Specialized training

[GooberCat]

After playing the new XCOM: EU I came to love the fact that you could have specialized soldiers. I don't necessarily agree with not having a choice on what you get... but maybe you could train a batch of soldiers and see what they are "gifted in".

IE: if someone has a medical aptitude they could go to a med center to train up their medical skills.... or another person sniper school.. and on and on.

I just think something like the above could add an interesting dynamic to the game while keeping the core the same. People who have to choose more on the type of soldiers they are bringing to a fight and makes them think more on the types of weapons they use.

Just my two cents.

Keep up the great work!

[Shuichi Niwa]

People who have to choose more on the type of soldiers they are bringing to a fight and makes them think more on the types of weapons they use.

You mean you don't do that in the old XCOM ?

O_o

Almost everyone that I knew did that. Nothing new here, only they make it obvious and easy for newcomer to do and guide them to do that. With us oldie actually it limited us T_T

[Katzura]

In old XCOM I found it to be quite essential to train my soldiers to do diffrent things, didn't need a system to lock them into place to do that.

[GooberCat]

Im not saying "locking them" what I mean is to have the option to build a structure like "sniper school" or "med school" to be able to have advanced training options unlocked or learned. If they dont goto school per say... they are more like a jack of all trades.... thats all I mean

[TheColonel]

Advanced training would be a good idea but my 2 cents for its implementation goes like this. Firstly the school is a building that takes up base space, secondly the school has to be staffed by a minimum of experienced Xenonauts. I am a huge proponent of the idea that skilled Xenonauts should be able to pass along experience and knowledge to newer recruits (it's a backbone of any military training apparatus).

Consequences would need to be considered however, assuming you need a minimum of ranking Xenonauts to staff the building how many can you afford to commit to training new soldiers? Remember, if this is to remain balanced you simply cannot have access to your experienced soldiers assigned to training while they are teaching a group. 3-5 ranking Xenonauts would be my recommendation for staffing to enable the building to be used at all.

[Shuichi Niwa]

Advanced training would be a good idea but my 2 cents for its implementation goes like this. Firstly the school is a building that takes up base space, secondly the school has to be staffed by a minimum of experienced Xenonauts. I am a huge proponent of the idea that skilled Xenonauts should be able to pass along experience and knowledge to newer recruits (it's a backbone of any military training apparatus).

Consequences would need to be considered however, assuming you need a minimum of ranking Xenonauts to staff the building how many can you afford to commit to training new soldiers? Remember, if this is to remain balanced you simply cannot have access to your experienced soldiers assigned to training while they are teaching a group. 3-5 ranking Xenonauts would be my recommendation for staffing to enable the building to be used at all.

Nice. Remind me of training system of Colonization where you have to have a professional teaching so that people can learn his profession.

However I assume the only actual training they would have is a slightly increase stats in the direction of their training right ? For example I would think for balance and avoid game-breaking purpose the training school would looks like this.

First, new recruits will be able to attend to ONE and ONLY ONE course they choose. After that they "graduated" and are "grey-out" in the training school so that they can't keep being a student their whole life and then emerge in the battlefield as some kind of Super Human.

There will be different course with different benefit. For example

================

Medic Course - Basic

================

Staff Requirement - 1 Sergeant with 60+ Brave and 60+ TU

Time required - 15 days

------------------------

+10 Strength [for carrying stuffs]

+10 TU

+10 Bravery

And then there are Sniper Basic course, HeavyArms Basic course, etc. with each course have different benefits in stats that suit that class of soldier [sniper will increase Accuracy, HeavyArms will increase Strength and Resilience, etc]. Of course with later game and sufficient upgrades new courses will become available but with higher requirement for the teaching staff and also longer time learning, but with more benefit.

That is a training system I think will be interesting and won't break the game.

There can be a proper story behind it too. That it's a crash course teached by veterans so that their new recruits have more knowledge and can survive the war ahead betters. Also as the game progress our veterans and Xenonaut have gain more valuable fighting experiences against the aliens so they can teach more efficiently and thus more Advance course to help further up the stats increasing of late game new recruits. Also it would be cool to have your veterans at the base teaching the new recruits and then when you need them on the battlefield you give them an emergency calling, or when the alien attack their base they would face some of our deadliest and strongest soldiers [at least they should be since they would be teaching new recruits] waiting for them with a confident grin on their faces. That would be epic...

Edited October 16, 2012 by Shuichi Niwa

[ElTee]

Im not saying "locking them" what I mean is to have the option to build a structure like "sniper school" or "med school" to be able to have advanced training options unlocked or learned. If they dont goto school per say... they are more like a jack of all trades.... thats all I mean

Well, so long as 'Sniper School' just effects current soldier attributes (Accuracy, for example), I'd be fine with it.

[Katzura]

I would be fine with it if it were to be implemented as goobercat said along with shuichi niwa elaborated. wouldn't lock my soldiers into any role, just give them a little start boost to make sure they get just a little bit less horribly slaughterd on their first mission.

[TrashMan]

Hmmm..it all depends on how it's done.

I hate overspecilazation I hate the way XCOM:EU did it.

Bonuses with specific weapons or items? Sure why not.

As long they can still use every other weapon and tool in a decent fashion.

UFO:AI actually has skill ranks in various weapons AND a global accuracy score.

[ElTee]

Giving them specific bonuses for equipment would create classes/specializations, practically speaking. Instead of having a "soldier who is a good shot", you have "soldier who is better with precision weapons". I think bonuses for equipment should be avoided for that reason.

If you make it like...

Strength: Weightlifting/Gym

Accuracy: Marksmanship/Gun Range

etc.

And just have it increase it by X points per day, up to Y.

I'd be fine with that. Although I don't know how I'd feel about them being separate slots. Aren't there like 8 or 9 different attributes? So you might actually have to create a base just for training if you want optimized bases.

[TrashMan]

And what exactly does that accomplish? Just upping accuracy makes one more accurate with every weapon.

As it is, soldiers can gain skill points rather fast, so of what use is a Gym or a gun Range?

And in real life, you really can be better with one weapon than another. That however, doesn't make it into a class system.

The accuracy stat is still there. Any solder can still use any weapon. There are no penalties or restrictions.

[Chris]

We considered training, but then I decided to remove the system. I think soldiers should level up in combat rather than through training. We may implement a system like in the new X-Com though where the soldiers you can recruit become more powerful as the game goes on to make losses a little less punishing.

[ElTee]

And what exactly does that accomplish? Just upping accuracy makes one more accurate with every weapon.

As it is, soldiers can gain skill points rather fast, so of what use is a Gym or a gun Range?

And in real life, you really can be better with one weapon than another. That however, doesn't make it into a class system.

The accuracy stat is still there. Any solder can still use any weapon. There are no penalties or restrictions.

Regarding the first and second question, you already answered it. The point is that through training, you'd boost a specific attribute.

Like I said, I already am against the idea of additional constructions anyway. Let alone having to have like 4-8 of them.

It /does/ make it into a class system when you get a bonus for using specific equipment. A lot of games (not just videogames) have the weapons they use as a primary factor or even the only factor of what the character class is. You don't need to name classes for classes to exist.

The last point: If I give someone who only gets a bonus for precision weapons a laser carbine, I am effectively penalizing myself for not optimizing and giving him a precision weapon.

[thothkins]

We considered training, but then I decided to remove the system. I think soldiers should level up in combat rather than through training. We may implement a system like in the new X-Com though where the soldiers you can recruit become more powerful as the game goes on to make losses a little less punishing.

Yuck! not at all keen on that one. While I see where it comes from, having a super-newbie come in just minimises/mocks all the effort put into getting the experienced troops where they are.

[Gorlom]

Yuck! not at all keen on that one. While I see where it comes from, having a super-newbie come in just minimises/mocks all the effort put into getting the experienced troops where they are.

Depends on if the highest rank you can get to recruit is a corporal or a captain doesn't it?

[thothkins]

It's as much starting stats as rank really.

After finding his way from the Chinook, John thothkins (preloaded soldier //18 hint) manages to get some stat increases through a number of missions. Three months later Arnold Bicepabuse is recruited. Arnold's stats are much better than any of the "best of the best" when they started. How? Why? Where? Is anyone happy? No. Mainly because Arnold is clearly on alien steroids.

After the unfortunate friendly fire incident in November 1979, the Commander decides to recruit a Captain into the rans from the hire pool. Has Captain Gorman received his rank through the special ops of Xenonauts? Has he earned it through his mission survivale against attacking alien hordes? Is anyone happy? No, and another friendly fire incident is planned by the troops.

[Gorlom]

It's as much starting stats as rank really.

After finding his way from the Chinook, John thothkins (preloaded soldier //18 hint) manages to get some stat increases through a number of missions. Three months later Arnold Bicepabuse is recruited. Arnold's stats are much better than any of the "best of the best" when they started. How? Why? Where? Is anyone happy? No. Mainly because Arnold is clearly on alien steroids.

After the unfortunate friendly fire incident in November 1979, the Commander decides to recruit a Captain into the rans from the hire pool. Has Captain Gorman received his rank through the special ops of Xenonauts? Has he earned it through his mission survivale against attacking alien hordes? Is anyone happy? No, and another friendly fire incident is planned by the troops.

.... that's just insidious! Not the by cpl John Thothkins planned friendly fire as much as you purposely horribly misspelling my name like that.

[thothkins]

.... that's just insidious! Not the by cpl John Thothkins planned friendly fire as much as you purposely horribly misspelling my name like that.

You're so sensitive about your name, Garland. I was actually referring to the Lt in Aliens for that post. It's all "Me, me me" with you

[Gorlom]

You're so sensitive about your name, Garland. I was actually referring to the Lt in Aliens for that post. It's all "Me, me me" with you

I suspected it wasn't me. But I recalled someone liked to taunt me for the typos of my name and thought it would be funny. also I wanted to use the mad smiley

[thothkins]

and it was funny well, I chuckled anyway.

[TrashMan]

It /does/ make it into a class system when you get a bonus for using specific equipment. A lot of games (not just videogames) have the weapons they use as a primary factor or even the only factor of what the character class is. You don't need to name classes for classes to exist.

The last point: If I give someone who only gets a bonus for precision weapons a laser carbine, I am effectively penalizing myself for not optimizing and giving him a precision weapon.

According to your definition, every system is a class system.

If some attribute makes a soldier better at something, aren't you penalizing yourself for not using him in that capacity?

Without defining what one means with class system, this conversation cannot continue in a meaningfull fashion.

From my experience when talkign about a "class" system, most people refer to the closed classes system.

Like XCom:EU has.

You upgrade/promote/select a class and each class has special items and abilities only it can use in order to make it unique. This almost always means redicolous restrictions for the sake of "diversity". Items and abilities are efectively closed off, encapsulated.

In contrast to other system where that is not the case. There are no unique items of super-skills restricted to only one class. There is no class per say in the first place. You "heavy" can pick up a sniper rifle and use it, and so on.

[TrashMan]

It's as much starting stats as rank really.

Arnold's stats are much better than any of the "best of the best" when they started. How? Why? Where? Is anyone happy? No. Mainly because Arnold is clearly on alien steroids.

Has Captain Gorman received his rank through the special ops of Xenonauts? Has he earned it through his mission survivale against attacking alien hordes?.

Well, if you are getting recruits form the earths militaries, and they ARE fighting the aliens as best as they can...then yes. Arnold and Gormal probably did earn their scars and striped by butting heads with aliens.

[SirAstral]

Wow, somehow this whole thread seems to have been derailed into a class/classless system debate, class systems are unavoidable, the real question is are you going to lock units into a class. If I take 2 units and give one a sniper rifle and the other a rocket launcher... guess what? I have effectively created two classes of soldiers when you get right down to it, the difference is really that next mission I can give them different weapons changing their classes without necessarily any drawbacks.

A specialization system should be available but not in the way everyone is thinking. These specializations can be randomly attached to hired units and do not have to be trainable, but if there is call to train them then make it an off base event. No need to build a base add-on when equivalent real world training in already available military facilities will do! Here is a short list of reasonable and honestly tactically enhancing specializations that I believe would only enhance the depth of game play.

Mechanic (Can field repair vehicles up to a limit and torch cut doors or weld shut doors, plus drive those vehicles baby!)

Medical (In Xenonauts everyone is unrealistically a medic that can field dress serious wounds?)

Pilot (Who is flying these guys around? The cockpit is empty every time I start a combat mission, ghost pilots?)

I believe these specializations would ad an important tactical element to the game. For example, right now I would only use a vehicle as fodder or a front line mobile meat-shield since it does not gain experience. Units should man this vehicle grow in experience and be able to enter/exit the vehicle in the field. Another good example is that if you only have one pilot and he gets his skippies shot off in combat then you will have to send another transport to carry or para-drop another pilot to fly your crew back. It should also add the idea that you need to defend your transport for the obvious reasons instead of just leaving it open to invasion. You don't even have to include pilots as a regular part of your combat squad but they should still be sitting there in the cockpit. And last but not least... the good ole medics. It is the same thing that bothered me in the original x-com, everyone is a medic. There should be 3 classifications for wounds...

Light wounds: 70% health or higher remaining - Chance of Bleeding Condition

=Unit is still 100% combat effective no stat reduction

=First-Aid by self or untrained unit with med-kit can stop bleeding if present

=First-Aid by Medic can stop bleeding and restore some lost HP.

Injured Condition: 25%~69% health remaining - TU costs increase 50%

=Unit is placed in injured/bleeding condition reduces stats (Strength/Reaction) and will take a knee

=Movement in injured+bleeding status causes additional damage of 1 hp per step taken

=First-Aid by non-medic only removes bleeding status

=Requires immediate attention of a unit with medical specialization to stop bleeding and prevent further deterioration.

Critical Condition: 24% or less health remaining - TU costs increase 100%

=Unit is initially incapacitated and listed in Unconscious+Critical+Bleeding condition.

=First-Aid by non-medic will remove bleeding status only.

=First-Aid by Medic will remove Unconscious+Bleeding status and restore some HP.

=Unit remains in Critical Condition with reduced stats (Strength/Reaction/Accuracy)

Units in Injured or Critical Condition should be force assigned to infirmary until their health is at least 70% where they can resume active duty.

This scheme would also introduce the options to add medical advancements that can come from studying alien tech. With enough research an advanced med-kit can be created that allows non-medics to be as effective as a minimally skilled medic. Another would be to allow a medic to use researched chemicals to enhance a units stats for a couple of turns allowing them to move super long distances. Withdrawal and side effects can be added if these drugs are 'over used'.

There are lots of potential tactical elements to introducing at least some sort of real world specialization.

And yea, I fully believe in rocket launching & machine gun toting medics & pilots too! There is no reason a medic cannot shoot just as good as another unit, but there is a reason a unit may not be able to Pilot or provide quality Medical Triage! So Yea!

[ComMcNeil]

We considered training, but then I decided to remove the system. I think soldiers should level up in combat rather than through training. We may implement a system like in the new X-Com though where the soldiers you can recruit become more powerful as the game goes on to make losses a little less punishing.

Let me try giving you a counter argument:

In XCOM 1 and 3 (not really played Terror from the Deep) - there was a point after which you had practically no longer any tactical mission, because you literally shot down any UFO that appeared before it could do anything and with better aircraft, there wasnt even a crash landing most of the time, only for very large UFOs

So, to have something for your soldiers to get better, even if they dont do every small mission there is on the planet anymore, would be good.

If you look at the new XCOM, the problem there is the following: even though you later get "classed" recruits with 1 level up, they still suck agains late game aliens (at least on classic), so a lost high level soldier is even more problematic. Also in the new XCOM, soldiers only level, they dont increase statistics individually like in the old XCOMs or Xenonauts. Of course, a training facility should still be a good deal slower than any real combat experience, but it should make it still possible to get some competent recruits out of there.

[meowmers]

weapon/equipment specializations are a bad idea because they limit and funnel players into a certain style. If i want to equip my guys with just Rocket Launchers, i shouldn't need all Heavys. There shouldn't be any additional advantages to taking a "balanced" squad, and i dont think it should even be suggested.

what if specializations worked like the medals except with stats.

someone who is good at shooting is a good marksman.

so FA>60 gives a bonus, FA>70 gives double bonus.

it simulates training, natural ability, familiarization and conditioning