I am an XCOM veteran and have now played XCOM: Enemy Unknown.

[LittleNicky]

I started up UD again last night and I've gotten 3 Terror Missions in month 2 so far, all of them at night lol.

All of my terror mission happened in the night. I think the terror mission maps don't have a day.

[LittleNicky]

So how exactly does XCOM limit you guys from playing the game the way you want to? Please elaborate.

I don't get it, you guys want your strategy games to be sandbox games? That's cool I guess, but I'm willing to guess a lot of people are going to disagree with you if you want XCOM to be more like Skyrim, you know, the game where the best strategy is to literally just run at your opponent and swing your weapon like a 3 year old with a temper tantrum, you're going to have a hard time selling that to X-Com fans. Or maybe you just want your Interceptors to fly backwards when they patch the game, or have seizure mutons.

Like I said before, if that's the game you want to play, feel free to make it, and then tell me how it goes over.

I think you are asking about the fraxis game? Sorry for my english is not as good. I might be incorrect.

The fraxis game does not give me a good feeling of freedom to do things. there are some places like soldiers with litle control of them and their equipment. This is very bad for the players.

If I didn not understand I am sorry.

[Sinfullyvannila]

The whole point of the two move system was so that you would have to commit to your actions. It makes you think about what you want to because you can't take it back. Anything that forces you to think more cannot mean dumbing down.

And it more or less works out the same. In the old one, if you can't get a good shot, you spend all of your TUs to run for cover. You just get more chances to hit the less you move(which is still reflected by certain class perks and mechanics, like Double-Tap, Bulletstorm and the Rocket Launcer and Sniper rifle firing restrictions).

[Sinfullyvannila]

I think you are asking about the fraxis game? Sorry for my english is not as good. I might be incorrect.

The fraxis game does not give me a good feeling of freedom to do things. there are some places like soldiers with litle control of them and their equipment. This is very bad for the players.

If I didn not understand I am sorry.

Nah, it's cool. What I was asking specifically was how that limits the strategies you bring into play. Sure, Soldier can carry less equipment than before, but it's still more or less the same equipment from the original. You can still use pretty much the same strategies as before, you are just limited in the resources you can bring along.

Actually, I'd argue than the new system gives you more options, since the original didn't even have the supplemental armor or SCOPE equivalents, although it did have proximity grenades. I do miss those.

[LittleNicky]

Soldiers don't stop when they see the enemey. They cannot fire on the enemy and then run. they cannot use actions for things like to heal with the medkits then do other things. Soldier is locked to some things like weapons and ability if he is a certain class. Soldier classes are random assined to the soldiers. They cannot shoot the things in the world but by missing the enemy. The equipmrnt for them is making no logical reasoning for things like shirt or scope or grenade. I do not understand. All these things are not for more options. They are less.

[Sinfullyvannila]

Soldiers don't stop when they see the enemey. They cannot fire on the enemy and then run. they cannot use actions for things like to heal with the medkits then do other things. Soldier is locked to some things like weapons and ability if he is a certain class. Soldier classes are random assined to the soldiers. They cannot shoot the things in the world but by missing the enemy. The equipmrnt for them is making no logical reasoning for things like shirt or scope or grenade. I do not understand. All these things are not for more options. They are less.

You have less flexibility in the order that you can do things, but none of that stuff is all too different from the original(you can blow up cover with explosives, and the soldiers' stats were randomly assigned in the original). Well other than stopping when you see an enemy(which makes planning your move less important), and restricted class weaponry(which I agree is a bad thing).

So you still have roughly the same amount of tactical options as the original, the game just doesn't allow the same flexibility. You have to sacrifice some to gain others.

lack of flexibility =/= lack of freedom.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Sinfullyvannila

[HWP]

I personally managed to get over all of these things. I even came to terms with just 1 grenade - the missions are so short it barely matters. And yes, lack of flexibility == lack of freedom.

But one thing I could never come to terms with is the dumb alien activation mechanic. Even on impossible, they just sit there doing nothing. The hell? Aliens don't have radios? Can't hear gunshots?

As a result, on impossible (the only difficulty presenting even slight challenge), the success of almost every mission hinges entirely on when exactly you activate the alienzzzz. The whole game is about activating them in the right moment in the turn and one group at a time.

Yes, it's a somewhat enjoyable run, but as a strategy game, the worth of EU is zero. Not one bloody red cent. There is no strategy. There is no tactics. It's worthless as a TBT or a TBS, it's not a TBT and it's not a TBS. It's just an arcade test of patience to space out monster activation.

[Sinfullyvannila]

Well, the original's tactics can be summed up by the Zap Brannigan strategic theory.

And no, that first comment is not from me.

[LittleNicky]

I desire both flexibility and freedom. I suppose that is why I do not like the new game.

[HWP]

Well, the original's tactics can be summed up by the Zap Brannigan strategic theory.

And no, that first comment is not from me.

I have lost, I think, four rookies in early UFO missions and one man in the attack on Cydonia on a superman run of UD.

You're just a fanboy defending EU no matter what, and when you can't defend it, you unsuccessfully try to appear sarcastic.

[Sinfullyvannila]

That's cool. I just get annoyed when people equate less freedom to dumbing down. It gets really annoying considering the first one takes a lot less thinking to beat.

[HWP]

Because you insist on playing the broken unpatched version, rather than patched to fix the difficulty set to tutorial bug.

[Sinfullyvannila]

I have lost, I think, four rookies in early UFO missions and one man in the attack on Cydonia on a superman run of UD.

You're just a fanboy defending EU no matter what, and when you can't defend it, you unsuccessfully try to appear sarcastic.

Why would I need to defend it when the overwhelming consensus is that it's an awesome game?

I wasn't being sarcastic either. It's really true, although you can minimize your casualties on UD, you can still beat it simply by sending sacrificial lambs out to soak reaction shots while your vets mop up.

[Sinfullyvannila]

Because you insist on playing the broken unpatched version, rather than patched to fix the difficulty set to tutorial bug.

I'm more familiar with TFTD than UD, because I bought that one long before UD. It's not that different.

[LittleNicky]

Why would I need to defend it when the overwhelming consensus is that it's an awesome game?

I wasn't being sarcastic either. It's really true, although you can minimize your casualties on UD, you can still beat it simply by sending sacrificial lambs out to soak reaction shots while your vets mop up.

That's cool. I just get annoyed when people equate less freedom to dumbing down. It gets really annoying considering the first one takes a lot less thinking to beat.

This is exactly the point in question. it was possible to make a play style as such because there was freedom to do so. In the new game there is no freedom to do things as this. Dumb down is exactly what hapened. as if fraxis is afraid a player can do some things he wishes and instead gives very limited options. This is almost 'dumbed down' by definition. I do not undertand how you think this is not.

Edited November 1, 2012 by LittleNicky

[Sinfullyvannila]

Because you need to think a lot more to beat the game.

Just because a game has lots of freedom doesn't mean you actually have to use your brain to beat it. Usually it's the opposite because when designers use the "kitchen sink" philosophy, good design, difficulty crafting and balance go out the window. Look at TES games, or like any post-BG2 Bioware game. SOOOO much freedom, SOOOO brainless.

[LittleNicky]

I did not think at all to beat the new game. It almost played itself for me to watch. I do not like that.

[LittleNicky]

Because you need to think a lot more to beat the game.

Just because a game has lots of freedom doesn't mean you actually have to use your brain to beat it. Usually it's the opposite because when designers use the "kitchen sink" philosophy, good design, difficulty crafting and balance go out the window. Look at TES games, or like any post-BG2 Bioware game. SOOOO much freedom, SOOOO brainless.

I think I know the reasoning now from this. I think you do not play a game for the game itself. It seems you play a game for the beating of it. I am not like this and rather to play a game for the fun of the game and for being creative and doing many things. I do not even really care if I can beat it. I am still playing fallout new vegas even today and have never beaten it and it is fun to me anyway. I think this is why we do not agree on the new xcom.

edit - Now that I think back I do not remember beating the first xcom game as well. Yet it was fun to me.

Edited November 1, 2012 by LittleNicky

[Sinfullyvannila]

Nah, I play to have fun too, and also to experience as many games and design philosophies as possible. I actually have a very short attention span when it comes to games and usually don't play games for more than 10 hours or so, let alone play them through completion. We just both enjoy different things. I just don't think that freedom is the end-all be-all for fun.

There are some games where freedom and creativity really click with me. Games like Minecraft or Dwarf Fortress. Games where you set out to build "projects". For most genres like Strategy, RPGs and Platformers, I really appreciate immaculate design over freedom.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Sinfullyvannila

[LittleNicky]

I agree. Minecraft is very much fun. I cannot understand Dwarf Fortress. I do not know what I see on the screen.

We are opposite I think. I like the games that bring me in for many hours to let me do many things freely. I am 343 hours on fallout new vegas as example

[Sinfullyvannila]

Here's some stuff that may help you with Dwarf Fortress.

Lazy Newb pack featuring graphics packs and tools like Dwarf Therapist:

http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Lazy_Newb_Pack

Youtube tutorials:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dwarf+fortress+tutorial+2012&oq=Dwarf+Fortress&gs_l=youtube.3.4.0l10.4219.8728.0.11638.14.7.0.7.7.0.172.1019.0j7.7.0...0.0...1ac.1.JaAXK6K2vKU

Dwarf Fortress Wiki, the site has mutiple pages for each major edition of DF, so make sure you are reading the version 0.34.xx(AKA DF2012) articles:

http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Main_Page

Yeah DF is a tough game to learn and ASCII art doesn't help. I usually play with the wiki up at all times lol.

I really like FO:NV too

[LittleNicky]

Thank you!

[HWP]

I wasn't being sarcastic either. It's really true, although you can minimize your casualties on UD, you can still beat it simply by sending sacrificial lambs out to soak reaction shots while your vets mop up.

And this doesn't apply to EU because?

Oh, wait. Because EU doesn't have reaction shots to worry about. Aliens don't shoot at you on their activation turn, so you're in perfect safety. Reaction shots only happen if you fail to take them out immediately, and assaults are immune anyway.

Once you have all 16 satellites, you have unlimited funds. Since you only really need 4-5 soldiers, you can send as many vehicles to soak damage as you want. And guess what, EU's vehicles actually can enter UFOs, they don't get stopped by narrow doors and single-tile lifts, and they have some serious damage-soaking capacity.

But an easier way to beat EU is simply by moving extremely slow so that you never fight more than 3-4 monsters at a time. There is no AI. It's like Duke Nukem all over again, except this time you have 6 dukes versus 3 aliens.

Because you need to think a lot more to beat the game.

You don't need to think at all to beat EU. The game beats itself just fine.

That was my assumption, that I'd have to think, that's why I started on Impossible from the get go. Shot myself in the foot pretty badly by selling most of my corpses and weapon fragments to build more sats, they're expensive with SW on.

But now I'm swimming in cash, panic is in the green across the globe, I just need to do the occasional raid to get more fragments to research everything and finish off the story. Didn't turn Ironman on, but turns out that it didn't matter - I only reloaded older saves to retry the first two missions, from then on it all glides smoothly. Got people critically wounded, but no one of value lost yet.

Edited November 1, 2012 by HWP

[Sinfullyvannila]

It's all relative dude. I'm not saying you have to be a grandmaster strategist to beat EU, but a child can beat TFTD pretty easily. I know I could, because I did it when I was 11.

And you had unlimited funds in UD once you could manufacture Laser Cannons, so it's really no difference from EU there.

[GoodGuyEddy]

@Sinfullyvannila

FULL FANBOYISM HO!

Really your posts are so annoying to read right now. People gave you a ton of legit reasons of why this game is dumbed down. The reason you don't see it is becouse you hold your hands to your ears and say : "Herp derp derp blocking it out".

The whole point of the two move system was so that you would have to commit to your actions.

So? You also have to commit to your actions in a TU based game. in a TU based game you have to think about how you spend your TU.

Anything that forces you to think more cannot mean dumbing down.

Oh yes it can. If the only thing that is forcing you is poor game design.

So you still have roughly the same amount of tactical options as the original, the game just doesn't allow the same flexibility.

You have just admitted that a 1994 unfinished, pushed out game is more tactically flexible than a 2012 finished one. Seeing a problem here?

And yes flexibility = freedom. Becouse with more flexibility there are more manuevers and thus more strategies that you can execue.

And it more or less works out the same. In the old one, if you can't get a good shot, you spend all of your TUs to run for cover. You just get more chances to hit the less you move(which is still reflected by certain class perks and mechanics, like Double-Tap, Bulletstorm and the Rocket Launcer and Sniper rifle firing restrictions).

It does not work the same. I already listed thatin a revious post. And it is not reflected because in a TU based game(like GA2) everyone can do that. The "perks" are just a cheap way to try to cover up for the abundance of nonsensical limitations of the modern game. Now a gunslinger perk is a cool idea for this RPG system, ideas like that are good. But not the ability to shoot twice. Everyone should be able to do that. I mean if i don't waste time running and the shooting once but just start shooting and only be able to shoot once, where does the extra time go? And at least a third of all the "skills" are like that. Running out of ideas how to pad out the "skill" tree firaxis? Oh yes silly me, they wouldn't want to give too many options to the player in a TBS, they would actually need to develop a proper AI, and balance the aliens *le gasp

The reason i'm saying this is not because the unfinished original was a perfect game. But because a 60 FUCKING DOLLAR GAME, THAT IS A STRATEGY, HAS NO RIGHT TO BE A MORE SHALLOW STRATEGICAL EXPERIENCE TYHAN THE EXACT SAME GAME FROM 18 BLOODY YEARS AGO!

And frankly i don't know why i bother. Everyone that decided that the game is not woth the price already are aware of all the flaws via objective reasoning or bandwagoning, and those who do not will just block all the criticism out again.

Edited November 1, 2012 by GoodGuyEddy