Why do laser weapons have a recoil penalty?

[Alan]

Basic physics, all the kinetic weapons should have a recoil penalty that scales with damage output (is damage just a straight momentum transfer calculation, or does a very high speed but light weight gauss projectile do more damage than an equivalent projectile with the same momentum?), but laser or plasma weapons don't rely on the kinetic energy to do damage.

A soldier with a high enough strength to counteract the recoil penalty should be able to walk multiple shots onto the target, for an accuracy bonus for firing more shots?

Obviously this would make the laser machine gun hugely OP.  Is there space for a short range laser cannon like the MARS one, but without overlapping too much with the sniper rifle?  If you want to suppress someone, bring along a kinetic machine gun as well?  Or keep a laser machine gun, but rebalance higher accuracy and lower damage, and maybe 3/6 or 2/5 instead of 3/10?

Then the next question is how the laser shotgun actually works?

[Komandos]

7 hours ago, Alan said:

Then the next question is how the laser shotgun actually works?

Obviously: it releases a charge of laser shot in one shot.

Less obvious: it has a larger angle (a larger cone) of scattering of the laser beam. Also (theoretically) a laser shotgun should dazzle.

[Xeferah]

Actually, we don't have such high powered lasers yet IRL, but it would actually make sense if it had a recoil. As E=mc^2, energy is equivalent to mass. As you shoot forward an enormous amount of energy, this is equal to an enormous amount of mass. As there is the law of conservation of momentum such a forward force must be met with an equal amount of force backwards, just like a regular gun would have.

For plasma, this works the same as a regular gun. You do shoot superheated mass, but it's still mass. Therefore you still expect a recoil.

I hope this helps.

[Komandos]

8 hours ago, Xeferah said:

As E=mc^2, energy is equivalent to mass. As you shoot forward an enormous amount of energy, this is equal to an enormous amount of mass.

m=E/c^2 

The energy of a sniper cartridge 7.62 = 3500

Even if a laser weapon is twice as powerful as a sniper rifle.

m=7000/300 000 000^2

The soldier will not feel this recoil.

[Not Todd Howard]

IDK why I'm responding to this. I must be bored

On 9/21/2023 at 5:40 PM, Alan said:

Basic physics, all the kinetic weapons should have a recoil penalty that scales with damage output (is damage just a straight momentum transfer calculation, or does a very high speed but light weight gauss projectile do more damage than an equivalent projectile with the same momentum?), but laser or plasma weapons don't rely on the kinetic energy to do damage.

The only weapons that should have any recoil are the starter ballistic weapons. Reason why is, IRL, the projectiles are propelled by rapidly expanding gasses created by exploding gunpowder. That recoil isn't that significant either since most modern weapons are engineered to mitigate recoil as much as possible and are extremely accurate in well trained/experienced hands. Recoil effecting accuracy only becomes a major issue with prolonged gunfire. Like say having a fully automatic weapon and holding the trigger down until all the bullets are gone - it becomes harder to control where the bullets go since the violently expanding gasses make the gun want to jump around. Xenonauts 2 touches on this with how it handles the light machine guns making them fire a lot of bullets inaccurately (a little too inaccurate if you ask me). This is also one of the reasons why the M-16 was revised from a fully automatic rifle to a 3-round burst IRL.

None of the other weapons would have recoil based on their descriptions. Not even the gauss guns which are kinetic weapons, but whose projectiles are fired by powerful magnets.

On 9/21/2023 at 5:40 PM, Alan said:

Then the next question is how the laser shotgun actually works?

Its a facking video game, that's how

just a basic concept of a shotgun: a short range weapon that makes up for poor accuracy by spraying a bunch of projectiles all at once. except the bullets are now lasers and it makes a pew-pew sound when fired

Edited September 22 by Not Todd Howard

[gG-Unknown]

Lasers should be range limited weapons, where dmg is falling down with distance, each square of distance counts. Also max distance of lasers should be about 90% of balistics.

It also means, no Laser Sniper rifle, it can no work. Or the weapon would be too heavy.

I would make it so, the ammo for all lasers  are  once time use "sort of super-capacitors", which  means >> heavy and takes large of space in bag.

Here comes balance - lasers are more precise AND no recoil (laser MG is true beast) BUT  laser ammo is 3x heavier than ballistic and dmg goes down with range.

So the player need to think about weight management > get more kill  power with lasers for price of light armor ?

Sniping with lasers is no,  no. Therfore player will keep range advantage until some plazma  snipe canon comes.

 

Edited September 28 by gG-Unknown

[Komandos]

19 hours ago, gG-Unknown said:

Also max distance of lasers should be about 90% of balistics.

 

19 hours ago, gG-Unknown said:

Here comes balance - lasers are more precise AND no recoil (laser MG is true beast) BUT  laser ammo is 3x heavier than ballistic and dmg goes down with range.

Then what is the strategic point of spending huge amounts of money on: building factories and laboratories; hiring scientists and engineers; paying salaries to scientists and engineers; providing factories and laboratories with energy if ballistic weapons are superior to laser weapons in a number of important parameters?Then why would a player waste time studying laser weapons?

What is the meaning of such a "weapon balance"?

[GIraaa]

[gG-Unknown]

On 9/29/2023 at 8:33 PM, Komandos said:

ballistic weapons are superior to laser weapons in a number of important parameters?Then why would a player waste time studying laser weapons?

What is the meaning of such a "weapon balance"?

Weapon balance is about offer various weapons with various advantages.

Of course that most of advantages come with some disadvantage. That is the word balance came from.

An example : motorbike is better than bicycle, then car is better  than motorbike, then armoured car is even better. However  armored car is also heavy, slow, expensive and large and need  at least 3 people to make it work. So even armoured car is "better", efficient army will own bunch of motorbikes because some tasks are better suited for this "old tech".

Edited October 5 by gG-Unknown

[Komandos]

1 hour ago, gG-Unknown said:

An example : motorbike is better than bicycle, then car is better  than motorbike, then armoured car is even better. However  armored car is also heavy, slow, expensive and large and need  at least 3 people to make it work. So even armoured car is "better", efficient army will own bunch of motorbikes because some tasks are better suited for this "old tech".

An armored car and a motorcycle are cars of the same technological era. Just like a laser pistol, a laser rifle, a laser machine gun, a laser cannon is a weapon built using the same technology, the same technological era.

I agree that a motorcycle is in some cases better than an armored car. (Just like a laser gun is in some cases better than a laser gun).

However, ballistic weapons and laser weapons are weapons of different technological eras. Just like ballistic weapons and crossbows, these are weapons of different technological eras. Or: cars and chariots (horse-drawn carts) are vehicles of different technological eras.

The troops don't use crossbows or war chariots (horse-drawn carts) now?

 

Similarly, laser weapons should be better than ballistic weapons, as ballistic weapons are better than crossbows and catapults; as motorcycles and armored cars are better than war chariots (horse-drawn carts).

[gG-Unknown]

17 minutes ago, Komandos said:

The troops don't use crossbows or war chariots (horse-drawn carts) now?

Of course that crossbows are used. Ask SWAT or similar strike-special forces.

Horses were common part of artillery unit at WW2 beginning.

Horses are used as we speak by border patrols or special miliitary. And of course police force.

New generation of weapons-equipment has some better  attributes, but not all. Some attributes could be even worse.

For example: Maxim a machine-gun from WW1 can shoot longer bursts with higher accuracy  than modern Machine-guns used by current army.

[Komandos]

11 hours ago, gG-Unknown said:

For example: Maxim a machine-gun from WW1 can shoot longer bursts with higher accuracy  than modern Machine-guns used by current army.

Maxim machine gun and modern machine guns are the same balistic technology. (the same technological era). If we take the previous technological era, then crossbows cannot compare in rate of fire with modern machine guns.

11 hours ago, gG-Unknown said:

Horses were common part of artillery unit at WW2 beginning.

This did not prevent the horses from yielding to the tanks: in strength, in speed, in firepower and cross-country terrain.

Scientists and engineers of the past had no reason to make tanks equal in terms of tactical and technical characteristics - horse parameters (and even worse in some parameters), scientists and engineers of the past had no reason to make Maxim machine guns equal in terms of tactical and technical characteristics to crossbows. And scientists and engineers of the future will have no reason to make laser weapons bad compared to ballistic ones.

[Komandos]

14 hours ago, gG-Unknown said:

Weapon balance is about offer various weapons with various advantages.

Balance is a dynamic process. And the balance in the game can be present only when the opponent reacts adequately to the player's actions. Making ballistic weapons and laser weapons the same in the game in terms of strength is not a balance. Balance is when: if a player has a laser weapon (a laser weapon appears), then the enemy invents a weapon that can compete with laser weapons, or changes tactics, armor, depriving the player's soldiers of all the advantages of laser weapons.

Edited October 6 by Komandos

[skaianDestiny]

That's not how game balance works.

[Chris]

This is a fair point, and I'm about to patch it so that Lasers have half the recoil of other weapons (you can assume the remainder is spinning magnets destabilising the weapon or something).

It's always nice to have separation between the different tiers of weapons. If it causes balance issues we can tweak something else about the Lasers to compensate.

[Komandos]

On 10/20/2023 at 10:38 AM, Chris said:

It's always nice to have separation between the different tiers of weapons. If it causes balance issues we can tweak something else about the Lasers to compensate.

New weapon levels = new balance levels. Ideally, each "technological era" should have its own balance. Weapons of different "technological eras" should not be at the same level of efficiency.

[gG-Unknown]

9 hours ago, Komandos said:

New weapon levels = new balance levels. Ideally, each "technological era" should have its own balance. Weapons of different "technological eras" should not be at the same level of efficiency.

It is wrong Ideology which do not mirror real world or even game practice. I told you that before, now even Chris confirms that. Deal with it.

[Komandos]

4 hours ago, gG-Unknown said:

It is wrong Ideology which do not mirror real world or even game practice.

Are weapons of different technological eras comparable in terms of their tactical and technical characteristics in the real world? Are a rock, a projectile and a nuclear missile comparable in terms of destruction in the real world?

[Hayung]

19 hours ago, Komandos said:

New weapon levels = new balance levels. Ideally, each "technological era" should have its own balance. Weapons of different "technological eras" should not be at the same level of efficiency.

An interesting premise sure, but not one currently used in the game dynamic.

If we consider the weapon tiers different 'technological eras' shouldn't fighting aliens with plasma feel like bringing bows to a gun fight? or pistols to an artillery duel? the current balance doesn't even come close to that experience. 

in fact it very much feels like we have guns, and they have superior guns. 

I think the idea of different weapon tiers adding more utility to the player's toolkit rather than just being straight upgrades far more interesting AND plausible. Because lets be real, ballistic weapons are pretty 'A-tier' at delivering sharp object to body with velocity. To go from that to a next 'tier' similar to going from the bow and arrow to the gun would need to be something incredibly destructive. 

I think it could be really interesting both for balance/lore for some of the best alien defensive tech to actually be highly optimised for weapons more similar to theirs. 

[Komandos]

At the moment: the weapons of different "technological eras" in the game are fundamentally no different from each other. The new technology only adds more damage, and no new properties and no new . All improvements look exactly the same as improvements: Arrows with a silicon tip - Arrows with an iron tip - Arrows   with a tip of depleted uranium.

I would add for laser weapons: incendiary effect, blinding effect. The "chainsaw" effect (wide beam). This means that accuracy is always 100% (if there are no obstacles between the weapon and the soldiers / target / target), since the width of the laser beam is several meters.pan widgetspan widgetspan widget

 

[Advika]

Currently, in the game, weapons from different technological eras lack distinct characteristics. They mainly differ in terms of damage output without introducing new properties or effects. This results in all upgrades appearing the same, whether it's arrows with a silicon tip, iron tip, or depleted uranium tip.

To enhance the gaming experience, I suggest introducing unique features for laser weapons. These features could include incendiary effects, blinding effects, and a "chainsaw" effect, which involves a wide beam. This would mean that laser weapons maintain a constant accuracy of 100%, provided there are no obstacles between the weapon and the target, as the laser beam's width spans several meters. By incorporating these distinct properties, the game's weapons will feel more technologically diverse and engaging.

[gG-Unknown]

Advika - sort of agree.

Laser pistol should work as strong flash-light - blind the target in range up  to 5 tiles.

Laser MG - should be rather beam - even it is only graphical difference - I would like to see continuous beam rather than pew-pew. Becouse of beam gives great feedback of aiming at target - longer the burst makes it more precise. add full burst mode consuming 90% of TU which is not useble in overwatch - fire 20 bulets.

However, laser weapons should loose dmg by range  and can be blocked by smoke.

[Raffik]

1 hour ago, gG-Unknown said:

Laser MG - should be rather beam - even it is only graphical difference - I would like to see continuous beam rather than pew-pew. Becouse of beam gives great feedback of aiming at target - longer the burst makes it more precise. add full burst mode consuming 90% of TU which is not useble in overwatch - fire 20 bulets.

However, laser weapons should loose dmg by range  and can be blocked by smoke.

Agree. I believe that it would it make sense to change the laser MG to heavy laser gun. Instead of firing a burst of 3 or 10, it could fire either a single shot (slightly higher damage - 46 and armor destruction - 12) than laser rifle or a continuous beam (with much more damage - 56 and armor destruction - 20) 

The whole concept of LMG makes more sense with kinetic weapons than laser weaponry imo..

[Komandos]

Laser weapons must have the modes "target ignition", "target blinding", "100% accuracy". Or combine these modes together.

[Jeevika]

Quote

Hello,,

 

In video games, laser guns usually incur a recoil penalty to keep things realistic and balanced. Lasers don't recoil physically like guns do, but it's incorporated for a challenge in gameplay and to bring energy-based weaponry up to level with conventional ballistic weapons.