X-COM: EU (2012) and what it could bring to Xenonauts

[ObLoM]

Hi guys,

I've just premium pre-ordered Xenonauts about a week after beating the new X-COM game from Firaxis on Classic Ironman. I've been following the project passively since its conception and even posted a few times on the old forums, but I haven't had the time to dive in-depth into Xenonauts until now. Now that that's out of the way, I wanted to share a few positives from the new X-COM game that I think made the game more fluid than the original, as well as a few things that were very bad ideas.

I realize that this is very far in the development pipeline, but it could be that some of these good mechanics can be taken into account nonetheless.

The Good:

• Cover system: The cover system (taken in a vacuum) was in my opinion very well set up. Simple yet complex at the same time. Barring a few silly objects that provide cover, the idea of half and full cover is great. Flanking is also part of this mechanic also worked very well. Most likely this sort of mechanic is already in Xenonauts.
  
• Soldier progression: This is another system that impressed me. Very simple, yet very powerful. You have to make a meaningful (usually) choice at every rank. This is how you customize and build your squad, allowing them to complement each other. I did absolutely hate all of the item-related abilities (especially ones that were a must). I.E. 3 uses on medkit, smoke grenade, extra rockets, extra grenades.
  
• Soldier customization: Not much to say here. There was a lot of customization available, which added to the overall immersion, and helped you get attached to your soldiers. We all know, losing soldiers you are attached to is an integral part of X-COM.
  
• Ironman mode: Trivial to implement, incredibly fun. The argument that people can play Ironman style by just not loading is flawed - the temptations are too strong. Not having that option changes the game completely. This is one feature that I think should make it into Xenonauts - it's simple to implement and incredibly powerful.
  
• Base building: This is more about synergies between facilities. It's such a fun idea I'd love to see it in X-COM. It doesn't need to astounding things, but small bonuses would make base building more fun than just using space where you have space.
  
• Movement system: Not having to worry about time units and seeing exactly where you can move and how and the idea that you have to decide whether you want to take a shot or move some more made the gameplay much more enjoyable. This played very nicely with the Overwatch ability. Again, simple, but powerful.
  
• Foundry projects: I loved the idea of improving existing equipment and having yet another "research" hub, but without a tree as such. Fun.
  
• Live alien captures: This made the UFO missions shine. You wanted to capture live aliens. You wanted to interrogate them and get those juicy bonuses. This was well done. The fact that alien weapons destroyed themselves on death was irritating though.
  
• Information display: Important information about abilities, aliens that you've researched (in combat) etc. hi chance was easily accessible in game with a breakdown of what modifiers apply and why. This is CRITICAL for learning and understanding the game and ultimately made the game enjoyable despite its huge shortcomings in other areas.
  

The Bad:

• Soldier loadout: There was a distinct lack in selecting loadout for your soldiers. While I really liked the item slots system for extra armor/utility things, I really hated that I can't bring extra grenades/rockets/flares/stun guns/etc. The one positive was the fact that I didn't have to worry about ammunition for conventional firearms. It was just a hassle in the original.
  
• Abduction missions: This felt like a very artificial way to make the game challenging. These missions were usually easy and boring.
  
• Research tree: Not enough research, not enough research variety, laser weapons too powerful, or plasma weapons too weak.
  
• Soldier psionics: There's a good reason why Xenonauts doesn't have it. Although, it did make the game exciting because not every soldier was gifted and there was a strategic decision involved in testing your soldiers. Problem came down to 180 will soldier mind controlling an Ethereal with 91% likelihood to then mind control more stuff. Mind control gets out of hand. The first two abilities were pretty good though, and even the mind control alternative. Just not mind control itself.
  
• Base management: Why can't I manufacture cool toys and sell them? Why can't I sell anything and everything? Why can't I hire scientists/engineers? One good thing here was council requests for items. Rest was pretty rotten.
  

The Ugly:

• Pull mechanics: Missions felt like World of Warcraft dungeons, where you pull a pack at a time and destroy them before moving on to the next pack. Really horrible mechanic that should never ever be in an X-COM game.
  
• Combat mechanics: Why can't I shoot my gun at walls to take down cover? I can miss and take down cover though? Why does my rocket have such a short range? Why is my sniper unable to even attempt a shot across the map without Squad Sight ability? Aspects of this were awful.
  
• Interception: What? How did they manage to make it worse than the original?
  

[Gorlom]

Not sure if you have noticed this or not, but you might be interested in what the Xenonauts Project manager has learned from looking at EU2012

here is the link: clicky

[CJueroX]

Well thought out list - Xenonauts already has Ironman mode by the way

I mostly agree with your points [though I found cover to be fairly useless when weapon fire tends to magically go through it and hit you (more often than I like)]. I have enjoyed the new XCOM but only because I take it for its merits, if I compared it too heavily to the original game then I would probably be disappointed.

So far Xenonauts looks to recreate much of the original XCom while improving in some areas that should make the game shine [the events system is a nifty addition].

[Sinfullyvannila]

I don't agree with most of your negatives, I think they were good for EU, but I can definitely see why they would not work for XN.

While it may not be best to implement it the way the new one did, I think the concept of Abduction Missions were a good idea. Maybe if you shoot down an abduction ship, you get a bonus, if you shoot it down but don't send a ground team, you break even, if it lands and the country has to call you in, you get a penalty, if that happens, but you don't respond, you get a major penalty.

I actually liked some of the things they did with base management. Getting rid of base defense was a good idea, despite it not being very realistic that aliens didn't raid your base. It was a BS mechanic that punished you for doing well. I like that they streamlined the "resources"(living quarters and general stores) down to just power. I like that the deeper you dug, the more expensive it was. Liked the new additions(Officer School and Foundry), but I didn't like how Labs were basically useless.

I liked how there were no useless techs(well, Laser Cannons were pretty useless I guess). I thought the technologies were all really well designed, but anything after Lasers and Carapace armor should have had a LOT longer research times.

[DaCruise]

Just want to add on one of the things that I think XCOM:EU does really well and that is the sounds, especially the weapons sound.

My headset almost explodes every time a soldier fires an LMG and in generel there is a lot of weight and meat behind almost every weapon when its fired. I really think Firaxis nailed it on that regard.

I also love that the aliens get tossed around like rag dolls when hit by grenades or other explosives.

I dont know what its like in Xenonauts as I haven´t played it for about a year but I really hope Chris and co. can nail it like Firaxis did when it comes to weapon sounds as it adds so much enjoyment to the game if it has good sound effects.

[ObLoM]

Yeah I have read that post about a week ago. This post here is some of my own impressions of the game. It's actually not entirely complete as I got bored of typing and it was getting pretty lengthy!

[ObLoM]

The problem with abduction missions was that there was no ship. They just spawned. I had satellites and interceptors on every continent with the "decoder" device (which I think increases the number of detections) and I never noticed any way to prevent an abduction mission. That's what I mean by artificial.

Agree with base building being nice. However, I do also like the classic X-COM base management, it just needs a bit of spicing up (like the link bonuses). Also no "general stores" mechanic makes you feel a lot less miserable about looting UFOs. I still maintain that not being able to sell anything and everything is a major downside.

About useless techs - did any X-COM game ever have such an issue? I can't recall any research being useless, except maybe autopsies. The autopsies were nicely handled here, just like the interrogations.

[karthink]

The only thing about XCOM: EU that I wish Xenonauts had was a better gunfire/projectile system. Slow moving white bars as bullets are making it hard to take guns seriously. Lasers as beams would be great too.

Also, I must be one of the few who like the cutscenes in XCOM. There was some talk about homeworld style storyboard type expository cutscenes at key moments in the game. That would be fantastic too.

But with most other design decisions, I'm with Xenonauts. I actually prefer Xenonauts' 2D engine and sprites to XCOM's 3D.

[Sinfullyvannila]

About useless techs - did any X-COM game ever have such an issue? I can't recall any research being useless, except maybe autopsies. The autopsies were nicely handled here, just like the interrogations.

Autopsies beyond the first, Entertainment, Food, Surgery and Examination Rooms were all useless and there were also techs of dubious value like Laser Defenses and Plasma Rifles.

[xcorps]

The autopsies, entertainment, food, surgery, and exam rooms weren't meant to influence gameplay. They were flavor. Useless? In battle, yes. As part of the experiance of Xcom? YMMV.

I still maintain that not being able to sell anything and everything is a major downside

I very strongly agree with this. I'm very disappointed with the decision to handle items this way in Xeno.

[TrashMan]

Aliens attackign your base is NOT punishing the player for doing good. It's the aliens reacting to your threat.

What did you expect - the aliens to twiddle their thumbs once they locate your base?

Also, I'm not that much agaisnt selling fabricated items thing. For the most part I expect XCOM (and Xenonauts) to share anything they come up with with the world. The blueprints for those laser rifles were most likely on the tables of the presidents of the major countries first thing in the morning.

You may be abel to sell a few on hte black market.

Selling actual alien artifacts that can't be replicated easily make sense tough.

[ObLoM]

Aliens attackign your base is NOT punishing the player for doing good. It's the aliens reacting to your threat.

What did you expect - the aliens to twiddle their thumbs once they locate your base?

Also, I'm not that much agaisnt selling fabricated items thing. For the most part I expect XCOM (and Xenonauts) to share anything they come up with with the world. The blueprints for those laser rifles were most likely on the tables of the presidents of the major countries first thing in the morning.

You may be abel to sell a few on hte black market.

Selling actual alien artifacts that can't be replicated easily make sense tough.

But sharing a design and having actually produced ones are different things. And in-fact, I would LOVE to see you get the ability to sell your designs to governments (just once per design), or maybe have some special requests (like council requests in X-COM 2012) for blueprints and/or manufactured items. It makes the world come alive.

[Sinfullyvannila]

The autopsies, entertainment, food, surgery, and exam rooms weren't meant to influence gameplay. They were flavor. Useless? In battle, yes. As part of the experiance of Xcom? YMMV.

I never said they were pointless, but they are useless. In fact, they are detrimental, since you have to spend time researching them. If you are going to include something to research, there should be some reward to it. Flavor doesn't preclude purpose.

Aliens attackign your base is NOT punishing the player for doing good. It's the aliens reacting to your threat.

What did you expect - the aliens to twiddle their thumbs once they locate your base?

It's both. Just because it has a logical explanation doesn't mean it's a good idea. It's rubberbanding at it's worse, and it made X-Com worse for having included it. It's not even just bad game design(though it was HORRIBLY designed in UD), it's counter-design. Even Roguelike designers, the genre which generally defines brutal difficulty and arcane learning philosophies, know better than to include this kind of cheap crap in their game. I hope the developers understand that all that glitters isn't gold, and simply dismiss any mention of this feature in a positive light.

[Gorlom]

I very strongly agree with this. I'm very disappointed with the decision to handle items this way in Xeno.

what do you mean? That you can't sell the starting equipment that you get for free? Or that you will never be given a chance to sell alien gear you don't need since the game automaticly sell unusable items that are not used in manufacturing?

Edited November 7, 2012 by Gorlom

[ObLoM]

what do you mean? That you can't sell the starting equipment that you get for free? Or that you will never be given a chance to sell alien gear you don't need since the game automaticly sell unusable items that are not used in manufacturing?

That you can't sell your carapace armors once you moved on to titan armor. That you can't manufacture laser rifles just to sell them etc. - is I think what he meant!

[Spartan_Marine88]

Movement system: Not having to worry about time units and seeing exactly where you can move and how and the idea that you have to decide whether you want to take a shot or move some more made the gameplay much more enjoyable. This played very nicely with the Overwatch ability. Again, simple, but powerful.

I can never agree with this, the movement system is what got me to turn off Xcom EU (Although the rest of its toned down and simplified game play didn't help) and i hope never to see it in Xenonauts or any other tactical turn based ever again.

[Sinfullyvannila]

That you can't sell your carapace armors once you moved on to titan armor. That you can't manufacture laser rifles just to sell them etc. - is I think what he meant!

I hope they don't allow you to profit from manufacturing, that made it way too easy to get cash in the original, and the actual act of manufacturing and selling was tedious and boring.

[Buzzles]

That you can't sell your carapace armors once you moved on to titan armor. That you can't manufacture laser rifles just to sell them etc. - is I think what he meant!

The bolded part is something I take issue with because some people think that the original UFO:Enemy Unknown and TTFD's method of selling for profit was actually a good system.

I really do think Xenonauts' system of only being able to sell manufactured goods at a loss (ie, selling off excess kit) is a much better and more sensible system in terms of gameplay.

[Gorlom]

That you can't sell your carapace armors once you moved on to titan armor. That you can't manufacture laser rifles just to sell them etc. - is I think what he meant!

ok, I was confusd by "Xeno"... I thought he meant Xnonauts instead of EU2012

[ObLoM]

The bolded part is something I take issue with because some people think that the original UFO:Enemy Unknown and TTFD's method of selling for profit was actually a good system.

I really do think Xenonauts' system of only being able to sell manufactured goods at a loss (ie, selling off excess kit) is a much better and more sensible system in terms of gameplay.

I actually agree with you here because as soon as you allow it, it becomes an integral part of game mechanics and you HAVE to balance things around the assumption that the player is constantly manufacturing things to sell at profit. So yes, selling should be at a loss, but selling obsolete equipment as well as excess should certainly be a possibility.

[CJueroX]

I actually enjoyed some of the useless research in the original XCom - who didn't get a chuckle when they first saw the Alien Surgery research page?

[thothkins]

I actually enjoyed some of the useless research in the original XCom - who didn't get a chuckle when they first saw the Alien Surgery research page?

It wouldn't have taken a great deal to tie in a lot of the "useless" research in X-Com into the game. I think that the pressures of Beta were so great that things had to give. If they managed to get difficulty levels wrong, this is small beans by comparison.

Personally, the story described in that research and the hints it gave, were among the best parts of the game. If you take a storyline that strong and tie it a little more directly into further research/ bonuses etc, then that would be better still.

[TrashMan]

It's both. Just because it has a logical explanation doesn't mean it's a good idea. It's rubberbanding at it's worse, and it made X-Com worse for having included it. It's not even just bad game design(though it was HORRIBLY designed in UD), it's counter-design. Even Roguelike designers, the genre which generally defines brutal difficulty and arcane learning philosophies, know better than to include this kind of cheap crap in their game. I hope the developers understand that all that glitters isn't gold, and simply dismiss any mention of this feature in a positive light.

Base attacks are brilliant game design and should be in.

Your idea of not having them is counter-design.

[Max_Caine]

Unfortunately for you, Sinfullyvanillia, your hopes will be dashed. Base defence missions are part of the level design

[Sinfullyvannila]

Base attacks are brilliant game design and should be in.

Your idea of not having them is counter-design.

Please explain how punishing you for doing well is brilliant game design. This is the Blue Koopa Shell of strategy games.

People universally complain about any game that has a feature like that. And they should, it's fundamentally flawed, and it makes a game less than it can be.

Edited November 8, 2012 by Sinfullyvannila