even shoot back to some degrees). A paniced unit cant.

- you need at least a light machine gun to suppress effectively. And not every soldier should have a lmg because of the weight. (You can suppress with a assault rifle, but with a 30 round magazine you will have no ammo fast, the suppression cone should be small too. And when you reload you can be suppressed from the unit you just suppressed yourself).

So basicely the main advantage of suppression fire should be its range and cone with an lmg, single target i would mostly prefer panic (because its like a stun, contrary to a weak aoe "root").

What i'm trieing to say here, it's all about how you handle psi abilities. You always can come up with something usefull that isn't mind control and doesn't duplicate an existing mechanics.

But i would rather wish a fast and good release with existing mechanics then have them implement and balance new ones though

[Assoonasitis]

Yeah, but in the game suppression means you lose all your TUs (no reaction fire) and have your next turn's TUs halved. Why would I want something that maybe saps all of your TUs next turn and leaves me open to reaction fire when I can achieve almost the same result by having my dude with the LMG shoot in your direction and is nigh guaranteed to work?

[Gauddlike]

One problem I have with the limited psi powers and 'little tricks' is that they need to be something useful but also something that you have to do without for the majority of the game, assuming psi powers aren't something you pick up from your first scout..

I also feel that the idea that the aliens can do it so we should be able to pick it up doesn't sit right.

Learning how to use or replicate their technology is one thing but learning how to somehow duplicate one of their biological functions with our own, very different, bodies is a whole other ball game.

We have known about animals that can alter their colouration for camouflage for many years but humans have not somehow developed the ability to do the same.

Dogs can hear a far higher range of frequencies but we cannot duplicate that.

Aliens can harness the power of their minds to influence the minds of others, it doesn't mean we would be able to do the same.

We may be able to develop technology that duplicates the effect to some extent though.

I like this disparity and feel it fits into the game world well.

[thothkins]

We may be able to develop technology that duplicates the effect to some extent though.

yup, exactly what I was looking for too. The technology allows humans to duplicate the effects, but to a lesser degree hence "little tricks" to emphasis that, compared to the overpowering big tricks in EU1994.

[Malachai13]

Given the choice I'd say, aliens should have advanced psionics, with humans, due to the biological components of the technology, languishing far behind, but with a few little tricks.

I like that, one idea i had was that since our brains are different, we have different powers (once we replicate the tech to amplify them enough to project them) My idea for the humans "super" psi power was, instead of mind control, like an AOE "buff" around the wielder, which required the user to reserve a portion of their time units each turn they have it on, until they toggle it off.

This power would provide small combat bonuses to any allies within range, with the benefits growing weaker the farther out in the effect radius you are. This would allow you to decide if you wanted your valuable psi trooper to hang back and give smaller bonuses, or risk them closer to the front and give more powerful bonuses.

I also think that specialist equipment, a-la psi amp from the original, and some other ideas we concoct (which should probably be very expensive, thus making it inefficient to "spam" psi troopers) would be a good idea, like the equivalent

of the psi amp would be a pair of gauntlet like apparatus, which would allow the wearer to use their abilities, and function like a "psi pistol", ranging in power from standard to plasma weaponry as the user grows in psychic power.

Ill make another post after this one for a few ideas on lesser powers.

[Malachai13]

A few ideas on "lesser" powers:

Psyshock: Weak psychic attack that deals light damage, also drain TU's in proportion to power of user and TU's spent to execute the ability.

Cryokinesis: Generates a AOE (either small to medium, perhaps determine by individual power) does no to light damage, but reduces TU's and Reaction for 1 to 3 turns, both based on users power

Rally: Restores a set amount of moral, divided among one or more friendly troops in the affect, based on TU's spent to us it, and is generally more effective than the small boost from the ultimate ability, due to this being dedicated at this role.

Inspire/Paragon(just some name ideas): Most powerful ability humans can manifest, this is the aformention toggleable , constan buff that reduces the useres maximum TU's As long as it is on.

Just some ideas, any thoughts? (please be polite and constructive.)

Edited April 19, 2013 by Malachai13
spelling errors

[Commissar Pancakes]

Psyshock: Can be construed as almost OP as Mind Control

Cryokinesis: So...you're just "panic"-ing them...

Rally: This might be useful.

Inspire: ...isn't this pretty much the same thing as "Rally"?

[Sathra]

Psyshock sounds like suppression to me. And yes, damn powerful.

Actually, being able to suppress someone as an ability sounds like something good for the aliens.

Rally could actually be very powerful if psionic resistance is still based on morale.

Rally gives back morale, inspire is combat buffs.

[Snozy]

I want to see experimenting alien cyberg technology that protect you from alien psy. if you want protection u must interact with experimented machine inplants into your body. changing your appearence like the art in X-COM UFO Defense when you research the UFO Navigation. very ugly transformation just to understand a piece of alien ware hahahaha

[Malachai13]

Psyshock sounds like suppression to me. And yes, damn powerful.

Actually, being able to suppress someone as an ability sounds like something good for the aliens.

Rally could actually be very powerful if psionic resistance is still based on morale.

Rally gives back morale, inspire is combat buffs.

Thank you for trying to be nice, and I'm not upset with pancakes, though i would prefer ideas on how to improve my ideas, not straight complaints, as far as i can interpret them, and psyshock wouldn't prevent reaction fire like suppression, but would "burn" some of their TU's, at least that was my rough draft idea. ANy thoughts on the equipment side of things?

[Sathra]

Hmm, I thought suppression did take TU's away from a target. Oh, unless you mean it only does some, in which case it'd be a kind of weaker suppression effect without the reduced TU next turn. Interesting.

I dunno, the most obvious psi ability I could think of would be a motion tracker-style ability. Gives you a rough idea of where the aliens are based on the carrier wave. Would be very late game though.

As for Inspire there was some discussion about this being a natural effect of officers. Dunno where that went though.

Hmm, maybe instead of cryokinesis (not sure about having actual damage abilities as human psi) why not a 'blind' effect? Since we're talking late game it'd be pretty effective.

[Gauddlike]

Blind would be the same as throwing a smoke grenade wouldn't it?

A I said previously any abilities you add as psi powers really need to be something that the player has not had access to in another way through the game or they will be underwhelming when you get them.

The flip side is that if you have to wait until the end game to get a basic motion tracker type ability then that would just make me think 'why didn't they just add a motion tracker'.

Also if an ability can afford to be left out of the game until late on doesn't that mean it probably wasn't all that important if the player didn't really need it so far?

Suppression type effects are already present by shooting the enemy, blind from smoke, knocking out an enemy from stun weapons.

[Commissar Pancakes]

Wasn't complaining, just pointing out some...flaws...with your suggestions.

Back to the topic at hand...

Psyshock:

While the TU reduction wouldn't be all that bad, the light damage could be spammed constantly, pretty much just acting like MCing an alien in EU 93 and having it kill itself. I would keep the TU reduction and remove the light damage or just have it so that the solder can only do this once per turn (though the slight spamminess of freezing the same alien over and over again until it dies kinda takes the tension out of the game once you know where they are...).

Cryokinesis:

Pretty much the [currently removed] Concussion rockets that would cause stun and suppression damage except you don't need line of sight. I just think that this is too over powered (though this may depend on the AOE radius).

Rally and Inspire are the most balanced of the bunch, me thinks. That is...if you only can perform one once per turn...

[Sathra]

Smoke just reduces hit chance doesn't it? It doesn't actually affect sight range AFAIK. I meant something that actually reduced sight range, either to 1 tile or the view range of a human soldier at night wearing Jackal.

[TrashMan]

RESTORE MORALE

Troops panicking? Leaving their posts and fleeing the battle?

Cowardace in the face of the enemy cannot be tolerated. With this ability, all friendly units on the map have their morale restored to full.

Of course, there is a price to pay. And the price is 1 bullet and 1 cowardly xenonaut.

Who needs psionics whena good old-fashioned "I'll make an example out of you" works as well.

Or...