On Machine Guns

[RaptorEchelon]

I've been playing a fair bit of Ground Combat, and one of my favourite uses for the machine gun is to set them up outside UFOs, wait a turn, open the door, and then burst fire whatever is on the other side. However, I don't see that as the only use for an MG. It costs a lot of AP to fire one, (45?) and that means if I move, I can't fire.

I feel like the MG needs single shot options, low accuracy options, obviously, but it needs them. It's not like people don't use MGs in that capacity in real life.

Second, why not an option to deploy it? It doesn't require any special animations, just get behind some cover, face the right direction and spend some TU to deploy, then next turn you get a boost to accuracy when burst firing. Maybe that'd be better instead of other firing options. Make it so that soldier can no longer move until I undeploy him.

Just a though, because right now my MG is very limited when moving across terrain as he can't fire without setting up, then waiting a turn for his TU to refill.

[Gorlom]

I've been playing a fair bit of Ground Combat, and one of my favourite uses for the machine gun is to set them up outside UFOs, wait a turn, open the door, and then burst fire whatever is on the other side. However, I don't see that as the only use for an MG. It costs a lot of AP to fire one, (45?) and that means if I move, I can't fire.

I feel like the MG needs single shot options, low accuracy options, obviously, but it needs them. It's not like people don't use MGs in that capacity in real life.

Second, why not an option to deploy it? It doesn't require any special animations, just get behind some cover, face the right direction and spend some TU to deploy, then next turn you get a boost to accuracy when burst firing. Maybe that'd be better instead of other firing options. Make it so that soldier can no longer move until I undeploy him.

Just a though, because right now my MG is very limited when moving across terrain as he can't fire without setting up, then waiting a turn for his TU to refill.

If you did this would you still have a reason for bringing any (every) of the other weapons?

You should be careful about increasing the usefulness of a weapon least it eclipses other weapons

[RaptorEchelon]

Well if my second idea was implemented it would still require lots of AP to fire. So you'd still need the other weapons. It's the idea I prefer actually.

[Max_Caine]

If you want to know why the current AP cost is 45, a long time ago and 5? 6? builds away the original AP cost was 25. There wasn't any reason to have any of the other guns. Even the precision rifle. It was el cheapo to blaze away with the MG, the MG did the most damage (barring the rocket launcher), and fired the most shots.

[a333]

If i remember correctly, there is a distinction between crewed machine guns, which have a team of two or three men and used as you mean to (and generally in defending) and assault machine guns, which serve as a relatively short range suppression/area denial weapons in burst assaults. AMG are served by one man supporting the main fire team.

And i think Chris mentioned that the maps are going to be sector-splitted with obstacles in a way which'll make a long LOS or big open areas a rarely guests, so the deployable machine gun will be even less needed.

But i know that you certainly mean a simple bipod and a fast deploy, so let me bring another argument: you want to be able to deploy machine gun, i.e. spent some TU's in exchange of accuracy and defence and then fire on the orher turn. But what you get now is almost the same, except you get reposition, which could be used as substitute for accuracy (move closer) OR as defence means (move away for safety, then fire). This is more flexible and interesting system, which also give you a little nudge towards risking your soldiers. I know that many players tend to hide their soldiers away, shoot from extreme distances, avoiding risk completely, but that takes a huge chunk out of the gameplay immersion.

[StellarRat]

The mechanics of using the MG is OK, but the spread and damage aren't correct IMO. They should do the same damage as the assault rifle and have way less spread.

[Tacobandit]

The mechanics of using the MG is OK, but the spread and damage aren't correct IMO. They should do the same damage as the assault rifle and have way less spread.

How about this: the # of bullets you can fire is dependent on the # of TUs that you have.

[Commissar Pancakes]

I know that many players tend to hide their soldiers away, shoot from extreme distances, avoiding risk completely, but that takes a huge chunk out of the gameplay immersion.

Nah. That's what the shotgun/Assault shield-Stun stick toting guys are for.

[GizmoGomez]

Yeah, I don't see why an LMG (light machine gun is the correct term by the way, not assault machine gun) would be getting close to the enemy when you could be using a shotgun or a pistol/stun rod paired with a shield. I think the LMG should be more for suppressing enemies at a distance so the close quarters guys can move up for the kill relatively easily (as no one's shooting at them). With that in mind, propping the LMG against a fence and having a bipod to steady it (basically standard issue when dealing with LMGs) seems like it could be a good idea. In fact, the artwork for the LMG looks like it has a bipod on it already.

Aim stabilization from propping weapons could be beneficial to sniper rifles as well, which themselves often have bipods attached.

As far as what actually could happen in game:

The soldier walks and stands adjacent to a low wall (or whatever), crouches, and uses a few TUs to deploy the bipod and rest it on the cover. Then, when standing upright again, add some more TUs for the soldier to fold the bipod back into position. It'd work the same way for LMGs and sniper rifles.

If implemented, it would offer an accuracy bonus (which would probably be pretty significant in real life, but for the game it might have to be nerved somewhat so everyone isn't hunkering down with bipod-equipped sniper rifles and LMGs.)

Also, I think that it should only be for those two weapons if at all, mainly because a bipod on a handgun would look ridiculous.

[RaptorEchelon]

I actually just though of another use for it. What if a "deployed" MG stopped enemy reacton fire?

You could then move other units into firing range without aliens taking the (almost always fatal) free shot.

It doesnt even need to be a damaging move, it's jsut I feel it suits the MG role better.

Also, Bipod on a handgun? It's more likely than you think:

[Max_Caine]

There are some starts that I feel people should know about when it comes to discussing the LMG. Firstly, it's a Heavy weapon. If a weapon is flagged as Heavy, they have a small negative to-hit modifier if the weapon is used to move and shoot. I made a handy ez-read comparison chart here. The standard penalty is 0.75. Secondly, the LMG has a recoil value (which is a universal stat). If the strength of the operator is lower than the recoil value, the to-hit percentage is reduced by 1 percent for every point of difference. The LMG has a recoil value of 65.

[GizmoGomez]

Well I'll be darned. A handgun with a bipod.

Although, I never said it wasn't possible, just that it would look ridiculous. Try running around with that and a riot shield while trying to assault an enemy position.

[HWP]

If i remember correctly, there is a distinction between crewed machine guns, which have a team of two or three men and used as you mean to (and generally in defending) and assault machine guns, which serve as a relatively short range suppression/area denial weapons in burst assaults. AMG are served by one man supporting the main fire team.

All machine guns with the exception of full-auto rifle variants are crew-served weapons. SAW (which you mean by AMG) are designed such that they can be operated by one man, but two are used when possible. LMG are semi-interchangeable with SAW and imply a 2-man crew. MMG use tripods and 3-man crews.

E.g. USMC fireteams have 4 men: leader/grenadier (M16+M203), rifleman/scout (M16), automatic gunner (M249 SAW) and assistant automatic gunner.

you want to be able to deploy machine gun, i.e. spent some TU's in exchange of accuracy and defence and then fire on the orher turn.

But what you get now is almost the same, except you get reposition, which could be used as substitute for accuracy (move closer) OR as defence means (move away for safety, then fire). This is more flexible and interesting system, which also give you a little nudge towards risking your soldiers.

It's hardly the same. It's also pretty ridiculous. Soldiers don't run towards the enemy and then run back to avoid return fire. Firearms have obsoleted that tactic. Actually, longbows already have, firearms were just nails in the coffin.

The machine gun in-game should require setting up. I'm in favor of taking about 2/3 of a turn, so that you can still fire one short burst after if you don't otherwise move. Once set up, a machine gun with a good soldier should be capable of firing 2-3 short bursts or 1 long burst in a turn. Take extra time to get mobile again as well, unless the MG is dropped.

Previously I've proposed a simple and, I think, almost elegant hack for this: kneeling while carrying a LMG would take considerably more time, but would be required to use it with any effectiveness.

[TrashMan]

I still say machineguns need Full-auto fire. (Like Jagged Alliance 2)

Number of bullets and accuracy depend on TU's.

First bullet is the most accureate and then there is a sharp decline untill it peaks after bullet X and pretty much stays there.

So I can fire with 20TU's but I will get off only half the bullets

[StellarRat]

I still say machineguns need Full-auto fire. (Like Jagged Alliance 2)

Number of bullets and accuracy depend on TU's.

First bullet is the most accureate and then there is a sharp decline untill it peaks after bullet X and pretty much stays there.

So I can fire with 20TU's but I will get off only half the bullets

They have "full auto fire". If you want more bullets down range just fire more than one time (if you have the TU's.) Realistically, long bursts aren't used by TRAINED soliders unless it's some kind of extreme situation. Not only are they inaccurate, your MG can overheat which causes all kinds of problems, and you'd go through all your ammo in no time.

[HWP]

They have "full auto fire". If you want more bullets down range just fire more than one time (if you have the TU's.) Realistically, long bursts aren't used by TRAINED soliders unless it's some kind of extreme situation.

There are reasons other than technical for machine guns not to cut off at a preset number of shots. Medium length bursts are only the primary mode of use that balances firepower, accuracy, ammo conservation and other factors; not the only one.

LMG and GPMG typically have a rapid fire rate of about 200 rpm, sustainable for 2-5 minutes. This is a lot more than just a few short bursts. It's 1:2 rate of firing to not firing, and in one game turn (presumed to be about 10 seconds) it's about 30 rounds. This is a rate that can be sustained for a while, i.e. several game turns.

Lighter SAW type LMG have their rate limited to about 100 rpm, which is still 15 rounds per turn.

[Tacobandit]

There are reasons other than technical for machine guns not to cut off at a preset number of shots. Medium length bursts are only the primary mode of use that balances firepower, accuracy, ammo conservation and other factors; not the only one.

LMG and GPMG typically have a rapid fire rate of about 200 rpm, sustainable for 2-5 minutes. This is a lot more than just a few short bursts. It's 1:2 rate of firing to not firing, and in one game turn (presumed to be about 10 seconds) it's about 30 rounds. This is a rate that can be sustained for a while, i.e. several game turns.

Lighter SAW type LMG have their rate limited to about 100 rpm, which is still 15 rounds per turn.

How long is a turn? Oh wait, no one knows. There go the real life stats.

[Betuor]

How long is a turn? Oh wait, no one knows. There go the real life stats.

True dat!

[GizmoGomez]

HWP,

I thought that SAW (Squad Automatic Weapon) was a designation one assigned to an LMG. Like, LMG is the class (for lack of a better word) of firearm, and SAW is how it's deployed. Similar to a DMR (Designated Marksman Rifle), that's not the class of the weapon, simply it's title.

So for example, the actual firearm is, say, the M249, it's an LMG, deployed in the position of SAW. Another example, the M39, it's a battle rifle, deployed in the position of DMR. See what I'm getting at?

Also, I've never heard of LMG implying a two man crew. If there were two people, the second would be used mainly in a support role, carrying ammunition, extra barrels (you're going to need them), etc. He's not absolutely necessary, though, as LMGs are designed to be able to be operated by one man, hence the term Light. They're also more mobile and easier to fire accurately, due to the smaller cartridges used, such as the 5.56mm NATO. LMGs are even classified as small arms, technically.

MMGs (Medium Machine Gun), or GPMGs (General Purpose Machine Gun) as they've been recently designated, do require more than one operator to be used effectively. These are the ones you would set up on a tripod, or lie down with a bipod, and use mainly in a stationary position. This is due to the greater weight of the weapon, and the power (and thus, recoil) of using full-power rifle cartridges, such as the 7.62mm NATO round. An example of this would be the M240, or the older M60. These, and larger guns, things like mortars, etc, are crew-served weapons and require, basically as a rule, more than one person to be used correctly and efficiently. These can also be mounted on vehicles, which unless I'm mistaken we will have some MMGs on vehicles in game.

Sorry for the long post. The explanation of the acronyms were for those who didn't know them; I'm not trying to coddle anyone if it comes off that way.

Edited February 9, 2013 by GizmoGomez
Grammar

[erutan]

@gizmo, huh that's clarifying. I only know (real, not BB) guns via books and games, and assumed the SAW was a model of gun. Sometimes it is, but that's just because sometimes a gun is named that way because it fills the SAW role. So it seems that overall SAW as a role takes precedence over SAW as a model, but it can be ambiguous.

A squad automatic weapon (SAW, also known as section automatic weapon or light support weapon) is a weapon used to give infantry squads or sections a portable source of automatic firepower.

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squad_automatic_weapon

The M249 light machine gun (LMG), previously designated the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW), and formally written as Light Machine Gun, 5.56 mm, M249, is an [...]

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M249_light_machine_gun

wikipedia pics show the M249 used prone with a bipod, but it's much more of a "run over there and fall on the ground and pop out the bipod" rather than a proper crewed MG position. I think the heavy weapon penalty + high AP cost kind of recreates the "setup" cost to use it effectively. It's kind of a shame there's not some massive debuff for using it non-crouched.

Edited February 9, 2013 by erutan

[Gauddlike]

Firing rate could be addressed by the alteration I suggested to how fire modes are handled as you would be able to fire as many (or few) shots as you had AP for.

Adding too many additional shots though just doesn't seem to work with the current mechanics of the game.

Either you tighten up the miss deviation and have a devastating weapon that is far more effective than anything that fired less shots or you keep wider deviation and it looks and feels ridiculous.

Accuracy bonus and AP cost modifier could be a function of the isHeavy flag to fit in with HWP and his suggestion for kneeling being a pre requisite for using the mg effectively.

You already get a small boost but if the increase was significant then the initial accuracy of the heavy weapon could be reduced significantly to compensate.

Firing from standing would be poor, firing while standing after moving would be practically pointless but firing after kneeling would be fairly accurate.

[TrashMan]

They have "full auto fire". If you want more bullets down range just fire more than one time (if you have the TU's.) Realistically, long bursts aren't used by TRAINED soliders unless it's some kind of extreme situation. Not only are they inaccurate, your MG can overheat which causes all kinds of problems, and you'd go through all your ammo in no time.

How many bullets do you fire for 45 TU's?

8? Thats' nothing.

[Tacobandit]

How many bullets do you fire for 45 TU's?

8? Thats' nothing.

An MG42 would've been cooler.

[StellarRat]

How many bullets do you fire for 45 TU's?

8? Thats' nothing.

I seems fine to me considering you have to make allowance for acquiring a new target that could in theory be in any direction. Remember the gun is on a bipod, so to shoot something behind you requires rotating the whole body. Also, the standard military burst is 5 - 7 rounds. Sure you could just hold down the trigger and try to spray an area, but you aren't going to hit much and your ammo will be gone in no time. Besides, I don't think we have an official amount of time that a TU represents or even a true ground scale, so gauging how much of anything happens in this game is nebulous. Edited February 11, 2013 by StellarRat

[TrashMan]

There is no such thing as a "standard" burt with auto-fire weapon.

They shoot as long as you hold down the trigger.

And how long you hold it down depends entirely on the battlefield situation.

Of course, since they have no single-fire, you always hava a minimal burst of a few round. Which is why I would have a cost range.

Let's say from 30TU to max TU.

So instead of using extra TU's to increase accuracy (like you do with other weapons), you use it to incresae burst size. This also makes machinegun a bit more usable.

And while we don't have an official amount of time, the distance a soldier can cover can give you a rough idea. Altough this is all part of balancing so basicly it has no practical value