Ground combat too easy

[zzz1010]

You can't call it increasing because no any alien stats exist. Maybe it's decreasing for easy difficulty.

There nothing outrageous in their stats (outrageous is to get blaster bomb into skyranger) - your soldiers can have same or even better, or in their count, And you have same weapon and better armor. Easy way is to talk how things must be done, but if you can't make them much smarter then human - it's only way to make it challenging.

And not need(it's little diffirent then he try to describe, that's what these numbers ) to call it impossible (and on some point if you have lot of psi it's can become mockery) because lot of people beat it on total iron man, and even TFTD which have more difficult enemies.

Aliens usualy die after couple of plasma hits and our solders usualy die after couple of plasma hits. It's deadly game.

This is not competition, just choose difficulty where you can take fun, if you think this is too tough for you.

30% to be oneshot?

In best armor - yes. In jumpsuit it will be somthing like 90-95

I played God level so I understand it can be imposible to win without constant reloading game,

Just find at youtube one of numerous ufo enemy unknown ironman runs

Aliens standing around ship and when You go out You are dead.

This why you need a smoke

This is sad GOD level.

What game we there talking about?

Edited November 25, 2012 by zzz1010

[Xcom Veteran]

It's not precise to be honest, if we bring some numbers it will be around 75-80% accuracy (for mutons and snakeman havyplasma aimed shot, eterials are better shooters but other is worse). And front shot in flying suit from havyplasma have less then 30% to be oneshot

75-80% accuracy and 30% to be oneshot? Tell it to my soldiers. Single soldier wasn't wouned last game. Just move, move, and die. So what I can do to play? Destroy whole map with rockets even when not see enemies, PSI spam or what?

I played God level so I understand it can be imposible to win without constant reloading game, but so perfect aliens don't have sense. Aliens should hide, ambush, rush, defend, sth like this. In oryginal UFO in Terror missions Aliens standing around ship and when You go out You are dead. This is sad GOD level.

I think the point isn't the exact numbers but that using increased accuracy, hitpoints, and number of enemies as the methods of increasing difficulty is not the most fun way of doing it.

If the enemy is smarter then you have a more interesting challenge.

Buffed hitpoints, damage, enemy numbers, or accuracy is just the easy way to do it so it gets used a lot.

100% right.

[Gauddlike]

I am not sure what to make of your suggestion that damage increases are not an increase simply because the aliens don't have stats.

I am not really sure where your information about enemies not having stats comes from either.

If I use Xenonauts as an example of what I believe actually DO qualify as increases the current difficulty modifiers are:

<ufoHealthEasy value="0.8" />

<ufoHealthNormal value="1.0" />

<ufoHealthVeteran value="1.2" />

<ufoHealthSuperhuman value="1.5" />

<alienAttributeEasy value="0.9" />

<alienAttributeNormal value="1.0" />

<alienAttributeVeteran value="1.1" />

<alienAttributeSuperhuman value="1.25" />

<alienWeaponDamageEasy value="0.9" />

<alienWeaponDamageNormal value="1.0" />

<alienWeaponDamageVeteran value="1.1" />

<alienWeaponDamageSuperhuman value="1.25" />

Just to show a random Xenonauts enemy that does appear to have stats:

<AI race="Caesan">

<Rank type="NonCombatant">

<Props APs="50" Resilience="30" Strength="30" Accuracy="40" Reflexes="40" Bravery="50"

PsionicPower="" Recklessness="1" Tactical="1" Grenade="" Situational="1" PreferredRange="Long"

CrouchDisabled="0" />

<Armour kinetic="10" energy="10" chemical="10" incendiary="10" />

Also from the original x-com if you were referring to that:

Alien Stats

Several key alien stats will increase with each difficulty level. The alien stats which change are:

[TABLE=class: sortable]

[TR=bgcolor: #C0C0C0]

[TH=align: left]Stat[/TH]

[TH]Beginner[/TH]

[TH]Experienced[/TH]

[TH=width: 100]Veteran[/TH]

[TH=width: 90]Genius[/TH]

[TH=width: 120]Superhuman[/TH]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=align: left]Strength[/TD]

[TD]100%[/TD]

[TD]102%[/TD]

[TD]104%[/TD]

[TD]106%[/TD]

[TD]108%[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=align: left]TUs, Energy, Psi Strength, Psi Skill[/TD]

[TD]100%[/TD]

[TD]104%[/TD]

[TD]108%[/TD]

[TD]112%[/TD]

[TD]116%[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=align: left]Reactions[/TD]

[TD]100%[/TD]

[TD]106%[/TD]

[TD]112%[/TD]

[TD]118%[/TD]

[TD]124%[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=align: left]Firing Accuracy[/TD]

[TD]50%[/TD]

[TD]106%[/TD]

[TD]112%[/TD]

[TD]118%[/TD]

[TD]124%[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=align: left]Armor[/TD]

[TD]50%[/TD]

[TD]100%[/TD]

[TD]100%[/TD]

[TD]100%[/TD]

[TD]100%[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

I think you are getting too caught up on the specifics of the example used and not following the discussion.

There are other ways to increase the difficulty of a game besides adding 10% damage and 20% hitpoints to an enemy.

Despite what you seem to feel the AI can be used to make a game easier or harder, either instead of or alongside this type of system.

It may not have been done this way in the original games but that doesn't mean it can't be done here.

Your assertion that the only way the AI in a game can be challenging is to make it smarter than a human is also a little bit strange.

The AI may work alone at lower difficulties and co-ordinate attacks in large groups at higher difficulties.

That would be one, potentially simple, AI change that may make the AI harder to beat without needing a 24% accuracy boost.

Of course an accuracy boost can also be used to enable easier balancing once the AI behaviour has been finalised.

Edited November 25, 2012 by Gauddlike

[zzz1010]

I am not really sure where your information about enemies not having stats comes from either.

You misunderstood me, and there was need smile at the and to not force you to find all these. Sorry about this. Of course technicaly difficulty is multiplier, I meant there no sectoid in reality to say "in game his acuracy increased", what it should be to not to be "increased" - same as your solders, less then your soldiers? Maybe on high difficulty this is his actual stats? Do you undestand? Anyway, don't take it seriously.

Your assertion that the only way the AI in a game can be challenging is to make it smarter than a human is also a little bit strange.

The AI may work alone at lower difficulties and co-ordinate attacks in large groups at higher difficulties.

That would be one, potentially simple, AI change that may make the AI harder to beat without needing a 24% accuracy boost.

My assertion was - if you can't make it smart(individual or group behavior is no matter) enough to make it challenging - only way is boost before it become challenging.

I never mean xenos must use boost because of this too, but to make it challenging just by behavior its less easy then just say it must be done like this. Only to wish is not enough - there also technical restrictions, ability to make it and other strange words. It's just sound for me like you call them lazy, but many things in old one are more complicated then in any new ones

"Smarter then human" it's just, how to say it, metaphorical meaning.

I don't think that group behaviour can be removed from the equation though.

I don't remove it - I take it as complex impling you make your best for both. I'm not intrested at all what parts you will disable to make it more easy, only how much it can be challenging and there this complex must work at max(is you can make good individual or group or both it's just what you can make with AI, i'm not teach how to make AI smart here), this is why I considering it as just whole.

I don't think either method should be used in isolation.

At first it must be behaviour(as you all agree - smarter is usualy more intresting then tough ), but if you make all what you can and it's still not enough to be hard as much as you want it to be(for hardest difficulty for example) only way is begin increasing enemies and their stats before in become like this(or make them to cheat).

And no matter how smart you make it there always will be people for which it will be still not enough, if leave it as is it will be just easy - for them all this multipled stats impossible superhumans.

And there always will be some people for which it will be too hard but no one is want to play with even more dumbdown enemy - for them all this decreased stats. And there we return to begining

Edited November 25, 2012 by zzz1010

[Gauddlike]

The stat quotes were mainly for reference for others reading the discussion.

We have both been deep enough into the game files to have found all of that information

I don't think that group behaviour can be removed from the equation though.

The AI would be considered less smart if it didn't support a friendly soldier who was nearby or co-ordinate their attacks than an AI that did these things.

I don't think either method should be used in isolation.

Both working together would be better.

[Max_Caine]

zzz, have you heard of the term "confirmation bias"?

You have determined in your post that there are only two ways to make the game more challenging.

1) A smart AI

2) Aliens who are more deadly.

You then posit that if the AI cannot be made to be smart, then the only way to make the game more challenging is to make aliens more deadly. By presenting a binary choice, where there is an obvious weak argument (ai is smart) and an obvious strong argument (make aliens more deadly), you have made it seem like the strong argument is the only argument.

The question of challenge is linked to depth (there's an excellent Extra Credits video on easy games which discusses depth). We should ask what options does an early alien have - what challenges does an early-game caesian present to a human player?

Well, they are armed with a gun and they can

• Shoot civilians
  
• Shoot friendly soldiers
  
• Shoot Xenonauts

Not very varied, is it? But wait! What about an early-game Sebillian? As well as the above they can:

• Regenerate

Which means a hurt Sebillian can run away around a corner and like a first-person shooter, hide until his health bar goes back to the maximum.

Depth can be added as you suggested by increasing the size of the crew. However, it is important to understand exactly what depth is added. If it's just

• Moar guns

Then that's a poor addition, because the challenge is not coming from smart application of strategy, it's coming from warm bodies, and if I want to kill mindless warm bodies I have Left 4 Dead on my computer. If the challenge comes intead from:

• Flanking tactics

Then that is a good addition to depth, because it forces the player to consider the game more tactically.

Another way of increasing depth without making aliens more deadly is to give them the same non-leathal grenades that Xenonauts have at the start of the game. You played Apocalypse, right? Well, the Skeletoids mid-game were equipped with smoke grenades and they wouldn't hesitate to use them to hide themselves, so why not let aliens do that as well? Give aliens flashbangs and if they face a group of Xenonauts they can't klil, then they can suppress them instead! All the tools are there to do it, and that adds:

• Block incoming fire
  
• Suppress enemy

To the list of things that an alien can do.

There are lot of people who ask for proximity grenades. Well, why not give aliens proximity grenades? Again, going back to Apocalypse, the aliens had Boomeroids that when activated would move towards your troops and blow up when they got in range. This gives a wide range of things aliens can do:

• Booby-trap doors
  
• Delay pursuing enemies (which ties into the Regenerate ability of the Sebillian)
  
• Deny lines of advance

Now, yes the AI must be able to do these things. If we assume a not-smart AI, then these things could be hard-coded conditions. The ai in Apocalypse felt like that - Skeletoid sees me, fires shots, throws smoke grenade, hides in smoke. Or, Anthropod sees me, fires shots from disintegrator cannon, switches on cloaking field. Or, Anthropoid sees group, throws all boomeroids at group. Predictable, but it doesn't take away the depth from the game.

[zzz1010]

Which means a hurt Sebillian can run away around a corner and like a first-person shooter, hide until his health bar goes back to the maximum.

But he can't because i'm round him before open fire. This defensive guys allready try to allways run away and if you don't do this you will chase them long. And how fast he regenerate 10% per turn, 100%? And if he just sit here it's opportunity for guys with shotguns to move closer.

Don't forget - it's not two soldiers versus two aliens - there 12 soldiers, and they never all at same place, and very rare two is back to back. And he don't know where is all they are - he usualy see 2 or 3, all other is somewhere around. An I have much more eyes and can make much more shoots in one turn.

And this is a small alien with a pistol or little rifle, we can't to greatly boost him(because he weakest of aliens)

What he can flank? How many he can supress, how many flashes he have, 10? Because i can to throw 10 at him. The only thing what I afraid is if he begin to drop self guided mines everywhere, can I kill it, this mines, how many he have? Never play Apocalypse to much, has dozen of tries, but no

Six aliens may be can to do some trick together.

It's all was, how to say, "from one side" . Like i think we need to make games as hard as possible. And like best way to do this is multipling stats. Maybe this is exactly what i say, but I disagree with this.

Edited November 26, 2012 by zzz1010

[thothkins]

On Night time, I rather liked Gauddlike's idea of

"That could still depend on the race, for example Androns may not be affected by the night time and Reapers may be nocturnal hunters who are less aggressive during the day (they mostly come at night... mostly) while the Sebillians are much more sluggish at night. "

Thinking of EU1994

You got fewer points for crashing a UFO than destroying it. That's due to the point you should get for a retrieval mission.

So, points wise, it's best to go in after the ship. Points equate to funding.

You should always be challenged for research and resources. Both excellent reasons for going on a mission.

But, all these can be done during the day.

However, if a terror site appeared at night, it would be gone by dawn, so you had to go in.

Likewise, teh UFOs would not last forever. If your base was near you could simply hover and wait for dawn. For further away ones, you'd have to go in sometimes. That's what I'd like to see here.

Additionally, I always wonder what the aliens are doing down there, while the Skyranger hovers above. I'd ahve thought there would be a lower score for completing the mission, the longer it took you to get down there. It reflects the aliens killing/terrorising/infiltrating the locals.

I'd also like to see the aliens making use of smoke/stun/mined devices. It's only fair in balance and they do have alien grenades at present. Smoke added interest & depth when up against Skeletoids. Stun grenades could be an option for them to further study/ interrogate their Xenonaut foes. It could also lead to further tech advances in grenades. Alas, no Throwing Accuracy stat to make chucking the things more of a speciality.

[Mordobb]

On the matter of making the game harder...

There s an easy way:

Kind of aliens + brand of aliens.

Let say a easy game would have much more "civilian" aliens trough the game.

insane game would have more "Spec Force" aliens. And this will influence group tactics (if AI is able to emulate such on a good way) and alien stats (trained for war or not).

It could also influence cowardice and etc.

Ai is always hard to properly do.

[Max_Caine]

zzz, I've been thinking on your challenge. It's difficult, but I think I've found a way. I need to finish the explanatory pictures, though. Mordobb is right - there are up to 8 different classes of alien per race of alien, so an easy way to make it more challenging is to step up the classes, rather than boost the underlying stats.

[endervoid]

double post

[endervoid]

...

Well, they are armed with a gun and they can

• Shoot civilians

• Shoot friendly soldiers

• Shoot Xenonauts

Not very varied, is it? But wait! What about an early-game Sebillian? As well as the above they can:

• Regenerate

...

• Moar guns

...

• Flanking tactics

...

• Block incoming fire

• Suppress enemy

...

• Booby-trap doors

• Delay pursuing enemies (which ties into the Regenerate ability of the Sebillian)

• Deny lines of advance

...

Most of the stuff you suggest for the ai is for example in JA2 1.3. Still it's very dumb and even fighting 20v6 it loses very hard.

In my opinion with enough effort (maybe 2 years don't know) you could make an ai that is competent in small skirmishes for a fixed set of rules (when everything else on the battlefield is static).

But the biggest problems of AI is in situation awareness (pattern recognition, prediction of hidden movement), prediction and adaption. These points are so easy for a human you don't even think about it. For example to make a concept of flanking, the ai needs to know where the front and flank is first. Then it needs to know if the human will predict that movement and wait for the ai to flank him. And so on.

Look at computer vision (one of the biggest research fields that shares a big amount of conecepts with ai), even if that research field goes back to 1960, the results we get today are very little. Task a small child can perform a not even solved. Just to recognize a leaf of a tree is very hard.

So even if you get a AI that is very good at the concepts you wrote (i.e. decision making), the two biggest problems will still remain, perception and prediction.

ATM the only way a non cheating ai can compete against a human is by having a higher depth in his prediction tree. But thats not possible in a game with that complex rules like xenonauts. So in the end it will be all about "Moar guns" at higher difficulties.

And i watched the link about "depth" you posted. So in short depth means complex game mechanics and many possibilities of different decisions. In a tactical/strategic game that means a weak ai and therefore to be challenging after you master the mechanics it means "moar guns" too.

Edited November 27, 2012 by endervoid

[zzz1010]

there are up to 8 different classes of alien per race of alien, so an easy way to make it more challenging is to step up the classes, rather than boost the underlying stats.

It will be still boost stats of firsts, but also changing their color. And there will be 7 classes for now, If I understand you right.

I don't want to call it challendge or hardnes, but even first aliens must be some threat.

And little more dirty biased tricks:

Moar guns it's not just difficulty but also more complex and different situations(just because more "agents of chaos").

And You can't play by one pawn versus 2 rooks, no matter how intelligent you are, and even If we change you pawn to rook(boost)it is not help(I hope its true, I know barely nothing about chess). It's not just about moar guns but about amount of possibilities

12 human soldiers can be easily spit to 3 group of 4 soldiers. We got 3 group versus 3 unit. Every such group will have much more flexibility(4 soldiers can round("surround" is more correct?) one alien but one alien can't round 4 soldiers) and fire power(8 possible shots rather then 2 as example) then every single alien,

As base for decisions about AI, I take AI as MyI(I am not genus, maybe it can be better) there still not too much possibilities for this 3 aliens(if take them as they are in game, from pure tactics point) versus 12 human controlled soldiers, this why I talk like "I don't see how"

If there's just one alien, then it could be a high-class alien for it's racial type.

Now I understand. predator concept

Edited November 27, 2012 by zzz1010

[Max_Caine]

Well, not necessarily a boost of stats. If there's just one alien, then it could be a high-class alien for it's racial type. If there are more aliens then they don't need to be high-class - they can be a lower class as there are more of them (the number of aliens making up for the drop in class). If there's a full crew (5 for a Scout, I think) then you can have several of the lowest class, and a few higher classes to present a mix in abilities and capability.

[Xcom Veteran]

On harder levels I can accept longer Alien turn.

Maybe we can implement genetic algorithm for Aliens to count what kind of movements gave them best results. The AI will be smarter with each game.

AI will remember missions:

1) type of mission, ship size, number of Aliens, type of aliens, type od weapons, type of map, and will use some random strategy (hide, rush, defend), and score for them

2) next game will do the same...

3) and after 5-10 times AI will check before mission what the best score was for similar mission type, and try to use two mixed best strategy. Aliens will don't know what flanking is - AI will just send soldiers around map when in erlier mission had good score in this strategy with this player.

Thing that are hard for You, next time will be even harder, because AI will atack the weakest point in your tactice.

[Max_Caine]

endervoid, Xcom Veteran, when it comes to discussing the "smartness" of the AI and its capability verses a human, I defer to GJ (the AI developer)'s thread on Xenonauts AI. There's a pretty good description and discussion of what he wants to do with the A.I.

What I will say is that the range of options that I suggested doesn't depend upon a smart ai. It's possible to have the behaviour "hard-coded" in a Finite State Machine. Take "block incoming fire" for example. An alien could be in the state of "sees several Xenonauts, has a gun, does not have enough AP to shoot and kill all the Xenonauts, has a smoke grenade, cannot move to cover facing Xenonauts, is on it's own". The transition action would be "throw a smoke grenade in-between alien and Xenonauts" to the state of "cannot see any Xenonauts, has a gun, is on it's own". 2Block incoming fire" has been achieved, using a smoke grenade. This isn't smartness as GJ is working to achieve, it's predictable, but it does expand the range of options for an alien.

[Gauddlike]

I think increasing the difficulty could also be done by mixing alien types.

If the player is up against a group of Ceasans armed with plasma rifles they know what to expect.

If those Ceasans are backed up by a couple of heavy weapon armed Androns and have a couple of fast moving Reapers on the flank with a psi specialist at the rear then the challenge is increased, even if the total numbers remain the same.

The individual aliens are no tougher but as a group they need much more varied tactics and reactions to take down.

[zzz1010]

If the player is up against a group of Ceasans armed with plasma rifles they know what to expect.

If those Ceasans are backed up by a couple of heavy weapon armed Androns and have a couple of fast moving Reapers on the flank with a psi specialist at the rear then the challenge is increased, even if the total numbers remain the same.

Amount is not the same because you have "group+5" it's more then early 2 - 5:). If you just place 4 caesans and 4 drones and give them bit of mind It's already will be much harder.

Well, we can consider it as not issue but part of tutorial, early battles where a player is study tactical system and can't to lose. Someone just have habit to be hardraped by aliens in first contacts and think there something wrong.

Edited November 27, 2012 by zzz1010

[Gauddlike]

I am not talking about increasing the difficulty of only the initial fights where you may be up against a small scout crew but of the game as a whole.

I also suggested that varied abilities would increase the difficulty over an equal number of (almost) identical enemies.

I don't know how you can say the numbers don't match up in that (very loose) example when I specifically stated the total numbers to be the same.

For the scout fights you are worrying about I would simply add scout drones as an addition to the live crew.

I am not overly concerned with the starting fights though, they take up a small proportion of the battles in the game and are easily adjusted.

[Xcom Veteran]

I played oryginal X-COM on god level again. Loaded game once (to prevent night mission because is very hard) and second time when soldier blowed team because he is blind!

Result is:

Month 1

1) 0 loses

2) -1 soldier,

3) -1 soldier (Terror),

Month 2

4) no way to win or even go outside of the ship (Terror Sectoids + strong Cyberdiscs),

Tank died by one shoot, soldiers too, and psi control spam.

But smoke grenades & proximity grenades helped me a lot in first 3 missions to avoid loses. I also blowed many maps with rockets .

I hate:

- super good acuracy,

- one shoot die,

- psi spam (aplied to soldiers that shouldn't be even spot by aliens),

- night missions are imposible because aliens see more then me (shooting from far places which I can't see),

- no UFOs in radar = no points and materials.

I will be just happy to avoid this bad things but still have hard game (first 3 missions was realy great, long tactice games with tank & soldiers cooperation). Fourth was end in few turns.

Good that in Xenonauts we will have ship with 3 way entry. In old UFO there is only one, and sometimes you just can't go out even after throwing smoke grenade.