A few suggestions

[euskai]

Hi people, this is my first post, I tried the alpha, liked it , and I have a few suggestions:

-Research: when you finish a research and get the info page, it takes you to the geoscape. It would be nice if it took you to the research screen so you can choose the next research project.

-Minimap: It would be good. Bonus points for a full screen map option, cold war style (if anyone played wargame: european scalation he´ll know what I mean, with the blurry satellite image)

-Variety in starting "human" weapons and aircraft: Having NATO style and USSR stlye to choose would be nice.

-More research options at game start, including some things you can investigate and produce before lasers and such, as the beginning seems a little empty now (didnt´get very far in the research tree). Medikits, tactical explosives, improved human weapons, armor and vehicles, even combat tactics after facing the first aliens.

-Larger fonts please!!! Some text is almost unreadable.

-Armor stats, unless I´m missing something there´s none.

-Soldier nationality and automatic nicknames for agents when they get past rookie (yep, that´s from Firaxis´ x-com, but still)

-More slots for later aircraft, like shields or advanced targeting devices (unless it´s already in, I just saw 2 fighters)

In any case the game it´s looking great, the Firaxis game was enjoyable but... it´s not a really xcom game, and I don´t have much hope in UFO 2: ET, so you are our last hope!!

[flashman]

Weapons involve 1 of each class. Multiple weapons makes it confusing. An official mod will be released to add soviet weapons to start as well if desired. Also more weapons = more sprite sheets for each weapon with every type of movement with every type of armor.. very time consuming stuff as the game doesn't use a modern 3d engine. One of Chris's acknowledged mistakes.

You quickly gain access to lasers as well so it mitigates need for more weapons.

The mig used 2 be a starter plane with the F15 - but it serves a different role and was made a research option 2 explain this. The planes are also refitted standard craft to become the basic interceptors. Multiple craft would serve a limited role since the 1st action will be to unlock a new interceptor. I think there is like 8?

Fonts and scaling is a beta issue and game currently only designed for 1 resolution.

Armor doesnt currently- i believe have stats based on direction- its just 1 single armor mitigation- wait for the new UI to see if it adds more details.

The soldier naming stuff has been discussed recently- Chris was looking at the feedback

[thothkins]

Quite a few things there I'd also have wanted to see as this has developed. I think that aircraft modules wasn't going to happen, but then someone suggested extra fuel tanks for the chinook to give longer range at the cost of capacity.

Having module options as per Apocalypse and a varity of UFO attack types to make you think even more about aerial combat would have been very nice.

As flashman said, soviet weapons will be available as a mod, and things like text and naming should be tweaked/considered as the game develops.

Starting research topics got a bit of discussion just as I was joining here. The arrival of Light Scouts has meant I'm not twiddling my thumbs after researching Alien Invasion. However, it doesn't offer the same level of decision as EU1994 which gave you Laser Tech, Medi Kit or Motion Scanner.

There is a minimap sort of button on the Battlescape UI. I assumed it was to be built in at some point later on.

[Max_Caine]

Sorry eusaki, but there won't be any enhancements to human weapons or gear. This has been debated to death, several times over. If you can think of something worth investing the resources in that helps to plump out the research tree prior to researching alien equipment that isn't human weapons or gear, I'm sure you'll get a more receptive audience.

eusaki, when you want "armour stats", do you mean you want figures? Or would you be happy with something like "ballistics = good. energy = bad. toxins = bad"?

[xcorps]

-Minimap: It would be good. Bonus points for a full screen map option, cold war style (if anyone played wargame: european scalation he´ll know what I mean, with the blurry satellite image)

I don't get the point of this. I can see a minimap in a RTS where you need quick feedback over a large map, but you have all the time in the world to look at the map. And they aren't even that big...

-Variety in starting "human" weapons and aircraft: Having NATO style and USSR stlye to choose would be nice.

I guess I'm in a minority on this. I don't care about the inclusion of multiple weapons that accomplish the same function. All you can possibly get is more pics to look at and minor changes to stats. An assault rifle is an assault rifle. Is the difference between a 450 yard effective range and a 550 yard effective range really that important? Not in the scale of this game. Does a 400 RPM cyclic difference really make one gun that much better than another? Maybe in very specific scenarios. Do you really need to worry about a pistol that's 10mm instead of .40? Not in this game, imo. In a game in the vein of JA2 I can see it, sure. That's a right wing wet dream, and an appropriate setting for Mo' guns.

[TrashMan]

Sorry eusaki, but there won't be any enhancements to human weapons or gear. This has been debated to death, several times over. If you can think of something worth investing the resources in that helps to plump out the research tree prior to researching alien equipment that isn't human weapons or gear, I'm sure you'll get a more receptive audience.

I don't see a problem with enhancing human weapons.

Once you get allien alloys, I can easily see one making "new" versions of M16 and similar guns with them.

Guns being more robust and durable means tehy can endure greater stresses (more powerfull gunpowder) and use greater calibers.

Different types of bullets would be nice to boot.

These guns would only have a slight perfomance increase, and would have to be manufactured (no infinite supply) and would use the same battlespace sprites (since they are just a better version of an existing weapon anyway).

Also, EVERY setting is appropriate for Mo' guns!

Do you really need to worry about X? Well, do you really need to worry about Y?

Lasers are gonna have longer range than regular guns - is that really that importnat?

Why not just have 1 gun for hte entire game?

Edited November 5, 2012 by TrashMan

[Max_Caine]

TrashMan, I'm sure you don't see a problem with it. However, other people have asked (on this forum and the old forum) and the answer has been no, so I'm only telling eusaki what other people have been told. The only way enhanced humans weapons are going to make it into the game is if someone mods them in (hint hint).

EDIT:

Please note though, that alien alloys are not "unlocked" for a while after they have been initally researched, and when they are, lasers are immediatly researchable. So what value does enhancing human weapons have over researching lasers?

Edited November 5, 2012 by Max_Caine

[xcorps]

I don't see a problem with enhancing human weapons.

Once you get allien alloys, I can easily see one making "new" versions of M16 and similar guns with them.

Guns being more robust and durable means tehy can endure greater stresses (more powerfull gunpowder) and use greater calibers.

Different types of bullets would be nice to boot.

These guns would only have a slight perfomance increase, and would have to be manufactured (no infinite supply) and would use the same battlespace sprites (since they are just a better version of an existing weapon anyway).

Also, EVERY setting is appropriate for Mo' guns!

Do you really need to worry about X? Well, do you really need to worry about Y?

Lasers are gonna have longer range than regular guns - is that really that importnat?

If the game had a dev team with resources of a large studio then I wouldn't care. I'd say gun it up. But it doesn't. It has a few developers with limited resources, and it's my opinion that minor gameplay adjustments based on weapon variety that require large amount of time/effort to implement are not worth the trade off. And it has to be a trade off, because something else is not going to be worked on while weapon variety is.

Modding is the answer.

Why not just have 1 gun for hte entire game?

Let's not strawman.

Edited November 5, 2012 by xcorps

[HWP]

Weapons take very little effort to add.

So what value does enhancing human weapons have over researching lasers?

Lasers should have pimpin' accuracy. Realistically it's almost impossible to miss with a properly designed laser weapon, since you aim through the same principle as you shoot. But even a powerful laser has little damage potential.

Advanced ballistics should ignore armor - that's the effect you get when pumping a lot of pressure into a moderate caliber gun.

edit: Not M16 though, something less crappy.

Edited November 5, 2012 by HWP

[Max_Caine]

I would disagree that it takes "very little effort". In terms of coding a new (researchable/manufacturable) weapon must be inserted to 7 different XML files (and 1 optional), then if there are any new art assets they have to be added, as well as new spectre files made for ground combat art assets. If Quartermaster can wrap this all up in his armoury mod, I will then agree.

The only issue I have with segregating weapons via stats is that stats can be rendered down to a mathmatical function of which weapon types are the most valuable to have. This has been done in other games (in another thread I showed how the massive armoury of Jagged Alliance 2 was broken down), so while the concept is sound, I wonder how long it would take to thoroughly analyse branching weapon types within the same tier.

[xcorps]

Advanced ballistics that could ignore armor wouldn't have chamber pressure. They'd be gauss or coil.

[HWP]

Obv using old character models, not redoing a new look for basically a similar weapon.

stats can be rendered down to a mathmatical function of which weapon types are the most valuable to have.

Heavy plasma. It's always heavy plasma.

Advanced ballistics that could ignore armor wouldn't have chamber pressure. They'd be gauss or coil.

These are the fourth tier, not alternate-second.

It takes a lot more effort to make a powerful coilgun than a powerful firearm, and even then it might not be as powerful. Rest assured that in year 21xx or something, civilian self-defense might well be provided by some beam/energy/etc tools, but the military will be still employing a number of good old propellant combustion driven weapons.

Edited November 5, 2012 by HWP

[xcorps]

But they won't be superhigh chamber pressure weapons firing intermediate caliber ammunition that can ignore armor. Chamber pressure is limited by more than the material of the chamber.

[HWP]

But they won't be superhigh chamber pressure weapons firing intermediate caliber ammunition that can ignore armor. Chamber pressure is limited by more than the material of the chamber.

There certainly will be useful high-pressure weapons long before there are useful railguns or coilguns.

Peak operating pressure in modern firearms is limited by:

* Chamber and bolt lug material strength - Xeno: alien alloys, RL: ?, MMC

* Case strength - We don't need no friggin' case

* Barrel erosion - Xeno: alien alloys, RL: ?, CMC, sabots (plastic produces less barrel erosion)

* Muzzle pressure - Suppressor (not "silencer", more like flash suppressor) or a sharper curve

* Recoil - Recoiling action like Neostead, counterweights, counterpressure, early chamber venting

Really material limitations are the most difficult factor to overcome. Most modern materials still suck at elevated temperatures or against eroding action. CFRP is useless on both counts, Ti can't take erosion, martensitic steel can't take the heat.

[TrashMan]

I would disagree that it takes "very little effort". In terms of coding a new (researchable/manufacturable) weapon must be inserted to 7 different XML files (and 1 optional), then if there are any new art assets they have to be added, as well as new spectre files made for ground combat art assets. If Quartermaster can wrap this all up in his armoury mod, I will then agree.

Since sprites are not an issue (do we REALLY need new battlefield art for them?), no it's not difficult to add them.

Then again, I wasn't saying the devs SHOULD put it in, I was commenting on hte idea of more weapon on a general level.

The only issue I have with segregating weapons via stats is that stats can be rendered down to a mathmatical function of which weapon types are the most valuable to have. This has been done in other games (in another thread I showed how the massive armoury of Jagged Alliance 2 was broken down), so while the concept is sound, I wonder how long it would take to thoroughly analyse branching weapon types within the same tier.

That's not an issue. Some guns are better in real life too. Who cares?

[euskai]

eusaki, when you want "armour stats", do you mean you want figures? Or would you be happy with something like "ballistics = good. energy = bad. toxins = bad"?

The more the better, but I guess a numeric value for each damage type would be enough

Since sprites are not an issue (do we REALLY need new battlefield art for them?), no it's not difficult to add them.

That.

Just give me a different image and some stats and I´ll be happy. It´s all about inmersion, and having equipment of the different funding nations gives you that.

[GoodGuyEddy]

Once you get allien alloys, I can easily see one making "new" versions of M16 and similar guns with them.

VAI? The laser/plasma are better anyway. Lasers have greater accuracy, and plasma will be more powerful.

Guns being more robust and durable means tehy can endure greater stresses (more powerfull gunpowder) and use greater calibers.

Nope. I'm not sure if you are aware of this but there is a little thing called recoil. There's no point in having a 574638 cal machine gun if the recoil will be too much of a bother. And the "upgrades" will provide very incremental improvements.

The first things you discover from the aliens is that they have super conductors and very powerful power supplies.

Spoiler: That's exactly what is stopping the military from having railguns.

And since lasers are the first to utilize the conducters and power of alien tech i.e. xenonauts can make things with them now, there's is no reason on not being able to develop railguns.

And normal fire arms are entirely obsolete. There is just no use of wasting dev time on those.

[GoodGuyEddy]

Just give me a different image and some stats and I´ll be happy. It´s all about inmersion, and having equipment of the different funding nations gives you that.

There will be an official mod to have USSR skins, well the alternative pictures are in the game folder, so i thing the devs will put them in game during the polishing phase.

[Max_Caine]

TrashMan, in response to your post, the reason I raise it as an issue is that if there are two branching research paths for a weapon type in one tier, if it can be mathmatically proven than one weapon type is "better" (for a given value of better), then there wasn't any point in making the other type researchable then, was there? Taking HWP's example, analysis of the two weapon types would hopefully result in something like: arm troops with the laser carbine, the laser rifle, the alien alloy LMG, the alien alloy precision rifle. It is more likely that analysis would show something more like: take just alien alloy ballistics, because troops can learn to be accurate. And pessimistically (sp.), the end analysis might be: arm all troops with the alien alloy precision rifle. The concept is sound, it's just getting the execution right. In my opinion, I believe it to be difficult to make weapon types sufficently different to each other through stat manipulation. But please feel free to prove me wrong. (Seriously. I would like to see some good examples.)

eusaki, there are quite a few different damage types, and armour has a "damage absorbtion" factor verses the 4 major types.

It is possible right now to mod in alien alloy ballistics. I have tomorrow off - I may spend the day doing just that, to put this discussion to rest.

[HWP]

Max_Caine: I did pretty much what I described in my modded version of XCOM EU, and currently my optimal squad loadout, based on mission experience and calculations is as follows:

S7, Light plasma rifle

A8, Plasma rifle

H6, Heavy laser

Sn6, Laser SR

A5, Light plasma rifle

S5, Laser rifle

I don't have heavy plasma and sniper plasma researched in that playthrough yet, not enough resources. Difficulty level Impossible, quasi-Ironman, Second Wave, all working SW options on.

Edited November 5, 2012 by HWP

[TrashMan]

TrashMan, in response to your post, the reason I raise it as an issue is that if there are two branching research paths for a weapon type in one tier, if it can be mathmatically proven than one weapon type is "better" (for a given value of better), then there wasn't any point in making the other type researchable then, was there?

For a given value of better.

But WHAT makes it better? For you it may be damage. For me it may be RoF. Maybe ease of mantainance might be for someone else.

Also, mathematics are pointless for gauging things like aesthetics. I just like rifle X more.

I don't care if rifle Y has a 5% bigger damage. It isn't nearly neough for me ot even consider taking it.

[Gorlom]

So who here wants their gun porn in the official unmodded release and who is happy as long as it is in mods (be them official or unofficial)?

Edited November 5, 2012 by Gorlom

[euskai]

eusaki, there are quite a few different damage types, and armour has a "damage absorbtion" factor verses the 4 major types.

Great, hopefully future versions will show the stats of each armor against each damage type.

[xcorps]

So who here wants their gun porn in the official unmodded release and who is happy as long as it is in mods (be them official or unofficial)?

I'd be happy if the current nonalien guns we have now are the same as release (I'm sure the stats will probably be tweaked). I'd be ecstatic if there was a post release mod that ramped up the number of guns.

[thothkins]

Happy that the key weapon roles have been defined and await a bit of balance. I'd be happy if the Devs focused elsewhere.

Although I'd still hope that the Flamenwerfer is still going in?

Now, all we need is Sentry guns and Nerve Gas cannisters and we're almost there...