Suggestions from an old men.

[Mordobb]

Well i played the demo yesterday and i have to say it is the first time since old X-com timeframe that i feel a good iteration of X-com.

I m downloading the stuff right now.

UFO extratererestrial was a failure, UFO aftermath was almost there abit lacking something, UFO:Afterlight almost there too .. JA:BIA is crap.

I was first introduced to TFTD and bought and played many times UFO:EU and Apocalipse.

Then i went to UFO: Aftermath, up to Afterlight, extraterrestrial gold (despair on this one)

So Xenonauts.... i m impressed.

There is only one major thing that bugs me, rest are wishes.

The distressing enerving stuff:

The damn Civilian AI. And no, i don t care it being slow.

I care about it being exact equivalent of a rockroach... 3 second short span memory. Running there then forget what happened and run back here to the alien side if survive run away then rince and repeat.....appaling.

I would even forget if one or other random would do such, but all, and this almost 2 decades from UFO:EU ? Sad, very sad.

Normal behavior is:

1) run away from threats

or

2) lock themselves inhouse

and

3) run toward law enforcement or military for protection.

So i would like to see civilian running toward my soldiers and common soldiers, and them being redirected for the chinook for example and running away from the UFO (if an alien start shooting around, you wont stay joging around, you would sprint the hell out). This would give some immersion to the game and could bring interesting situations since we are there to kick aliens and protect populace.

No need to animate anything, text or talk or any bullshit, just screen behavior.

Now minor stuff:

A higher dream for the AI would be:

Alien acting as squad (sometimes), and ambushing or flanking (not only rushing) or doing a total rush.

Ok resuming diferent alien behaviors during battle. (diferrent ai being applied)

Since the org if financed NATO/VARSOVIA, would be fun to have at disposition: AK47, Dragunov, RPK, RPG7 and Makarov. All those sligthly diferenciated in characteristics (range/weight/damage/qtd of ammo per clip) from their western counterparts, this would add a lot of flavor to the game.

Uniform... this blue/grey is sad... ho so sad (Maybe thats why the troops look so depressed in the arming screen). Please put some camo in it can be any camo but damn it a camo.(Look at WW2 camos)

The arming screen of the game in the demo sucks in visual. I understand it preserve a style, but soldier body posture and faces look like a bunch of crack addicted just after a stone, would be fitting for a zombie squad.

Please put some military stance, pride and form in that!!!

World map is boring... can t you do something more spiced ? Nightside lightning of cities? frontiers always shinning? messages remaining on the screen and not linked to time acceleration? Fake 3d map with terrain elevation?

Here a link just food for thought:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://cienctec.com.br/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/412091main_PIA12090_full-1024x472.jpg&imgrefurl=http://cienctec.com.br/wordpress/index.php/mapa-de-elevacao-digital-global/&h=472&w=1024&sz=121&tbnid=-j_87RE-53LxnM:&tbnh=55&tbnw=120&prev=/search%3Fq%3Deleva%25C3%25A7%25C3%25A3o%2Bem%2Bmapa%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=eleva%C3%A7%C3%A3o+em+mapa&usg=__KBzvC8tntnBRC7jKaFYRbpP_z4E=&docid=jJ0GwXIrA1n6LM&sa=X&ei=Ti6sUICJFpLW9ASG-4HgBg&ved=0CDgQ9QEwAg&dur=519

I would like to see some reshearch to improve comon weapons (silencer, scope for the like for weapons, underrifle 40mm nade launcher.) No need to show inmap (but the nade launcher), just in the arming screen... the knowledge that ubber advanced weaponry could be a bit more timeconsuming and paliatives would be found meanwhile.

I always found it a bit dismaying being able to reproduce laser and whatever whizbang weaponry in month when we aren t even able to reproduce them after decades of reshearch.

Well nothing extraordinary here in my post i suppose. Probably most already demanded.

Awesome points of the game:

Aerial fights

Tactical combat

Setting are good too

[Max_Caine]

Regarding the AI: Take a look at this thread, this post and this post (they are presented in chronological order).

Regarding moar guns: I believe (am not 100% certain) an offical mod for soviet style weapons will be going in. But it will be a mod - it won't be in the game otherwise. There have been many, many discussions about having more guns in the game. Chris doesn't feel that slight variations on the same weapon merit the work necessary to implement them.

EDIT: Just checked the art assets. There are art assets for the AK, Makarov, PK, RPG7, Dragunov SVD and shotgun (doesn't say model). Checking further, the AK has also been fully modelled for all Xenonaut armour types (because certain allies are armed with AKs and you can pick up and use them in a battle). So even if there isn't an offical mod, an unoffical one would be very easy.

Edited November 21, 2012 by Max_Caine

[erutan]

Major cities lighting up at night has been suggested and there are some possible ways to do that with overlays if I recall. Probably not something that will be done until beta/polish.

I enjoyed the wording on the crack addict zombie squad.

I think camo is out as it'd require re-rendering the sprites for each environment, and the current blue feels kind of UN/international. It'll be moot when power armor is there.

Again re: weapons, the point isn't to focus on the human made ones but to research/build through the next 3 tiers. I see where you're going, but researching a minor perk upgrade vs. new tech doesn't seem worth it. I enjoyed tweaking weapon ugprades in JA2, Mass Effect 1, 7.62mm, etc but this isn't that type of game.

[Xcom Veteran]

Hi, good post Mordobb. Especially on civilians AI.

I always found it a bit dismaying being able to reproduce laser and whatever whizbang weaponry in month when we aren t even able to reproduce them after decades of reshearch.

I just want to add that maybe laser should use some alien technology/materials like elirium fuel or alien alloys? Problem is power of laser weapons so some alien knowledge should be needed to develop and produce them.

[Mordobb]

Major cities lighting up at night has been suggested and there are some possible ways to do that with overlays if I recall. Probably not something that will be done until beta/polish.

I enjoyed the wording on the crack addict zombie squad.

I think camo is out as it'd require re-rendering the sprites for each environment, and the current blue feels kind of UN/international. It'll be moot when power armor is there.

Again re: weapons, the point isn't to focus on the human made ones but to research/build through the next 3 tiers. I see where you're going, but researching a minor perk upgrade vs. new tech doesn't seem worth it. I enjoyed tweaking weapon ugprades in JA2, Mass Effect 1, 7.62mm, etc but this isn't that type of game.

About the weaponry adds:

Minor point, would add up to modernization and some gizmo could easely last the entire game (scopes, grenade laucher)

About the cammo, i wasn t thinking in a cammo for each environment, just a better uniform than this blue shift that look as wanna be special forces... non military. (especially with the specs they have)

Good to know the map will be less brand...

anyway nice game so far. Tonight willplay with the downloaded current version.

[Mordobb]

Regarding the AI: Take a look at this thread, this post and this post (they are presented in chronological order).

Regarding moar guns: I believe (am not 100% certain) an offical mod for soviet style weapons will be going in. But it will be a mod - it won't be in the game otherwise. There have been many, many discussions about having more guns in the game. Chris doesn't feel that slight variations on the same weapon merit the work necessary to implement them.

EDIT: Just checked the art assets. There are art assets for the AK, Makarov, PK, RPG7, Dragunov SVD and shotgun (doesn't say model). Checking further, the AK has also been fully modelled for all Xenonaut armour types (because certain allies are armed with AKs and you can pick up and use them in a battle). So even if there isn't an offical mod, an unoffical one would be very easy.

Oficial Mod sound weird...

I think that something you could easely pass to 3rd party, and concentrate on the core of the game. some companies out there rightfully 3rd party some visual parts (usually 3d models of tanks, planes etc) so it doesn t eat the budget or waste precious hours on noncore aspect of the game.

Think on it althought non core, it add a lot of flavour and some replayability.

others aspect could be 3rd partied and you only had to supervise work.

[Mordobb]

Regarding the AI: Take a look at this thread, this post and this post (they are presented in chronological order).

Thanks MAX.

I ve read the stuff (most of it) couldn t afford to read all the AI guy thread tough.

There s much about the combat AI but i haven t seen a thread about NON COMBAT AI.

And this is the stand of my grudge NON COMBAT AI. But i shall take a look at the actuall version tonight.

AI combat i won t even enter, too much of a can of worm, unless i find the game too easely beatable on Insane. If so i'll say "bring more cops".

Unless you post was intended to show me the place i should post about AI.

Thinking with my RPG head, one thing i always found weird is the alive or dead. usually a combatant have 3 state, Alive, Fubar and Dead.

A small system of negative HP (like JA:BIA) would be interesting. could say: alive till 0 HP, disabled and not coming back to this battle field until -10% but will be treated on the base, and dead beyond -10% HP, insert long period of non combat.

This would create some bound to the soldiers (especially the developed ones), make more sense and possibly soldiers won t be as expandable.

OBS: it seems you already put a bleeding system, it would bland in perfectly.

Aliens could be sadistic and shoot downed soldier when no other threat is around.

And for battlefield results disabled = dead, so no hopes of getting stuck in combat because of a stabilized disabled that game consider alive...

More stuff after i ve played current version.

Thanks.

ERR: has it been discussed, or implemented ? i m talking over my experience with the demo.

[Max_Caine]

Well, I was hoping to show you a thread where you could talk to the AI developer directly. From what I can tell, as far as he is concerned the AI foundation and systems are the same whether it is an alien, an ai solider or a civilian. If you're talking about the Kickstarter demo, that didn't have any ai to speak of.

[Khall]

There is a similar negative health system already in. When a soldier's HP hits 0 there is still a chance he will be revived at the end of the mission (says 1% HP in the after action report). Higher negative HP reduces the chance of a revival (-20HP has no chance).

[Mordobb]

There is a similar negative health system already in. When a soldier's HP hits 0 there is still a chance he will be revived at the end of the mission (says 1% HP in the after action report). Higher negative HP reduces the chance of a revival (-20HP has no chance).

Ok why not simplify and once disabled it requires a medpack fix (up to 0 ?) not to die.

Hunt alien or stabilize my buddy that is downed ? loose time stabilysing my buddy and maybe be shot by lack of reaction or maybe let die my elite guy ? Those are the questions aren t they ?

The sistem doesn t involve the player, it should, its just a random dice roll... it shouldn t be.

Allow me to be franck, as it is now, it may very well be removed because it doesn t interact with the customer (player) so customer won t be concerned about it and so won t take notice of it, so its irrelevent.

[Mordobb]

Well, I was hoping to show you a thread where you could talk to the AI developer directly. From what I can tell, as far as he is concerned the AI foundation and systems are the same whether it is an alien, an ai solider or a civilian. If you're talking about the Kickstarter demo, that didn't have any ai to speak of.

Thank for the heads up Max.. will write in the AI programer thread.

[zzz1010]

I always found it a bit dismaying being able to reproduce laser and whatever whizbang weaponry in month when we aren t even able to reproduce them after decades of reshearch.

Chinise for thousand years has powder and can't invent firearms but show them ak and tomorrow they make own

To invent and to copy is different things

And there always lot of alien materials involved, humans just didn't have such magical things, this is why they previously can't make this.

Edited November 21, 2012 by zzz1010

[Max_Caine]

Mordobb, given that my minimum squad size is 8, can go up to 12 if I don't take a vehicle and will likely go higher (up to 16 if I remember correctly), there's no loss to me if a Xenonaut is so badly hurt that another squaddie has to stablise him, because I have enough manpower. There's no tension, no hard decision to make because I have enough troops to cover the medic stablising his buddy. And if there is a guaranteed system where I can save troopers, you take away permanent death.

[zzz1010]

. And if there is a guaranteed system where I can save troopers, you take away permanent death.

Yes, in xcom-like game soldiers should always die, victims will be inevitable, this is main difference(for me) from ja-like game

Edited November 21, 2012 by zzz1010

[Mordobb]

Well, if then survival aint a problem then

1) Why bother putting effort in survival

2) Game s too easy, up the diff, if even then it doesn t get hard enought, then game too easy and dev must be warned.

If the death of an experienced soldier doesn t affect you

1) See Nº 2) of previous item

2) Soldiers lvl up too easely and this should be reviewed.

By the way i wasn t thinking something near like JA:BIA, this is a bad joke if one survive all the group survive ... being able to stabilize someone and recover without serious medical care, and fast ? no way. Thats what i want to avoid.

I was just playing the last iteration on veteran before it CTD, and i observed that:

Sistem os good but soldiers get increases too fast.

Games seems too easy

Too much hitpoint on the medic pack

AND/OR not heavy enought.

Back on topic i would say:

1) Cut half (at least) the medipack hit point) and make him heavyer so it become a decision.

2) Negative hitpoint before dead being 10% rounded down is just 10HP to a 100HP soldier quite easy to die. I totally agree soldiers must die with a good frequence and should not survive much longer after downed.

3) If downed bleeding should be paramount so a soldier would not survive much more than 1 or 2 max 3 rounds.

4) Its comeback to activity should take a long time. But this point is only valid IF soldier raise is slow and it doesn t seem to be the case as i said before.

On another note:

Many bugs and weirdneiss on this version where should i report ? Suppose bugs thread.

but about game balance were to post ?

ZZZ1010 i agree with you.

The same way adaptation of an similar but ankward weapon should be imediate (just days) (why recreating the whole weapon if i can basicly adapt its format so it become confortable to use ?

And anyway its not totally like you say.. many countries knows fully how to build a Nuke, but even then very few are able. so its not just a matter of copying there s a whole array of settings influencing, like tecnology park and material furnisher.

Japoneses copy faster and better than Chineses because their industry park array is more advanced (at least was).

so i still think maybe we acquire in those games the building a bit too fast. But thats only me.

[Max_Caine]

Mordobb... you have missed the point I have made. Your proposed system to replace the current one (where a squaddie stablises a solider whose HP is below 0) combined with a large squad size means that if a solider is 0 HP or less, unless the player is an idiot and plays soliders "lone wolf" there will always be other soliders around the hurt solider who can save his life. This isn't like XCOM:EU, where you only have six soliders with only one class out of four who can stablise soliders, so you are forced to make choices about who lives and who dies. If I give all my soliders a medipack then any of my soldiers can stabilise badly hurt solider in the same turn he goes below 0 HP. And if I have a good chance of saving that solider then I don't care if the medipack is heavy. It is worth taking because I can save guys I would not be able to otherwise. If you want the medipack idea to work, then you have to introduce a random element - i.e. like the system now where there is only a chance a solider below 0 HP will live, and only give one chance to stablise the solider or if one guy fails, then anyone else could do it too.

[Gumballthechewy]

Regarding moar guns: I believe (am not 100% certain) an offical mod for soviet style weapons will be going in. But it will be a mod - it won't be in the game otherwise. There have been many, many discussions about having more guns in the game. Chris doesn't feel that slight variations on the same weapon merit the work necessary to implement them.

EDIT: Just checked the art assets. There are art assets for the AK, Makarov, PK, RPG7, Dragunov SVD and shotgun (doesn't say model). Checking further, the AK has also been fully modelled for all Xenonaut armour types (because certain allies are armed with AKs and you can pick up and use them in a battle). So even if there isn't an offical mod, an unoffical one would be very easy.

About guns, I was thinking maybe if there was an SMG type gun; smaller, lighter, weaker and less accurate at longer ranges than a rifle but better for CQB and maybe classed as a one-handed weapon and having the laser/other weapon tier equivalents.

I was just messing around in the soldiers tab and looking through the 'roles' and seeing commando and thought SMG, probably just a dumb idea.

[zzz1010]

, I was thinking maybe if there was an SMG type gun

Shotgun is only starting cqb weapon, next researches(like laser) for same role will be smg-like

Edited November 22, 2012 by zzz1010

[Gumballthechewy]

Shotgun is only starting cqb weapon, next researches(like laser) for same role will be smg-like

Yeah the Laser Carbine is SMG like.

[Mordobb]

i haven t missed your point, i probably haven t made myself suficiently clear.

i haven t sayd that a soldier dropping =0hp.

i' ve said give up to -10 Hp to soldiers.(10% of actual life rounded down.)

This mean:

soldier has 25 hit point Alien inflict 50 = Soldier dead. 50-25-10(assuming soldier full life is 100hp)= -15.

Lets take an example of a inicial soldier:

60 HP.

1 hit by alien rifle 62 hp.. Soldier drop and get -4 bleeding per round. If nobody heals it this round he dies 62+4 =66 (60HP+6hp(10% of life, but it could be 5% rounded up))

Now the alien is out there, with auto fire ? are my point suficient to stabilize it ? Is it worth saving it at risk of dying another soldier or not? was the alien far, if so will i find it in this round or not ?

Maybe your better than me but my soldiers dies a lot and from middle mission to end of it (as long theres a reasonable number of aliens) actually few soldiers survives, and saving a soldier that is good or get a damn rookie is a choice to consider even if the wounded one will get a month or more to get on his feets.

another point i think, is the fact the medikit is too light. And 2 point of AP can make the diference between being able to shoot(and win a map) or not(and die).

Of couse some aspect of the game would have to be slightly balanced (medikit healing power, Medikit weight, time to perform heal, time of healing of soldiers, soldiers "upgrade" rate, etc), but INHO the game need balance.

Also this is to be (i hope) a modernization of a 15 years old game not just a reskin.

We have to attract new players, new players have a hunger for akin to reality features, so lets try to think like players that are kin to this kind of games.

Medics in squads are a reality since WW2, lets put it to work.

Maybe some some slight perks(specialization) for soldiers, i don t know. Lets think stuff around.

[Mordobb]

First thing i wondered when i saw Commando is why there s no SMG.

And first thing i thouhgt when i saw Shotgun, was whats the hell this is doing there ?

SMG is the weapon of choice from commandos with riffles, not shotguns.

[erutan]

Given the engine doesn't allow for an actual buckshot spread, it doesn't seem to make sense to me that assault are using slugs for CQB over a carbine/bullpup/smg. I'm not sure it really matters (or is worth redoing art/sprites for) but iirc a main benefit of shotguns in CQB is that you don't have to aim them as precisely as a gun firing traditional bullets.

The AA-12 was produced in 1972 (http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/usa/atchisson-aa-12-e.html) so that might work. Lower the range/accuracy even more but add a burst to it to compensate for lack of spread?

[Mordobb]

Autmatic shotguns are really a hellish weapon.

I can see the buckshot being a heaver "bullet" it'll do much more damage but would be limited in range (IRL 100m efectiveness).

It doesnt pierce but at shortrange it can rip an armor.

Since its heavy and not so penetrating, it could do less damage to armored foe but eat its AP ? (By unbalancing the ennemy)

This could be an interesting factor in able to be inserted correctly in the game. (negating reaction shot)

Another factor that could be cool is: Shotguns are necessary to open locked doors...Thats why army use them anyway.

IF i am not mistaken there s incendiary ammo, but it works like pellet and has a range of 20M max.

As for buckshots you have to aim the same deal as a normal weapon since there s no spread out ?

[erutan]

Currently in game it uses a slug (due to engine limits) not shot. I think you have the two mixed up in your post.

I suppose you could subtract AP from a unit on the next turn, but it seems kind of an odd mechanic unless you could take away enough that it couldn't effectively act (if I'm close enough to use a shotgun, I'm close enough to die next turn!)... then you'd basically need to add that to rockets, grenades, sniper rifles, etc. Might get overly complex.

If one fired a really fast (near instantaneous) "burst" of slugs that were very inaccurate but were restricted to a narrow spread that might emulate shot?

[Mordobb]

Your right i mixed buckshot and slug, dumb me

I guess it could emulate.

But shot have a bad habit to bounce on hard surfaces, you don t want them to bounce back at your face i suppose

They have very few penetrating effect.