Gorlom Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 (edited) How does this affect balance? The aliens will have the same advantage/disadvantage. Even if that were not true, if the soldiers were winning all the time it would be a simple matter to make the aliens tougher, better, or more numerous. If something looks stupid and unrealistic there is no reason not to change it if it's possible. It should be done now before the balancing begins in beta.I have no problem with the aliens drilling my troops at point blank range if I'm dumb enough to run up to them without killing them. Likewise, if I can get a guy right up to an alien without him being killed I'd expect to put a bullet or five right between it's antennae, eyes, etc... What's the problem with that? http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php/3454-Tighten-up-fire-accuracy?p=45195&viewfull=1#post45195 http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php/3454-Tighten-up-fire-accuracy?p=45048&viewfull=1#post45048 http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php/3591-Headshots-anyone?p=45036&viewfull=1#post45036 Edited November 8, 2012 by Gorlom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcorps Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 (on the side I'm also arguing that getting a sure hit at that range isn't realistic) Perhaps not. (let's assume that the level of training for xeno soldiers is at a minimum the equivalent of either USMC infantry or US Army light infantry and that we are talking about a zero experiance soldier..a new soldier to the xenonaut team) Let's also assume 1-3 tile range. Anyone know how much distance a tile represents? If you have a soldier with a rifle who is not moving, has already fired an aimed shot at the target, the target has not moved, and the soldier is not wounded then I would say that the likelihood of a miss is less than 1, either snap or aimed. Same soldier who expended all of his movement points last turn firing a snap snot at an alien who also moved his max amount last turn would have a much higher miss chance. Assuming no wounds and no cover, I'd say somewhere in the 50-60% range. The same soldier firing an aimed shot at that range should have a drastically lower chance to miss, less than 20%. Same soldier who is moving at a "walk" (saving TU's for interrupts) who turns a corner and *surprise* alien at 1 square, facing away with no interrupt...That should be a very low chance to miss, I'd posit less than 10%. A soldier moving at that rate in a combat environment would have to be assumed to be in an alert and ready state, weapon pointed along the sightliine, safety off, finger on trigger. A "snap" shot from that pose would be different than a snap shot from a full run. The game can't really model this, so you have to either have a very high chance to hit on a snap shot in this circumstance which might break the accuracy model in other circumstances, or you have to assume that the "aimed" shot can't really miss, because the aimed shot models taking careful aim at a target. Even though hitting the target in this situation doesn't really call for carefull aim, you still have to expend the TU's at this point to get the "realistic" hit chance. So the issue at very short range combat isn't really a matter of accuracy or chance to hit imo, it's a matter of TU's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 The problem isn't really whether they miss or hit, the problem is when they do miss you have shots going WILDLY off course. Missing by inches or even a couple yards I don't have a problem with, I have a problem with the misses literally going nearly sideways sometimes. I've seen real life close range gun fights where entire magazines were emptied at less than 20 feet and neither party was hit, like gunfights around a vehicle or other hard cover. It happens to police every once in a while, but their misses aren't going off at 45+ degree angles, they're passing within inches or a yard from the target. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcorps Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 I concur. The bullet doesn't stray from where the barrel of the rifle is pointed.. Those wild misses have to assume that the soldier shot without pointing the weapon at the target. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Or that they shot without looking at the target in some cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Or that they shot without looking at the target in some cases.Possibly. But even with eyes closed it seems you would get less spread. Besides, "YOU" decide when and what to fire at in Xenonauts, I'm assuming most people therefore have an identified target. If it's reaction fire then the soldier saw a target, so I don't think there is really any true blind fire in this game. Even area fire requires the player to designate a target tile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 (edited) Possibly. But even with eyes closed it seems you would get less spread. Besides, "YOU" decide when and what to fire at in Xenonauts, I'm assuming most people therefore have an identified target. If it's reaction fire then the soldier saw a target, so I don't think there is really any true blind fire in this game. Even area fire requires the player to designate a target tile. Everyone in this game is blind. especially the pilots! the only one that gets to see anything s the commander in the sky (ie you the player). Everyone is just REALLY lucky that they can hit anything at all in this game. (or you as the commander is really good at giving directions ) Reaction shots are basd on hearing and their accuracy stat is really how good they are at following directions. Edited November 9, 2012 by Gorlom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Everyone in this game is blind. especially the pilots! the only one that gets to see anything s the commander in the sky (ie you the player). Everyone is just REALLY lucky that they can hit anything at all in this game. (or you as the commander is really good at giving directions )Reaction shots are basd on hearing and their accuracy stat is really how good they are at following directions. Generally, I'm less worried about hitting enemies than I am about killing my own guys... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Generally, I'm less worried about hitting enemies than I am about killing my own guys... Obviously the friendlies are making noise and distracting your soldiers. So they shoot at the noise despite your instructions because they think that it might be a hostile... despite how many times you tell them tht it isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcorps Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Yeah. Mike: Hey Joe, I'm on your right, don't shoot me! Joe: Oh my God, there's an alien impersonating Mike! BLAM! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirAstral Posted November 9, 2012 Author Share Posted November 9, 2012 The problem isn't really whether they miss or hit, the problem is when they do miss you have shots going WILDLY off course. Missing by inches or even a couple yards I don't have a problem with, I have a problem with the misses literally going nearly sideways sometimes. I've seen real life close range gun fights where entire magazines were emptied at less than 20 feet and neither party was hit, like gunfights around a vehicle or other hard cover. It happens to police every once in a while, but their misses aren't going off at 45+ degree angles, they're passing within inches or a yard from the target. This is exactly what I am talking about! I can deal with missing the enemy, I am just not okay with my friendlies taking damage or dying in obscene situations because of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirAstral Posted November 9, 2012 Author Share Posted November 9, 2012 Yeah.Mike: Hey Joe, I'm on your right, don't shoot me! Joe: Oh my God, there's an alien impersonating Mike! BLAM! Actually this has happened a lot for me. I have a character that will stupidly shoot through one of my guys that is obviously in the line of fire to snap shot an alien. That is pretty darn annoying. I have also had situations where an alien will walk in front of 4 units all with saved shots stop end turn and no one on my side takes a shot. Talk about wasted TU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcorps Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 (edited) I was just trying to test a level and played through a random map. Second round, I kill both my shotgunners and seriously wound a rifleman with friendly fire. All of it *normal*, no snapshots. Third round my sniper tossed a grenade. It left his hand, went straight up in the air, paused for 9.23 seconds, scanned the battlefield and made a beeline for a pair of groundhogs arguing about the equinox. A slightly tattered raven on it's way to fetch some string caught the grenade in it's beak and dropped it in the pocket of the soldier who was 1 square to the left and 1 square forward of the sniper. True story. (or at least as plausible as the number of bad throws we face) Edited November 10, 2012 by xcorps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endervoid Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 (edited) The best system i have seen so far was that of JA 2 1.13. The difference of that system basically is: -In XCom (and Xenonauts as it seems) the to hit probability is calculated first, after that a deviation of the bullet/beam is made more or less randomly, which can look very weird. -In JA 1.13 it's the other way around, the deviation of the bullet is calculated first(based on shooters ability to counter recoil and minimize muzzle sway + gun accuracy, which depends only on the gun and ammunition). So the bullets will never fly away in 45° degrees from the shooter. After that the to hit probability depends only on the distance to the target. So even as a bad shooter with a lot of muzzle sway you will most likely hit a target next to you, and when you miss, then only by a very small amount. And it doesn't make auto-/ or burstfire fly randomly around the target. Looks much more "realistic" then in every other tactical game i know. Edited November 19, 2012 by endervoid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonfire Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 I think they fixed the accuracy problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thothkins Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 "472439712% When you're absolutely, positively certain that you can't miss and that your maths sucks." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 He didn't show the next screenshot where the bullet veered off and hit a friendly stood behind the shooter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonfire Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 I was actually expecting exactly that to happen and I wasn't sure afterwards when it didn't if I was relieved or disappointed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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