Build V18 Ground Combat Balance Discussion

[Max_Caine]

Well, after more testing and sending valiant Xenonauts into fire, fog and toxic brews, it looks like any "environmental" damage causes a CTD. Aie. I'm not quite sure which file controls how much damage fire does (yet!), but the other effects can mostly be turned off in gas_gc.xml.

[thothkins]

yikes! thanks for your perseverance in testing this out and file checking.

[Max_Caine]

So, I encountered Reapers, proper Reapers for the first time. And oh boy was there a lot of them. However many Reapers there had been to start with, they quickly gribblified all the civvies and friendly ai on the map I was on. I was unable to do anything about it and I spent half the mission just shooting reapers. I haven't done a terror mission facing them yet, but if the reapers are as efficent as they were in the corvette map then I won't be saving any civvies, because they'll all be zombies.

[Assoonasitis]

Sebillians are way, way too strong in the early game. Like, they're basically just really tanky Ceasans, which is bad, bad, bad. I suggest increasing armour a little, maybe health, and dropping their accuracy by at least 25% (maybe even 50%) so that they can't snipe from across the map. As it stands, they're almost impossible to kill unless you get the drop on them because they can and will hit from the entire map away. I like a challenge, but a thing that takes five or six hits to kill AND is nearly unerringly accurate is a bit unfair.

[StellarRat]

Sebillians are way, way too strong in the early game. Like, they're basically just really tanky Ceasans, which is bad, bad, bad. I suggest increasing armour a little, maybe health, and dropping their accuracy by at least 25% (maybe even 50%) so that they can't snipe from across the map. As it stands, they're almost impossible to kill unless you get the drop on them because they can and will hit from the entire map away. I like a challenge, but a thing that takes five or six hits to kill AND is nearly unerringly accurate is a bit unfair.

I don't agree with this. I haven't had any problems dealing with them even with gunpowder weapons.

[a333]

Well, after more testing and sending valiant Xenonauts into fire, fog and toxic brews, it looks like any "environmental" damage causes a CTD. Aie. I'm not quite sure which file controls how much damage fire does (yet!), but the other effects can mostly be turned off in gas_gc.xml.

Hello, and, again, welcome to the Xenonauts Science Computer-Aided Enrichment center. Your specimen has been processed and we are now ready to begin the test proper.

[Assoonasitis]

I don't agree with this. I haven't had any problems dealing with them even with gunpowder weapons.

At least reduce their vision, then, because at night I have to be right up in their grills to even see them and by that time my dudes all have smoking craters for chests.

Also: my point is that different aliens should be different. If Sebillians are just stronger versions of Ceasans, why bother having them in the game? By making them worse in some ways and better in others, the player is forced to use different tactics to handle them. More to the point, making them highly resilient but bad at shooting changes up terror missions because I'm never faced with a situation of certain death when there's a Sebillian that can snipe me and a reaper close enough to attack.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Assoonasitis

[Max_Caine]

Got my hands on Buzzard armour, and I can't say I'm impressed.

Vertical Movement

There are lots of things in the industrial level I first tried it out on that are just begging to be landed on - packing crates are especially tempting. However the armour won't let you do that. Nor does it seem to let me jump over walls. The game sort-of let me try to jump onto the roof of a three-level building. I mean, it did try to make an animation and failed completely (both in animation and letting me jump onto the roof), but hey, that's just a bug (one which I think Thothkins has already reported).

Request: As the buzzard suit is supposed to improve mobility, could horizontal movement in a suit be cheaper. With the appropriate fine-tuning, the suit's jets might allow the user to make bounding leaps rather than simply walk/run.

Sight Range and Armour

Aliens still out-sight buzzard armour, which wouldn't be so bad if Buzzard armour wasn't actually worse than Jackal armour at protecting my guys. Jackal armour can usually take a hit from plasma rifles. Each time a guy in Buzzard armour took a hit, he was down for the count.

Request: Could either Buzzard armour sight range be put on-par with aliens, or their protective value be improved to the level of Jackal armour?

[Sathra]

Having the Sebillians be worse shots OR have a smaller sight range would be good. As it is they see further than Jackal troops (not Basic I think) and shoot as good as Caesans (completely contrary to the Xenopedia article I might add).

They aren't too much trouble as long as you keep up the tech, but take usually 3-1 odds to take out in one turn. Essential to stopping the cross-map barrage. Its alot easier to do with a tank, which might be able to actually see further than the aliens do.

Reapers are just wierd though. They always seem to run behind your soldiers and run out of TUs and just stand really close.

[StellarRat]

Essential to stopping the cross-map barrage.

Well, that should stop once the shots passing through anything bug is fixed. You can drop them easily using a shotgun, LMG, or sniper rifle. I think they need to have their regeneration kicked up a notch though.

[Max_Caine]

The Scimitar is an extremely well designed and useful piece of kit. However, I don't think it should be able to take volley after volley of plasma death without at least the paintwork being scratched. Don't get me wrong - when I was approaching my first Cruiser, it was extremely nice to have a tank to hide behind, but I think it should get hurt.

[crusherven]

I've noticed that alien placement is fairly predictable. Once you've played a map a few times, you can readily guess where the aliens will appear. On a farm map, I figure there may be one in/near the barn, one in the bottom field, one in the right field, one in the top field, and one in the ship (assuming light scout). I know there will never be one in the left field, and I'll never have to look very far east or south. I also know I won't have to search the barn because the alien will be near the south entrance and will never move north.

I'll assume that the alien behavior will get slightly less predictable, but I'm just not very happy with knowing right away where aliens won't be.

[Assoonasitis]

Well, that should stop once the shots passing through anything bug is fixed. You can drop them easily using a shotgun, LMG, or sniper rifle. I think they need to have their regeneration kicked up a notch though.

Your line of thinking is correct, but I want different aliens to be actually different, is what I'm saying. Right now you have Caesans who are good shots and like to use cover and you have Sebillians who are good shots and like to use cover and also happen to take a whole bunch of hits to kill. I'd rather have the Caesans be good shots who like to use cover but are very frail and Sebillians who aren't very good shots but are very hardy. Makes things more interesting, I think.

[crusherven]

Or they could be more aggressive, charging the player in groups rather than constantly retreating. Something more distinct, I agree.

[thothkins]

I think that the different races/ sub races are supposed to prefer operating at different ranges, with different levels of aggressiveness?

[Max_Caine]

They are.

But not yet.

The aiprops.xml file has settings for varying levels of aggression, alongside preferred range etc. Additionally, one of three poses (Aggressive, Defensive, Passive) seem to be able to be set in the specific ufo type files. However, as things are coded at the moment, most aliens will run away when outnumbered, seek cover and fire back. Having played around with the settings, I think we're just going to have to wait for GJ.

[Sathra]

Hmm, if the aliens work in squads could work that into it. So Caesans work in squads with 1-2 scouts/drones ranging ahead for the rest to barrage from their sight (3-5 trooper squads). Nasty, but can be worked around (by gunning down the scouts quickly).

Sebillians could all advance as a group (3-5 again) and try to move up to 5 tiles away. Pretty damn scary. Especially if they bring along 1 or 2 reapers as well.

And Androns, fitting with their toughness and lack of awareness would be alone or in pairs early on, moving up to pairs and trios as the game progresses. With their terror unit flitting around with the Androns between them and the enemy.

Thoughts?

[thothkins]

My first thought is that I'll need more troops. Are 8 in a Chinook really going to be enough for a well organised terror mission?

Agree with Sathra:-

Ceasians - creepy, smart and using drones tactically makes sense - Psionics for any of their units that can use it best form a distance.

Sebillians - More Aggressive. More likely to move closer to engage. I do see them as a bit more prepared to break rank in a berserker sort of way though, particularly in close combat.

Still, one thing to bear in mind is that having groups of aliens barraging & picking off Xenonauts form a distance makes everything that much harder. It quickly teaches players the importance of using cover. Not a bad thing. I'd not necessarily agree with the aliens allowing themselves to get picked off in ones and twos all the time, just because they all have conveniently different aggression modes.

[Sathra]

Got the idea from the Caesan thing actually happening to me. It was pretty brutal and I failed to pull back instead of shooting my way out.

[thothkins]

Way back before the AI was a glimmer, I had a Caesian flank three troops, kill two of them from cover and then almost kill the third. A very, very near thing. It was "clearly" hunting down my guys. Very creepy and I'd like to see more of that if the drones get taken out and their barrage from afar isn't going to work.

[Dragosh]

My first few terror missions were at night(game hates me obviously) and those Caesians with Plasma Cannons turn all my soldiers to paste, the reaction fire from those cannons is just ridiculous, my guy with a assault rifle is incapable of reaction firing but the caestian with a uber cannon that has a 90% hit chance from the other side of the map can reaction fire like it was nothing.

I lost so much nerves trying to play a terror mission

Update 1:

Well its hilarious how the Hunter can hit the knee high cover while standing right next to it, i mean the vehicle is tall at least 1.6 so how can it idiotically hit something at headlight level is beyond me

And soldiers killing themselves with grenades because cover that they stay behind decided to play tennis is hilarious but not fun

Edited April 6, 2013 by Dragosh

[Assoonasitis]

My first few terror missions were at night(game hates me obviously) and those Caesians with Plasma Cannons turn all my soldiers to paste, the reaction fire from those cannons is just ridiculous, my guy with a assault rifle is incapable of reaction firing but the caestian with a uber cannon that has a 90% hit chance from the other side of the map can reaction fire like it was nothing.

I lost so much nerves trying to play a terror mission

Update 1:

Well its hilarious how the Hunter can hit the knee high cover while standing right next to it, i mean the vehicle is tall at least 1.6 so how can it idiotically hit something at headlight level is beyond me

And soldiers killing themselves with grenades because cover that they stay behind decided to play tennis is hilarious but not fun

"Aliens terrorizing Mumbai!? Let's go! ... What? We won't arrive until after Dark? Turn the Charlie around. Forget that, nuke 'em."

[Amiga4ever]

Unable to enter UFO and turn off roof on it

[crusherven]

So, I've been running into a lot more heavy plasmas. The research blurb says they're inaccurate and only good at medium to short range. Is that a science joke or something? They seem to be pretty lethal (and accurate) even at long range.

[Max_Caine]

Well they would be more inaccurate if their max op. range weren't 22 tiles. That's prolly going to need to go down to perhaps 16.