New mission type ideas

[zakalwe]

How would the Xenonuts be aware of the need to defuse and more importantly how to defuse it?

while realism, verisimilitude and immersion isn't that important for me there are others on this forum that think it is super important

In response to the point above and the discussion of a timebomb mechanic. I thought this was a good point.

There is something ridiculous about flying in from 10,000 miles away for a ticking time bomb defuse mission and then having 3 minutes to defuse it.

Seems there was absolutely no way for you to arrive 3 minutes earlier, and you weren't afraid at all of arriving 3 minutes later just in time for the bomb to blow you up. Got to be movie magick.

I have read the discussions on the idea of a self-destruct mechanic which is really the same kind of idea and had a couple of thoughts. I really like the potential for missions to 'go Iceland' in some way. I think in many ways the self destruct idea is maybe better than limiting it to scout craft that you overkilled.

Thinking about what happens to shot down craft at the moment. You have to intercept the crash site, and if you don't it disappears after a while, presumably incurring some kind of nation penalty in the background.

What about introducing a timer for crash sites that starts when you shoot something down. resolves in either an explosion, severity depending on the craft, or rescue/recovery by alien forces (a slightly less bad outcome which at least gives a narrative explanation to the nation penalty)

Overkill becomes more important, as damaged craft will give less time for the player to intercept them. Heavily damaged craft become ticking Icelands, if a power cores is damaged, it must be 'diffused' in a set time or they will go critical. You don't necessarily arrive 'just in time' to diffuse it, (unless you actually do) but if you don't deal with it no one else will and it will blow, giving you the more severe penalty to nation score.

How do your troops possess the ability to diffuse an alien power core or self destruct device, surely if you can research alien technology it and use it to fabricate new weapons, (which is also movie magic) you could diffuse a broken one. There is a recovery mechanic for alien bodies, but none for alien craft. I find the overkill mechanic kind of annoying at the moment, but if it was a question of collecting intact alien craft for research and repair (for use for late/final game?, Orbital Interception?) that would be awesome.

I do really like the idea of a self destruct mechanic though and would be happy to settle for that. The last ai or 2 should try to make a break for the red button. It seems it would solve tedium of hunting down any stragglers in repeated similar missions.

Given that the game is structured around escalating difficulty in the 3 layers of the geoscape, ground and air. This time sensitive pressure could create a dynamic that adds strategic depth through the three layers.

For the early game:

Iceland showed that Aliens have the power to self destruct their craft with devasting results. However, a scout craft could be, for game purposes, way less devasting than TBA advanced craft. At the moment the first week or two of the game is spent shooting down nerfed speed scouts. How about a mission somewhere in that period where aliens are guaranteed to activate a self destruct to introduce the mechanic. There is a small explosion, then you must research the self destruct sequence/land an intact alien craft or even unlock through interrogation?

For midgame/late:

As alien threat escalates, self-destructs become more severe, damaged cores could appear like as terror events. Local forces down UFO with nuke/Airliner Collision etc. I think that a time sensitive mission type would add diversity, and be an easier addition/mod if any kind of self-destruct mechanic was added.

Anyway. Out on all kinds of limbs here. Cheers all for feedback. Really liked:

Hold off attack on power station/ reactor/ hospital etc

A few of things on Thothkins list are in right? Alien Bases are for sure I thought? Actually is there a current list of confirmed features for beta?

[ooey]

Maybe the timer wasn't started until you landed and the aliens became aware of your presence?

It wouldn't make sense for a self destruct to begin until there was danger present after all.

Until you arrive they were still concentrating on repairs and escape rather than last stands and self destruct.

As you can see, there is usually nearly always a way around things if you want realism! Is realism important to me? Not really - if the world was in imminent danger of Alien invasion I would think governments would devote a lot more resources to stopping it than a small force called Xenonauts. Ya's gotta be given a licence to be a bit creative!

[Gorlom]

Thinking about what happens to shot down craft at the moment. You have to intercept the crash site, and if you don't it disappears after a while, presumably incurring some kind of nation penalty in the background.

Are you suggesting there should be or assuming there is? Chris has stated that leaving a crash site to disappear on it's own will not result in any penalty other than the missed loot. I don't think it is likely to change.

Overkill becomes more important, as damaged craft will give less time for the player to intercept them. Heavily damaged craft become ticking Icelands, if a power cores is damaged, it must be 'diffused' in a set time or they will go critical. You don't necessarily arrive 'just in time' to diffuse it, (unless you actually do) but if you don't deal with it no one else will and it will blow, giving you the more severe penalty to nation score.

I don't think I find this particular concept all that fun. Seems cool on paper but will probably just be annoying and tedious when playing the game. This is a TBS and most TBS players aren't that fond of time limits. Turn limits are ok, time limits not so much.

How do your troops possess the ability to diffuse an alien power core or self destruct device, surely if you can research alien technology it and use it to fabricate new weapons, (which is also movie magic) you could diffuse a broken one.

Eh, no? The troops aren't engineers or researchers that are up to speed with the technology. they get a manual how to use and probably how to mainting the fire arms, not how the ships components work or interact with each other. Even if they do understand the technology fixing something that the aliens has been unable to fix for some reason seems really odd to me.

There is a recovery mechanic for alien bodies, but none for alien craft. I find the overkill mechanic kind of annoying at the moment, but if it was a question of collecting intact alien craft for research and repair (for use for late/final game?, Orbital Interception?) that would be awesome.

what do you mean? they break it down into parts, don't they? I'm assuming the controls either doesn't respond to humans or otherwise inaccessible... so an intact craft is useless.

I do really like the idea of a self destruct mechanic though and would be happy to settle for that. The last ai or 2 should try to make a break for the red button. It seems it would solve tedium of hunting down any stragglers in repeated similar missions.

Is it an automatic loss, and you lose all your soldiers on that mission, if and when the alien reaches the red button? If not does the computer voice count down in English?

[ooey]

Is it an automatic loss, and you lose all your soldiers on that mission, if and when the alien reaches the red button? If not does the computer voice count down in English?

You are making me think of Star Trek, the search for spock now (or was it the wrath of khann?)!

[Voidfoam]

Well the Aliens are not afraid of blowing their shit up rather than have it Captured. Xenonauts should be well aware of that since the Iceland incident pretty much left nothing but a blast crater the size of small town. And that was all they had to study up til now, so some sort of awareness of this occurring is nothing more than obvious.

But i also find rushing half of the globe deactivating it is strange. But i like the idea of having them trigger a meltdown of their power core during the fighting if they are loosing. Sometimes.

And i also really like getting information from interrogations to hit them when they are weak or unprepared. Maybe during preparations for building a base, Abduct missions, Resupply or in the middle of mating season.

[meowmers]

what about pimping out your troops as a PMC to nations to increase their funding or just give you a cash bonus. these would be optional and appear just like terror missions except you'd fight OpFor guys instead of aliens.

or optional geoscape missions like to shoot down a ufo in specific territory in a month and not recover it so the country can get their hands on it. or reduce your coverage over a country, so another can get an "advantage" (NATO vs. WP stuff). none of the missions would really have an impact on the game except extra cash or improved scores.

[HWP]

how about we include boston 31/01/2007 mission so they have sinister looking devices there and you go to defuse them on hovertanks and stuff and they turn out to be just harmless LED

Let's get serious.

[thothkins]

Are you suggesting there should be or assuming there is? Chris has stated that leaving a crash site to disappear on it's own will not result in any penalty other than the missed loot. I don't think it is likely to change.

I know this has come up before. I know that it won't be in the game. But I guess I still don't quite get this one. Hopefully some nice person will explain.

My brain-in-a-jar thinks like this today:-

Xenonauts exist to protect funding nations from alien threat.

Xenonauts shoot down the craft, so fulfil part of that duty.

However, aliens running around the countryside is also a bad thing:-

- they terrorise the locals.

- they infiltrate for other aliens

- they can cause strategic damage to the humans

- they take up parking space with their crashed ship

- they take up jobs in the post office and start interbreeding with the locals.

- there are no extradition treaties with Alpha Centauri so their legal status is up in the air.

All bad things, yet there's no penalty for this.

Is it just that the game sees the downing of the craft as the most important thing in the grand scheme of things? Therefore a few pesky aliens isn't going to make that much of a difference?

Actually, if you land at the site, and do very very badly you could lose more points than if you left the site completely alone. Perhaps it's a risk to take, offset by the retrieval goodies.

[HWP]

Therefore a few pesky aliens isn't going to make that much of a difference?

Well, once their mission has failed, what difference are they going to make?

This is heavily asymmetrical warfare. Aliens have, what does the lore say, 10,000 UFOs in orbit? At ten crew average, which seems to be the average, that's around 100,000 lifeforms. Earth has 5 billion.

100,000 vs 5,000,000,000. They better do more than pound their chests and shoot random civilians, because there's 50,000 for every one of them.

[thothkins]

Well, once their mission has failed, what difference are they going to make?

um, some reasons were given in my post?

A big other reason is a morale issue and subsequent impact on Xenonaut funding. If the nations see aliens running all over their countryside, then perhaps they would reassess their funding levels. Civilians terrified of said aliens running all over their countryside would be putting pressure on their own governments to defend them not Madagascar or wherever.

100,000 vs 5,000,000,000. They better do more than pound their chests and shoot random civilians, because there's 50,000 for every one of them.

Sgt Pancakes: Where's the damn alien power source. Who's taken it?

Cpl thothkins: Never mind, it's not important

next day...

Sgt Pankakes: Hey did you read about that detonation in Olso? We were just there. You don't think...

Cpl thothkins: We shall never speak of this again.

My point being that there's all sorts of mischief that a small, determined and often desperate group can get up to if not checked. Pretty much any conflict in history would be able to provide you with further examples. They didn't have alien technology either.

It's fine if the scope of the alien orbital invasion are the reason behind the lack of a penalty. My original post is simply looking for some clarification on it.

[HWP]

If the nations see aliens running all over their countryside

That assumes they don't already.

To the extent that a fraction of 1 in 50,000 - that is, if 5% of aliens are running wild, something like 1 in 1,000,000 - can be considered "running all over", of course.

My point being that there's all sorts of mischief that a small, determined and often desperate group can get up to if not checked. Pretty much any conflict in history would be able to provide you with further examples. They didn't have alien technology either.

Bolded.

Bolded != crashed UFO crew. And it takes more than determination, it takes local knowledge, mission and plan. Plus lots of luck.

Alien technology on the ground amounts to harder-hitting guns, and considering that AR-15 is well sufficient against an unarmored target, it really doesn't amount to anything.

[thothkins]

That assumes they don't already.

Beyond the Iceland Incident, there would have been a small spike of initial light scouts/scouts that the funding nations failed to intercept. No mention of landings. Alien craft are being adapted for the atmosphere, so nothing heavier is appearing before the start of the game. Therefore, as far as we know they don't already.

Bolded != crashed UFO crew. And it takes more than determination, it takes local knowledge, mission and plan. Plus lots of luck.

Ah my mistake. I forgot that the aliens were actually space tourists, and thought they were a trained military invasion force. So no ability to plan. I wonder why they're even bothering with alien AI in the game. Unless the terror maps have a gift shop for them all to descend upon.

As for local knowledge, well they have a pretty handy oversight of things, what with the fleet being in orbit. Not to mention alien infiltration, which would take some knowledge presumably beyond "Take me to your fleshy leader, that we may assimilate him."

Alien technology ...really doesn't amount to anything.

Perhaps that's the real reason why the Xenonaut funding reduced. In the 1960s, after everyone had spent a decade wetting themselves following the appearance of that same alien technology, someone said, "You know the aliens are pretty rubbish really."

[HWP]

Therefore, as far as we know they don't already.

Talking about midgame, when they well might.

Ah my mistake. I forgot that the aliens were actually space tourists, and thought they were a trained military invasion force. So no ability to plan.

The first aliens you fight bear a rank of "Noncombatant". Is that above captain or below, I forgot?

No, they don't have an ability to plan a 9/11 durka jihad mission in every possible place they might get shot down over. They plan for a particular mission, which, since you had shot them down, has failed.

someone said, "You know the aliens are pretty rubbish really."

Alien technology in ground combat is, in a real-world scenario, of no added value. Yeah, they can penetrate armor that no one outside the military is wearing anyway - so they could just as well pack Glocks.

But yes, in the end the aliens are pretty rubbish, since they got beat by you. Without even calling for Duke's help.

[thothkins]

Talking about midgame, when they well might.

ah, nice of you to mention that..now.

They plan for a particular mission, which, since you had shot them down, has failed.

Since there's someone working on the AI, are you suggesting that the Xenonuats encounter all the aliens on a battlescape sitting in a circle crying "Oh, the mission failed."? That they don;t do this surely indicates that they have the capability to adapt to different circumstances?

Alien technology in ground combat is, in a real-world scenario, of no added value.

Well, the Iceland Incident thing did make them out to be pretty unbeatable. The ones you meet in the game, aren't at that level. Thinking of Predator nukes would suggest it really depends on the level of technology available to the aliens? that's taking it it out with what we have here, but just as an example. Noted that Predators get beat by every human they run up against too

[HWP]

Since there's someone working on the AI, are you suggesting that the Xenonuats encounter all the aliens on a battlescape sitting in a circle crying "Oh, the mission failed."? That they don;t do this surely indicates that they have the capability to adapt to different circumstances?

I'm sure they can adapt. I'm also sure they don't have a 9/11 planned that just so happens to involve them crashing exactly there.

Well, the Iceland Incident thing did make them out to be pretty unbeatable.

That may be so, but it's ancient history, what we see in the game suggests that the only ground combat advantage aliens have is armor-piercing guns. Oh, wait, half of them aren't wearing any armor and another 45% wear armor that is easily pierced by human precision rifles, so it doesn't matter. So the only advantage they have is, let me think, they can pound their chests - no, that's EU - well, I think it's that they... OK, I give up.

[thothkins]

I'm sure they can adapt. I'm also sure they don't have a 9/11 planned that just so happens to involve them crashing exactly there.

I'm not sure why you're fixated on them being Jihadists. There are plenty of other options available to them, some pointed out previously. But it's good we're at least agreed that they can adapt.

That may be so, but it's ancient history

I think you'll find my following sentences partially agree with you there. It's not so much ancient history. In Iceland they face a pretty large force and hold it off without too much difficulty before the explosion. Here, you have a small squad that can take them out. All down to that tactical Xenonaut training I guess, although it's a bit of a stretch.

Perhaps the AI will provide some surprises, to a point that it's still winable?

Perhaps the UN lowered Earth's difficulty level between the late 1950s and late 1970s?

[HWP]

I'm not sure why you're fixated on them being Jihadists. There are plenty of other options available to them, some pointed out previously.

Like running around shooting at the nearest civilian they can find.

No, sorry. Durka or bust. Terrorism and political assassination are the only ways a tiny team can make a measurable difference. And both are pretty hard for them because, you know, of all the prejudice.

Here, you have a small squad that can take them out. All down to that tactical Xenonaut training I guess, although it's a bit of a stretch.

Maybe it's training, but the difference is that Xenonauts can take them out close up without damaging the valuable salvage.

Seeing how aliens die pretty readily when shot, there's no reason a rain of mortar shells wouldn't do the job of just killing them.

[thothkins]

No, sorry. Durka or bust. Terrorism and political assassination are the only ways a tiny team can make a measurable difference. And both are pretty hard for them because, you know, of all the prejudice.

Yes, but as you point out with political assassination, there are a variety of ways in which terrorist cells operate beyond driving/flying into stuff.

Alien 1: What do you mean it won't start?

Alien 2: Well it doesn't have a Mind Interface! I don't know how it goes!

Alien 1: The human called it a truck, before we killed it. Are so saying you can't start a human truck?

Another Alien terrorist cell is foiled.

[HWP]

And then there's all of the totally unreasonable xenophobia and racism that make people give suspicious looks to aliens that stumble in the middle of a president's entourage.

[thothkins]

And then there's all of the totally unreasonable xenophobia and racism that make people give suspicious looks to aliens that stumble in the middle of a president's entourage.

I imagine people just assume that they're royalty. Well, David Icke and his followers anyway.

[HWP]

That's a good point, but I think that rather than assassinate anyone, aliens would much rather join the primaries with the lizard people.

"Birth certificate? Well, how does this look for a birth certificate?"

[MasterArmadillo]

Possible missions that could help with diversity:

Re-secure area 51, it has been over run since the attack

Raid alien installations for additional weaponry

Destroy the alien beacons to delay inevitable attacks

rescue leading scientists to add to your science team

Protect/clear military bases

locate ancient artifact before the aliens do

eat all the dots before the ghosts get ya waka waka waka

[meowmers]

Possible missions that could help with diversity:

Re-secure area 51, it has been over run since the attack

Raid alien installations for additional weaponry

Destroy the alien beacons to delay inevitable attacks

rescue leading scientists to add to your science team

Protect/clear military bases

locate ancient artifact before the aliens do

eat all the dots before the ghosts get ya waka waka waka

I like a lot of the ideas, but it everything including the rewards should have an optional feel. The game shouldnt be unwinnable because you can't get past a certain mission or it doesnt fit your play style.

I am hoping for more friendly/hostile interaction with non-alien factions. something like Apocalypse. so that if you wanted to go rogue and become an arms dealer you could still fund your operation.

That's a good point, but I think that rather than assassinate anyone, aliens would much rather join the primaries with the lizard people.

that gave me the image of Xenonauts busting into the state of the Union to assassinate the president who is suspected to have been replaced or has become sympathetic to the Aliens. Edited October 21, 2012 by meowmers

[Safe-Keeper]

The more I think about it, the more I feel the game would SWAT-style police action. Because, well, that's basically what the game is already . Like, sneak into a building where alien sympathizers have taken hostages and barricaded themselves.

In part because I played way too much SWAT3 up until 9/11.

At the same time, I'm playing Xenonauts to shoot down UFOs and kill aliens, and I don't know if I want too many "side missions" that don't directly involve aliens. So, encountering civilians as well as friendly and hostile human combatants on missions, fine, but I don't want too many special missions other than perhaps the classic stuff like base raids, base defense, alien terror missions and whatnot.

[Safe-Keeper]

The more I think about it, the more I feel the game would SWAT-style police action. Because, well, that's basically what the game is already, but also because I played way too much SWAT3 up until 9/11 . Like, sneak into a building where alien sympathizers have taken hostages and barricaded themselves.

At the same time, I'm playing Xenonauts to shoot down UFOs and kill aliens, and I don't know if I want too many "side missions" that don't directly involve aliens. So, encountering civilians as well as friendly and hostile human combatants on missions, fine, but I don't want too many special missions other than perhaps the classic stuff like base raids, base defense, alien terror missions and whatnot. Also, a hostage situation would require a pretty different AI for the enemy combatants, which in turn would take a lot of work to code.

No, sorry. Durka or bust. Terrorism and political assassination are the only ways a tiny team can make a measurable difference. And both are pretty hard for them because, you know, of all the prejudice.

wut.

Please, contact some of the surviving European saboteurs, underground activists and commandos of WWII they were doing it wrong. "Heavy water sabotage? Secret newspapers? Gathering intel for the Allied invasion of Normandy? Why didn't you just go on a German bus with a rucksack bomb or fire homemade rockets into cities full of civilians like normal people? No wonder you guys got yourselves occupied".

Er, no .

Edited October 23, 2012 by Safe-Keeper