[Ground Battles] Toggleable line of fire/sight grid; ability to place "dummies"

[Ol' Stinky]

I think we can all agree that the ability to plan is pretty important in a tactics game. When setting up overwatch, I need to know that if I move to square B as opposed to square A, my soldier won't be able to fire on the enemy should he come around the corner. Alternatively, since overwatch only works if an enemy enters the specific unit's line of sight and not squad sight (right?), I'd like to know how far my overwatching soldier can see without having to measure out the squares by hand. No point in parking guys into overwatch if they're not able to do anything about the aliens poking their heads around the corner!

So, my first suggestion is a toggleable button on the UI that turns a grid on/off. This grid replaces the move-grid with line of sight/line of fire squares. If no unit is currently selected for whatever reason, I suppose the button should be greyed out.

I guess it might be an idea for this LoS/LoF-grid to have a different colour scheme to the move-grid to avoid confusion. Squares the selected unit can currently see, factoring in which way it's facing, could have a purple border. Squares that the selected unit can fire at could be blue, while squares that can't would be orange.

---

My second idea's taken from Frozen Synapse, in all honesty. You could set down "ghosts" in that game so that in the turn-planning phase, you could check whether your soldiers would run into enemy fire (for example). When you hit end turn they vanish. The other player never sees them, they're purely for testing tactics. In Xenonauts, ghosts would have to be modified since we're not playing simultaneous turns, but it'd still be handy with the above suggestion.

Once you move, you're committed to that action, so you can be punished for moving to a place without a clear line of fire. I feel that a bit unfair given that there's no way to check beforehand. Being able to slap a dummy or ghost down on the target square and check the LoS/F would be really, really welcome. Being able to place down a hostile dummy so you can check if you're going to run into reaction fire would also be pretty sweet.

Edited February 20, 2013 by Ol' Stinky

[Hansmorg]

I quite like the idea about a toggle-able line of sight, as that would be really helpful.

The dummy idea I'm against, simply because I like the tension not knowing gives you. If I could test whether I'd get shot at here/there or not, that would take away a lot from the game for me. However the idea of a dummy sounds cool, you set up a dummy soldier and watch it from afar hoping that those pesky reapers will get attracted to it.

[erutan]

dummy soldier = rookie.

[GizmoGomez]

Harsh, erutan.

Anyway, I like the line of sight/fire idea, something so I can know if I can shoot an enemy should he poke his ugly mug out of the UFO door, or cover an alley way without too many blind spots. Perhaps the button mentioned could show all of your troops line of sights, but only the selected soldier's line of fire, just for conveniences sake. This would also let you "follow" an alien into the next turn, so they don't disappear by stepping back a few meters, out of your line of sight. You'd just have to make sure that they had lost of LoS around them, so wherever they moved, you could still see them.

[erutan]

The LoS idea sounds good to me as well - I think JA 1.13 had something like this. It'd be fun to have it color coded - e.g. tiles w > 75% accuracy would be light green, down to 50% yellow, below that red. That'd be optional. This would be good for getting a feel for a new weapon / planning reaction fire.

Totally against a LSN/FS style preview, though that feature fits well in those.

[Ol' Stinky]

I quite like the idea about a toggle-able line of sight, as that would be really helpful.

The dummy idea I'm against, simply because I like the tension not knowing gives you. If I could test whether I'd get shot at here/there or not, that would take away a lot from the game for me. However the idea of a dummy sounds cool, you set up a dummy soldier and watch it from afar hoping that those pesky reapers will get attracted to it.

When I move a soldier to such-and-such square only to find out he can't make the shot, I don't feel tense, I feel annoyed. What makes this sort of game tense for me is that the RNG won't always be on my side, and if I make tactical mistakes when the RNG's working in favour of the aliens, the smelly stuff will hit the fan. Usually these tactical mistakes are down to bad assumptions and/or cockiness. ("There's no way I'd run into chryssalids at this point and I can probably take 'em on anyway!") But mistakes caused by lack of information, or misinformation, seem unfair. ("Whoops, that aliens must be 17 squares away, not 16 squares away. Sorry Private Jools, looks like you're getting a plasma bath.")

The LoS idea sounds good to me as well - I think JA 1.13 had something like this. It'd be fun to have it color coded - e.g. tiles w > 75% accuracy would be light green, down to 50% yellow, below that red. That'd be optional. This would be good for getting a feel for a new weapon / planning reaction fire.

Totally against a LSN/FS style preview, though that feature fits well in those.

I like the colour coded idea, that'd be neat.

Could you remind me what it was like in LSN? I did play that game, but it was a long time ago: I recieved a month's gaming of it as a present once, but I didn't want to pay a subscription fee. A shame really, since I seem to recall that I enjoyed it well enough, I just wasn't comfortable paying out for it every month.

[Gauddlike]

I don't really see a need for it.

To use your example if you position someone slightly too far from the corner to reaction fire then he will fire when the alien moves closer.

If the alien doesn't move into your range then next turn you edge up a little closer, or pick them off from longer range.

How would the grid work with cover tiles?

For example you would not be able to shoot at the ground on the far side of a half height wall so the tiles would be coloured as impossible targets, however if anything was to move into those 'impossible' tiles then you would be able to attack it.

I also really dislike the idea of being able to undo your moves, which would be the only way I see your grid suggestion addressing the problem you stated.

If you can see line of sight from your soldier then you would need to move them to a spot before you can tell if that line of sight reaches the area you wanted to see.

If you cannot undo your move then how would the LOS grid help in any way?

You would still have moved to the wrong place, only now you would have a grid telling you that, as well a zero hit chance.

If you can test move to an area then you would have to limit that test to not breaking the fog of war or uncovering any enemies that may be along the route.

This is not like Frozen Synapse where you know where everything is on the map at any given time.

You are not supposed to know what is around that next corner until you go there.

Adding a cheap tactic to uncover threats removes a large part of the tension.

Having to make a decision without knowing exactly how it will turn out (i.e. running to cover only to find out I cannot get a good enough shot to kill the enemy) is far more tense for me than the vagaries of the RNG.

If the only thing you have to worry about is rolling a 40 when you needed an 80 to hit then you aren't really focusing on tactics at all any more.

[Ol' Stinky]

I don't really see a need for it.

To use your example if you position someone slightly too far from the corner to reaction fire then he will fire when the alien moves closer.

If the alien doesn't move into your range then next turn you edge up a little closer, or pick them off from longer range.

I'm moving my units up, but I want them spaced out to avoid any disaters with area of effect attacks. I don't want just one guy taking a reaction shot, I want as many of my men to have chances to shoot, if it comes to that. As it is, I don't know for sure how well I'm covering my guys.

How would the grid work with cover tiles?

For example you would not be able to shoot at the ground on the far side of a half height wall so the tiles would be coloured as impossible targets, however if anything was to move into those 'impossible' tiles then you would be able to attack it.

It would be for determining LoFire to a unit standing in that square, not for the ground tile itself. So the grid would indicate that you can fire at someone on the other side of that wall.

If you're making the point that technical limitations make easier LoS/F checks impossible, I'll have to take your word for it. I don't know how the game works under the bonnet.

I also really dislike the idea of being able to undo your moves, which would be the only way I see your grid suggestion addressing the problem you stated.

If you can see line of sight from your soldier then you would need to move them to a spot before you can tell if that line of sight reaches the area you wanted to see.

If you cannot undo your move then how would the LOS grid help in any way?

You would still have moved to the wrong place, only now you would have a grid telling you that, as well a zero hit chance.

If you can test move to an area then you would have to limit that test to not breaking the fog of war or uncovering any enemies that may be along the route.

This is not like Frozen Synapse where you know where everything is on the map at any given time.

You are not supposed to know what is around that next corner until you go there.

Adding a cheap tactic to uncover threats removes a large part of the tension.

The grid means you can more accurately plan your moves, which prevents the need for undoing moves in the first place. As it is, it's possible to move to a spot only to find that at that angle, the rock is now in the way of a clean shot. Which can mean you're screwed. The dummy/ghost tool would only be plantable in uncovered tiles, and wouldn't have the ability to uncover black-fogged tiles themselves.

If you try to move a unit to the opposite side of the map from the first turn, you get a "?" tile on the target black tile. For black tiles and the LoS/F grid, the LoS/F grid wouldn't light up any black tiles at all.

We don't need the movement-TU planner in the game. You can work out how many TUs it takes to get somewhere in your head, as well as factor in TUs spent for opening doors, turning, elevation, and so on. But do you really want to?

Having to make a decision without knowing exactly how it will turn out (i.e. running to cover only to find out I cannot get a good enough shot to kill the enemy) is far more tense for me than the vagaries of the RNG.

If the only thing you have to worry about is rolling a 40 when you needed an 80 to hit then you aren't really focusing on tactics at all any more.

There are already ways in which a decision can have unexpected results as it is. You can assume you've cleared out most of the enemies on the map only to turn a corner and encounter multiple aliens. You can assume the remaining enemies are all in the crashed spaceship, only to have a plasma bolt streak out of the warehouse window and hit a Xenonaut in the back. You can assume a tactics safe, like keeping troops close together, until the first time an alien chucks a grenade. Etc. We've all made these tactical errors in the OG X-Com at some point, I'm sure. Well, I have...

Making a mistake in movement or planning due to the interface is a different matter. If I've not actually got someone providing covering fire because he's in the wrong spot, or if I can't shoot the guy on the other side of that window from this or that position, I feel like it's an oversight on part of the game, rather than a planned element to raise the stakes.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Ol' Stinky
Formatting errors.

[Gauddlike]

The grid means you can more accurately plan your moves' date=' which prevents the need for undoing moves in the first place. As it is, it's possible to move to a spot only to find that at that angle, the rock is now in the way of a clean shot.[/quote']

No it doesn't because, as you state, the grid in your suggestion shows what you can see and attack from your soldiers position.

If that is the case then you would need to move to that new position you mention in order for the grid to show that the rock is now in the way, which you would have known after you moved anyway.

The grid has done nothing to solve that problem.

The only way it would work in the way you envisage would be if the grid could have its focal point placed in the spot you wanted to position your soldier and show line of sight from there.

Again though it would have to be blocked by the fog of war etc to avoid abuse.

[Hansmorg]

When I move a soldier to such-and-such square only to find out he can't make the shot' date=' I don't feel tense, I feel annoyed. What makes this sort of game tense for me is that the RNG won't always be on my side, and if I make tactical mistakes when the RNG's working in favour of the aliens, the smelly stuff will hit the fan. Usually these tactical mistakes are down to bad assumptions and/or cockiness. ("There's no way I'd run into chryssalids at this point and I can probably take 'em on anyway!") But mistakes caused by lack of information, or misinformation, seem unfair. ("Whoops, that aliens must be 17 squares away, not 16 squares away. Sorry Private Jools, looks like you're getting a plasma bath.") [/quote']

That example still seems like a matter of misjudgment rather than misinformation, why not have some one looking out for private Jool? Even if the alien/s is/are out of sight for said lookout, he/she can still fire at it/them, and also why would you move your soldier to a location without cover and expect it to go well?

For me personally if I lose one of my xenonauts it is always because I moved him/her without thinking, or because I was being cocky (there's no way the aliens can stand up to us when we have wolf armour, right? right?!).

All in all though, different people, different opinions .

[Ol' Stinky]

No it doesn't because, as you state, the grid in your suggestion shows what you can see and attack from your soldiers position.

If that is the case then you would need to move to that new position you mention in order for the grid to show that the rock is now in the way, which you would have known after you moved anyway.

The grid has done nothing to solve that problem.

The only way it would work in the way you envisage would be if the grid could have its focal point placed in the spot you wanted to position your soldier and show line of sight from there.

Again though it would have to be blocked by the fog of war etc to avoid abuse.

Yeah, that'd be the point of the dummies: you could move the focal point around, obviously only to areas you've removed the pitch black fog of war from. Being able to move the focal point (which is a much better way of expressing the idea) is the main attraction.

I'm not trying to suggest giving the player the ability to scout unknown terrain with no risk.

That example still seems like a matter of misjudgment rather than misinformation, why not have some one looking out for private Jool? Even if the alien/s is/are out of sight for said lookout, he/she can still fire at it/them, and also why would you move your soldier to a location without cover and expect it to go well?

For me personally if I lose one of my xenonauts it is always because I moved him/her without thinking, or because I was being cocky (there's no way the aliens can stand up to us when we have wolf armour, right? right?!).

All in all though, different people, different opinions .

There's not always cover to hide behind. That farm map has a lot of open space, for example. I 've been there on the wolf armour thing, though. (;

I'll admit I might be working on some wrong assumptions, though. For example, reaction fire being affected by TUs, and only able to take reaction shots if the enemy's in the overwatcher's direct LoS (16 or 17 squares ingame, IIRC). Going back to that farm map, if I can send a scout across the field NE from the drop point while being covered by soldiers who are all the way back from the waist-high wall, then the LoS check's less important.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Ol' Stinky

[Hansmorg]

There's not always cover to hide behind. That farm map has a lot of open space' date=' for example. I'm not the world's best tactician though, I'll give you that. (;

I'll admit I might be working on some wrong assumptions, though. For example, reaction fire being affected by TUs, and only able to take reaction shots if the enemy's in the overwatcher's direct LoS (16 or 17 squares ingame, IIRC). Going back to that farm map, if I can send a scout across the field NE from the drop point while being covered by soldiers who are all the way back from the waist-high wall, then the LoS check's less important.[/quote']

Try using a vehicle as a scout, at least in early game, because the vehicles are far more expendable then the xenonauts .

[Gorlom]

The frozen synapse dummies seems a bit too much handholding for my taste. Not sure about the grid but it might be a bit too much as well.

[Hansmorg]

The frozen synapse dummies seems a bit too much handholding for my taste. Not sure about the grid but it might be a bit too much as well.

The dummies work well in Frozen Synapse from what I can tell, and they're not hand holding in any way. The problem with dummies (in the frozen synapse sense) is that it would change game-play completely.

Frozen Synapse makes you create theories based on what you think the enemy will do, and it allows you to test said theories which makes you second guess, a lot (what if "he" does this instead of that? Oh no...). Frozen Synapse plays on your doubt in a different sense than how X-com/Xenonauts does.

The thing is, that is not X-com, that is Frozen Synapse, it works in Frozen Synapse but it would not work that well in a X-com based game like Xenonauts.

[Gorlom]

The dummies work well in Frozen Synapse from what I can tell, and they're not hand holding in any way. The problem with dummies (in the frozen synapse sense) is that it would change game-play completely.

Frozen Synapse makes you create theories based on what you think the enemy will do, and it allows you to test said theories which makes you second guess, a lot (what if "he" does this instead of that? Oh no...). Frozen Synapse plays on your doubt in a different sense than how X-com/Xenonauts does.

The thing is, that is not X-com, that is Frozen Synapse, it works in Frozen Synapse but it would not work that well in a X-com based game like Xenonauts.

Thank you for elaborating on that

[Hansmorg]

Thank you for elaborating on that

You're welcome .

[Ol' Stinky]

The dummies work well in Frozen Synapse from what I can tell, and they're not hand holding in any way. The problem with dummies (in the frozen synapse sense) is that it would change game-play completely.

Frozen Synapse makes you create theories based on what you think the enemy will do, and it allows you to test said theories which makes you second guess, a lot (what if "he" does this instead of that? Oh no...). Frozen Synapse plays on your doubt in a different sense than how X-com/Xenonauts does.

The thing is, that is not X-com, that is Frozen Synapse, it works in Frozen Synapse but it would not work that well in a X-com based game like Xenonauts.

I probably should never have made the comparison to FS and only put "I'd like a UI element for checking LoS/F" in the OP. (; I don't want simultaneous turns in Xeno or the complications it brings. The UI element I'm asking for wouldn't change the gameplay any more than being able to see how many TUs you have left after you move, or being able to reserve TUs for snap/burst/aimed shot. I haven't really used the reserve TU function that much - easily seeing how many TUs I have left when I get to a square as well as how many TUs I need to take a shot has meant Reserve TU's not as important as in X-Com - but if someone wanted to improve it, I wouldn't object or think it'd change anything other than quality of life.

For example, if ctrl+left click when setting reserve TUs put all units with that gun at that setting, I'd probably never use it myself, but it'd spare someone having to cycle through all the people with shotguns and setting them to snap shot (or whatever) one-by-one.

Edited February 22, 2013 by Ol' Stinky
grammar

[Gauddlike]

I'll admit I might be working on some wrong assumptions' date=' though. For example, reaction fire being affected by TUs, and only able to take reaction shots if the enemy's in the overwatcher's direct LoS (16 or 17 squares ingame, IIRC).[/quote']

I believe that the reaction fire is limited to a certain range based on the weapon the soldier is carrying rather than just their sight range.

Could be wrong on that though.