Build V18 Geoscape Balance Discussion

[a333]

(Light) scouts should perhaps have a very high chance of being destroyed if hit by missiles in order to (strongly) encourage the player to use the auto cannon if they hope to get a generate a crash site. Should make the early fights a bit more intense.

Interesting.

I've imagined it like this: craft would not crash immediately, but continue to appear on radar for a while. If it gets enough overdamage in this window, it will be destroyed. Also, damage randomisation would come in handy.

So the missile hit would probably destroy it outright, and when it's not, the craft will be set in "unable to flight", and will crash after a second. But if you fire two missiles, it will be overdamaged enough to be torn to pieces.

And the best part: imagine that you are throwing full salvo on the big saucer, they hit, and enemy is still operational... it flies for one more tense second ...fall down and crashland. Deep breath.

[thothkins]

Sathra's Official Geoscape Map Corrections and Additions has some additional city details on it.

(Light) scouts should perhaps have a very high chance of being destroyed if hit by missiles in order to (strongly) encourage the player to use the auto cannon if they hope to get a generate a crash site.

If you have a plane that has missiles and cannon and you have no idea of the strength of the UFOs, and you're learning the interception ropes, I'd say you were more likely to use everything at your disposal.

Now if the Light Scouts were destroyed you've just blown up the first two missions that the game is supposed to deliver so you can get onto the Battlescape. You're relying on a "Local forces down UFO without blowing it up, Cdr Overkill." missions.

[Max_Caine]

Air combat in the early game is a foregone conculsion if you use the right craft, or right combination of craft. A Scout verses a single Condor is quite the slugfest. I guess one could give light souts the dodge capability. That way the first air battle Sir Noobalot has is all full of surprises, and provided dodge works the way it should (which it doesn't at the moment), it would take some cannon fire to down a light scout.

EDIT: Yes, just tried it. If the evade function on ufos were faster and longer it would be viable to give light scouts the evade function, and mix things up a bit.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Max_Caine

[Assoonasitis]

I'd like it if Fighters showed a bit of advanced tactical thinking. Like splitting off into three separate units to try to have one craft take out the human interceptors that give chase. Stuff like that. Probably too complicated, though.

Also, it'd be awesome if left-click-hold didn't move the map in dogfights. Like maybe right-click-hold could be used so that left-click is only used to re-direct fighters.

[Max_Caine]

crusherven, I've made some changes which make the fights verses light scouts (and in fact, verses anything that can dodge) more perilous.

In aircrafts.xml, I boosted the turn rate and made it possible for light scouts to evade. In gameconfig.xml I then altered the evade function (which is universally applied) so that UFOs can dodge effectively (while at the same time increasing the cooldown rate as otherwise UFOs dodge too often).

Here are the two files if you want to give them a try: aircrafts.xml and gameconfig.xml.

EDIT: Don't forget to back up your original files first!

Edited April 7, 2013 by Max_Caine

[Gauddlike]

Does it have much effect on the players dodge ability?

[Max_Caine]

Yeesss... sort of. Player planes are better at it. They dodge a little further and do it a little quicker while taking a little longer to cool down for the next dodge.

[Shima]

What is alenium used for? I must have missed it somewhere. I use it mainly as a backup resource for cash.

Which month do you guys think is best for building a second base? Cash is quite tight in this build and I wasn't able to build second base until december or so.

I have a gripe with cannons on fighters. They shoot down ufo fighters quite easily, but every medium+ ufo I encounter just laughs at them. Especially when I get gatling lasers. I expected more firepower (and different sound effects) than autocannon but both have completely same damage (about 30% health of a corvette after some serious dogfighting).

I know cannons are not meant to be used against bigger ufos but not being able to kill cruiser with 96% dmg after I unload all my plasma rockets and torpedoes into it is just aaaargh!

Edit: I think Heavy fighter missiles should have more fuel. It's very cool that they circle around for second pass at you but then they run out of fuel and you don't need to react to them for second time. Forcing player to alter his trajectory and use afterburner/dodge to get out of their reach when they come back at him would be really nice.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Shima

[thothkins]

What is alenium used for? I must have missed it somewhere.

It's used for all that nice later tier equipment and weaponry you now won't be able to build

Although, in saying that, the assets file seems to suggest the bulk of it goes in building Corsairs more than anything else.

[crusherven]

I'm still not sure building a second base is ever worth it. I haven't played past December, though. Some items are so expensive it just seems more worthwhile to build up the original base and have one strong base rather than two mediocre ones.

[Shima]

You have a point there. Nation funding is so small that building another base to save 3 more regions or so never actually pays off. Although I was able to shoot down more ufos from my second base and get more money from loot... But I'm too lazy to make a proper balance and see if it is profitable or not

Edit: On the other hand, having 1 corsair + 1 foxtrot in one base and 2 condors + 1 foxtrot in the second made almost impossible to kill any landingships that came around. I had to shoot all alenium missiles/torpedoes I had, return to base, rearm and quickly go after it again to actually kill it.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Shima

[crusherven]

I guess it's possible that building a second base becomes more profitable in terms of collecting alloys, which are extremely precious in v18. Of course, it also takes a tremendous number of alloys to equip a new base with laser and wolf gear, so...

[thothkins]

I kind of agreed with the whole idea of pushing to have new bases due to restricted chinook ranges, and limited base space.

But, with global Chinook range on the way and the limited finance, I can see your point. Hard to say until it's played without vanishing equipment and Corvette Of Gold bugs though.

Even with lots of pennies in the last build, I found that there was never enough workshop space to keep up with demand.

[Shima]

Well I don't have any soldiers stationed in the second base. Just aircraft (I edited my earlier post to list my aircraft there). That saves quite a bit of money. But I plan on having some soldiers there eventually...

About the dissapearing equipment bug: I managed to evade that one completely by striping wounded soldiers of everything of value for a day or two when they are about to be completely healed. I usually leave a few grenades or something or them (anything that is available in infinite amount) to see when the bug kicks in and I can equip them again. I managed to go until end of december without any of my valuable equipment missing so far.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Shima

[Shima]

It's used for all that nice later tier equipment and weaponry you now won't be able to build

Although, in saying that, the assets file seems to suggest the bulk of it goes in building Corsairs more than anything else.

Yeah well 20 alenium per corsair is not really any pain when I have about 100 in stock after I sold a few hundred...

I didn't notice plasma weapons eating any alenium so I guess I have to wait for further tiers.

Not having necessary materials listed in workshop screen as of yet is a bit confusing

[thothkins]

Yup, I'd noted down the lack of information on what it actually takes to make anything down for a post somewhere. It could really do with a look.

Thanks for the info on how to avoid the mysterious pilferers of Xeno-base. I'll do that.

As for bases, it's not a bad thing that you have to plan ahead in building bases. Month 1 - build a base, 2 - get some radar & hangers on it, 3- interceptors, 4- spend a month watching red circles you can't get to (about to change), 5- get some troops, 6- wonder why they never seem to get any missions now you've finally put them there.

[Nalca]

When cruiser come, you have HUGE amount of alenium/alloy, to the point it's broken.

I mean, a corsair cost 20 alenium and 30 alloy, and you've got 300 alloy and 100 alenium for each cruiser.

Juste now, i've sell 2k alloy, 1k alenium and some alien reactor.

Result : +7M$

[Sathra]

Yep, stupid amounts of resources for Cruisers. 10x what you get from a Landing ship or thereabouts.

I have been wondering, are a pair of Plasma missiles meant to kill a Heavy fighter? They don't seem like much of an upgrade, unlike Alenium.

[Sathra]

Also, what ship do you need to capture before you get the next dropship? Up to cruisers at the moment and still nothing.

[erutan]

I'm on standalone v18 + hotfix. My first playthrough consisted of the two pregenerated crash sites having no aliens, every UFO escaped or were over water until late November... I tried taking down a Corvette with a Foxtrot and two Condors, didn't work (I could have microed my second Condor better to get more cannon fire off). With that it was game over. I assumed v18 had the empty craft patches in it, but I guess not.

General thoughts:

NO NO NO NO NO to global skyranger range. If you want to help alleviate things, start with enough money you can somewhat feasibly start a hangar/radar base in the first month / early second if you skimp on equipment. Being able to shoot down but not quite reach things adds to the pleasure when you do get that base up. I think having it so you only need 2 or 3 bases with soldiers in them should be the ideal, but not 1.

The pregenerated missions could happen in two locations (ussr, central america) that the player would be pretty much be gaurenteed to reach (2 of 4) - boom problem solved. Having a little despair over range in the beginning seems a lot better than only needing one soldier base mid-late game (unless it gets overrun I suppose).

[Sathra]

I think its mostly for the terror missions, and there can be alot once Corvettes+ start showing up. I've had about 12 or thereabouts so far in my current playthrough (February) and only been able to reach 2. The chinook turns around juuust before it reaches the icon. Its pretty annoying.

The Chinook is also extremely slow and responding to a crashsite or terror mission across the world can mean missing out on others due to travel time. Mid-late game you can end up with multiple crashsites, especially with multiple intercept bases. It also has to do it unescorted since no fighter has the range to support.

[erutan]

My concern is that we're damaging the game design reacting to a game that is still radically imbalanced. There could be an upgrade mid-game that goes faster (if not a new ship, just like 'increased chinook engines zomg'), maybe more funding so getting multiple bases is a little faster, delay how often terror attacks come at that point in the game, etc.

Having the player be able to cover everything aside from perhaps australia with two bases seems like it might be a good compromise, but IMO having global coverage dilutes things.

[Sathra]

I think with the current chinook range you can cover the planet with 2 bases. I'd probably increase resource takings instead of actual cash since it adds the whole "do I sell it or use it" choice.

Funnily enough, most of my terror missions in my current game were in australia. Melbourne has been nuked multiple times.

[erutan]

Yeah, the chinook range has expanded again from the last time I played. I think it's pretty reasonable as is - if the player is already getting punished for overextending transports w/o being able to cover them with interceptors, the answer seems to be more bases than global chinook. If you only need 2 soldier bases (and might want a third just not overextend in eurasia) it doesn't seem like going EU12 on chinook range is necessary.

Given how spiky the game can be it might be good to raise both - now I'm in the very beginning of October and I have 4 lieutenants, armor, and a bunch of research under my belt. A bit different from my last playthrough. The whole cash + value of items + need for them in research still hasn't been balanced much, so we'll just have to see how it all plays out.

[Sathra]

Indeed.

I'm still a supporter of global range since terror sites can time out while in flight. Night terror missions are terrifying and with global range and time-out you can't really choose the time of day for the far ones.