Kerimax Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Hi, I think that the fog of war (greyed out places in the ground missions) doesn't seem to be balanced well. Under normal conditions, clear sky etc., soldiers should see miles far away. Do they all have a sight problem? I understand that such a game feature might be there for a more balanced gameplay, however isn't it limited too much? Perhaps binoculars would help - I think it would be a really nice add on to the gameplay. Can you imagine a sniper seconded by an observer equipped with binoculars? Also some people do have sight problems, not sure if they would be in the army, but I would suggest to work on the sight distance a bit. Maybe each soldier could see into a different distance based on their precondition. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Hi,I think that the fog of war (greyed out places in the ground missions) doesn't seem to be balanced well. Under normal conditions, clear sky etc., soldiers should see miles far away. Do they all have a sight problem? I understand that such a game feature might be there for a more balanced gameplay, however isn't it limited too much? Perhaps binoculars would help - I think it would be a really nice add on to the gameplay. Can you imagine a sniper seconded by an observer equipped with binoculars? Also some people do have sight problems, not sure if they would be in the army, but I would suggest to work on the sight distance a bit. Maybe each soldier could see into a different distance based on their precondition. Cheers Despite that paragraph about understanding it is for gameplay reason, you don't seem to consider it from challenging gameplay perspective. For example you are asking for binoculars for an exceptional advantage for snipers. I don't understand how that would be fun though. why would longer more "realistic" sight ranges be fun? wouldn't that mean that the game would require bigger maps? and that in turn would make moving around on the map more tedious... wouldn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElTee Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 I haven't played V16 yet, but I did think the first map was a bit small. Still OP, you need to consider that you'd need either: 1. More maze-like maps 2. Much bigger maps Otherwise characters would see across the entire map. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 It's deliberate, as realistic sight ranges would essentially destroy any tension in the battles (and we don't want that). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWP Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Could this be made customizable via the xml files, in case someone is working on an overhaul mod taking that into account? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khall Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Different armour give you different sight ranges, you can see further and at a wider angle with basic armour compared to jackal. The values are in "armours_gc", e.g: <Armour name="BasicArmour"> <Resistance kinetic="5" energy="0" chemical="5" incendiary="5" /> <VisualParams range="16" coneAngle="90" /> Just increase the numbers to get more realistic sight ranges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWP Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Ah, right, I see, so easily modified already. Should try out long ranges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElTee Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Cool. So you could mod a game where there's bigger FoW, and bigger maps to compensate. Although you might want to give soldiers more TUs so ground can be covered faster, what with bigger maps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Cool.So you could mod a game where there's bigger FoW, and bigger maps to compensate. Although you might want to give soldiers more TUs so ground can be covered faster, what with bigger maps. One thing to keep in mind, while a soldier can make out terrain features and buildings miles away, spotting enemies that are trying to hide is a whole different issue. It's quite possible to walk within inches of a hidden enemy without noticing them. As far as I can tell Xenonauts doesn't make these distinctions so I prefer the "unrealistic" sighting distances for terrain as a sacrifice for more realistic combat. Also, things never look the same on ground as they do on a map or aerial photo. The Xenonauts are almost always in an unfamiliar place when they are fighting. Finally, I doubt the Xenonauts mapping system or possible the computer hardware could support large enough maps to have the effect you're looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svidangel Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Ah, browsing through and found this. Was thinking about it from a different perspective. Night missions don't seem to have the same feel as they did in the original, and I think it has to do with the visual range vs lighting range. Possibly because the sight range is so short (shorter I think than in the original?) night missions don't really feel "worse" or "scarey" like they used to. I tried using flares once at night and... they didn't really do anything since I could see about as far as I could throw the flare, and if I threw the flare any farther... the flare was blacked out by the fog of war leading to some weird lighting on the tiles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 (edited) Ah, browsing through and found this. Was thinking about it from a different perspective.Night missions don't seem to have the same feel as they did in the original, and I think it has to do with the visual range vs lighting range. Possibly because the sight range is so short (shorter I think than in the original?) night missions don't really feel "worse" or "scarey" like they used to. I tried using flares once at night and... they didn't really do anything since I could see about as far as I could throw the flare, and if I threw the flare any farther... the flare was blacked out by the fog of war leading to some weird lighting on the tiles. I think it has more to do with the aesthetics of the Fow. It's gradual fade to black isn't as dark (or gradual) as in the original. the squares were almost black while still allowing the units to see aliens in them. The Fow in Xenonauts looks a bit too clean. Other posts on Fow: clicky with picture example clicky for thread about the cosmetics of Fow Edited October 23, 2012 by Gorlom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andeerz Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 (edited) Hmmmm... I think the other thing with both day and night missions is, too, that there are still issues as to when you can see incoming fire or fire passing through revealed tiles between turns that you should. Anyway, I'm pleased that view distance can be edited as things are now, so I can test out some hypotheses... I feel, though, that realistic sight ranges wouldn't remove tension at all nor require larger maps or anything like that, provided there was a mechanism for calculating whether a soldier or enemy sees someone in their line of sight (like if there is an alien behind an obstacle in the line of sight of a soldier, there would be a calculation made every turn to see (provided the soldier keeps the same facing) if the soldier actually sees the alien, thus revealing the alien to the soldier and perhaps all the others on the soldier's side... just think of spot checks in D&D... calculations could be modified by distance, cover, light level, size, camo, etc.). The only time in the game the view distance as it is now actually makes a some sense is during the night missions, and then only when the enemy is not in direct light from lampposts and the like. Also... no amount of increasing view distance would take away the tension of fighting indoors or anywhere else with a lot of obstacles obscuring view (which I think includes almost all completed maps). Here's what I suggest: Make sight ranges realistic, as in pretty much unlimited. Make the revealing of aliens (or humans if we are looking from the alien's POV) not a 100% thing if within line of sight, making it instead something that is calculated, taking into account factors such as light, distance, angle from center of view, and cover. Bonus: Combine it with the aesthetics stuff Gorlom linked to, which are awesome ideas Also, maybe have all terror and landing maps start off like the Xenonaut base maps; completely revealed, with the exception of the interiors of structures. What do I think would be gained by something like this? Immersion, and through this, more convincing tension. I think there is a difference between the tension one feels due to limitations imposed by some metagamey contrivance than the tension one feels due to limitations imposed by something that seems emergent from the game universe itself. In other words, it's better for a limitation to cause you to think about the setting more than about the fact that you are playing a game. Edited October 29, 2012 by Andeerz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belmakor Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Cool.So you could mod a game where there's bigger FoW, and bigger maps to compensate. Although you might want to give soldiers more TUs so ground can be covered faster, what with bigger maps. That sounds essentially pointless unless you have trouble suspending your dependence on realism - which is surely difficult in a game set in 1970s with an alien invasion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andeerz Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Just in case anyone is interested... I just played the game with aliens and humans having view ranges beyond the size of the map... I can definitely say it's more difficult, with the aliens definitely having the upper hand as soon as they bring their elite units to bear, at least in the maps I tried! Modifying the game in this way creates quite a bit of anxiety (in base defense missions especially) and doesn't break the game... but I think in order for it to actually be interesting and proper, it requires some sort of way to determine whether or not a unit sees another unit in their line of site instead of it being 100%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcorps Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 Fog of War is more than sight distance. There is the literal meaning that includes the restricted visibility caused by smoke, debris, etc..but there is also the state of confusion brought about by a high stress environment. Movement is reduced, communication is more difficult, judgement mistakes are more likely, accuracy and other measures of efficiency are reduced, and it's easier for the individual to misinterpert what his senses are telling him. The term was first introduced by a Prussian military analyst named Carl von Clausewitz, and he spoke of a "fog of uncertainty" Read Vom Kriege (On War) for an excellent bit of mental exercise. Fog of War doesn't just mean the tactical, it also applies to the strategic and operational level. In the case of video games, Fog of War is usually iterated as a visual penalty. Applying other penalties would be difficult at best to balance. To have a realistic FOW in a tactical scenario, you would sometimes not see an alien that is only a few meters away, or you would direct the fire of your entire squad on that group of aliens to discover that you killed a cat. You soldiers would go somewhere other than where you clicked or not move at all, they wouldn't fire at the targets you indicate, they would fire at targets that you don't want engaged (like civilians) and other things that would make a game like this suck. The visual range is a pretty happy medium imho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FranTorres Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 It would kill the tension, I just used to play JA2 1.13 using 2 teams of sniper/observer.... I killed enemies from half map distance with bolt rifles, they never knew what killed them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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