Dropship storage space and worldmap structures

[TrashMan]

Two suggestions:

1) Storage locker inside of the dropship. That will enable you to take extra ammo/equipment on a mission and run back to the dropship to ressuply if necessary or if tactical conditions change.

2) Worldmap structures. If anyone played UFO: AI they know what I'm talking about

The ability to build structures on the wroldmap. All of these minor installations are self-contained and can be attacked and destroyed by aliens (automatic, no player impute here)

The structures could be:

- Radar tower (smaller range than the base radar, but cheaper)

- airstrip/fuel depot (aircraft/dropships can land ther to ressuply, effectively increasing their range by hopping from depot to depot)

- UFO yard?

- SAM site?

[Gorlom]

I like the idea of a storage locker on the transport.

I'm not sure radar towers or fuel depots sounds that interesting to me. I'd like something that the aliens could destroy but at the same time isn't intractable with from the players point of view. Possibly something that makes the nation that has it inside its boarders feel a bit safer and help with increasing the monthly funding but doesn't help with detecting or fighting UFOs.

(or simply something that you need to defend because if the aliens completes their mission to destroy it their ticker advances a lot.)

[Buzzles]

I'd rather not see worldmap structures.

As I'm currently playing a game of UFO:AI (v2.4), I have to say the world structure mechanic they've got isn't very good, mostly because the entire premise isn't good for gameplay.

Either you allow unlimited structures to be built on land which would be closer to RL but can and will result in you just spamming the map with Radar Towers and SAM sites, or you have a silly hard limit like UFO:AI has of 3 structures per Command Centre. Which is just incredibly jarring.

I'd much rather see no structures than either of those two scenarios, plus I don't actually think they add anything to the game.

As for dropship storage lockers, I'm also against that. Mostly because it'll make the game easier and remove tension unless you severely limit what can be in it (at which point, what's the point of having it?), also if you're going to look at it from a RL perspective, space and weight is at a premium and no real world aircraft have that sort of thing.

[TrashMan]

Why is the limit jarring?

Any game will have some kind of a limit. Any.

And dropships do have a large cargo capacity so they CAN and DO carry extra stuff.

So how does carrying an extra missile launcher in the dropship remove tension? You dont' know what you'll encoutner. And you still need to run back to the dropship and take the extra equipment.

[Gauddlike]

I personally prefer to have to decide on my equipment loadout before the mission and then deal with whatever situation I find myself in.

If you can carry loads of extra gear it does spoil the tension of that for me a little.

If a dropship locker was added I would probably just not bother using it.

If I really want to carry extra gear on the off chance I need it I can always put a launcher and a few missiles in peoples packs and leave it near the Chinook in a forward cache.

It doesn't really matter to my play style if it is there or not.

Better yet I would just carry everything I could and hope I get the chance to use it on something

I would only have external radar sites if your base had short range or even no radar.

Use them as your only way to detect the enemy and it means something when the enemy starts to roll them up.

Especially if they can slowly follow the chain back to your main base.

I do feel that with multiple bases they aren't really required though.

I should point out that I only played UFO:AI a little and it feels like a long time ago so I don't really remember how the external sites worked in that.

[Buzzles]

Why is the limit jarring?

Any game will have some kind of a limit. Any.

Oh yes. But there's always a tipping point between "not enough" and "wheee!". It's a fine line if it is even possible.

I still don't think those sorts of structures really add anything to gameplay though.

And dropships do have a large cargo capacity so they CAN and DO carry extra stuff.

So how does carrying an extra missile launcher in the dropship remove tension? You dont' know what you'll encoutner. And you still need to run back to the dropship and take the extra equipment.

Exactly! Currently it's sort of Rock Paper Scissors, you take a stab at what you think you need before you send your Chinook on the way and deal with it upon landing, for better or for worse. Allowing you to swap your equipment out mid-mission means that you're skewing it more much towards always ending up with a "good" outcome, or at least, avoiding the "worst" outcome.

[TrashMan]

Oh yes. But there's always a tipping point between "not enough" and "wheee!". It's a fine line if it is even possible.

I still don't think those sorts of structures really add anything to gameplay though.

I have played UFO:AI a dozen times and I NEVER had a feelign I didn't have enough structures.

Especially since you can have multiple base.

If anything it sometimes flet I had too much. I seeded the area around my base with advanced SAM sites and can shoot down ufos with impunity.

Exactly! Currently it's sort of Rock Paper Scissors, you take a stab at what you think you need before you send your Chinook on the way and deal with it upon landing, for better or for worse. Allowing you to swap your equipment out mid-mission means that you're skewing it more much towards always ending up with a "good" outcome, or at least, avoiding the "worst" outcome.

Rock/paper/scissors always has been and always will be a garbage mechanics as it's too artificial.

Also, swapping equipment doesn't avoid the outcome.

For one, just how much difference do you think swapping one or two weapons can make.

For another, by the time you make it back to swap the weapon the rast of your squad may be dead.

And for another, being up the creek wihout a paddel isn't fun. Having to do guesswork and being doomed if you guess wrong is not rewarding a smart strategy (because there is none). It's just punishingly stupid.

[Andeerz]

Well, seeing as how there will likely be multi-part missions in the future, it would make sense to be able to have some sort of storage on the chinook.

And the case of UFO:AI, such limits as they have are as garbage and too artificial as the sort of rock/paper/scissors mechanics mentioned by TrashMan.

[Gorlom]

As for dropship storage lockers, I'm also against that. Mostly because it'll make the game easier and remove tension unless you severely limit what can be in it (at which point, what's the point of having it?), also if you're going to look at it from a RL perspective, space and weight is at a premium and no real world aircraft have that sort of thing.

but but. the extra equipment stuff was in the original! surely it can't be all that bad?

if you have a limit to the total equipment the chinook can carry and make it include the equipment worn on soldiers in that calculation you should be able to have some limit without making the mechanic pointless.

[Buzzles]

Rock/paper/scissors always has been and always will be a garbage mechanics as it's too artificial.

Also, swapping equipment doesn't avoid the outcome.

For one, just how much difference do you think swapping one or two weapons can make.

For another, by the time you make it back to swap the weapon the rast of your squad may be dead.

And for another, being up the creek wihout a paddel isn't fun. Having to do guesswork and being doomed if you guess wrong is not rewarding a smart strategy (because there is none). It's just punishingly stupid.

Well the fact the new armour degredation system being put in will avoid the poo creek to some extent but I still need to point out swapping weapons will definitely avoid the outcome if you allow the player to do so.

Got a squad of riflemen being attacked by an Andron? Oh, I'll just pull everyone back, maybe take one casualties, and grab the rocket launcher from the drop ship. Hey presto! I've just gone and got paper for your rock! Rinse and repeat ad-infinitum.

At least in the soon to be current system (with armour degradation) you're going to have to stay and fight with what you've got. Probably involving lots of ducking around cover and praying while wearing down the target.

Rock Paper Scissors is already in the game, and based on past experiences, it's actually a fantastic way to balance a game, providing you supply enough rocks, scissors and sheets of paper to allow for variety.

[ElTee]

Well the fact the new armour degredation system being put in will avoid the poo creek to some extent but I still need to point out swapping weapons will definitely avoid the outcome if you allow the player to do so.

Got a squad of riflemen being attacked by an Andron? Oh, I'll just pull everyone back, maybe take one casualties, and grab the rocket launcher from the drop ship. Hey presto! I've just gone and got paper for your rock! Rinse and repeat ad-infinitum.

At least in the soon to be current system (with armour degradation) you're going to have to stay and fight with what you've got. Probably involving lots of ducking around cover and praying while wearing down the target.

Rock Paper Scissors is already in the game, and based on past experiences, it's actually a fantastic way to balance a game, providing you supply enough rocks, scissors and sheets of paper to allow for variety.

I'd rather have a storage locker to save a few turns from having to continuously wear down a target.

Adding a storage locker would add options to the game, and you'd be perfectly free to not use it.

I don't really care for additional installations, but I suppose it'd be useful to set up some sites in advance for when you can't yet afford an entirely new base.

[TrashMan]

Well the fact the new armour degredation system being put in will avoid the poo creek to some extent but I still need to point out swapping weapons will definitely avoid the outcome if you allow the player to do so.

Got a squad of riflemen being attacked by an Andron? Oh, I'll just pull everyone back, maybe take one casualties, and grab the rocket launcher from the drop ship. Hey presto! I've just gone and got paper for your rock! Rinse and repeat ad-infinitum.

At least in the soon to be current system (with armour degradation) you're going to have to stay and fight with what you've got. Probably involving lots of ducking around cover and praying while wearing down the target.

Rock Paper Scissors is already in the game, and based on past experiences, it's actually a fantastic way to balance a game, providing you supply enough rocks, scissors and sheets of paper to allow for variety.

Swapping weapons isn't a miracle problem solver.

For one it costs you time and turns to get back to da choppa adn switch. You think the aliens will stand stil land wait for you?

For another, you don't have 8 rocket launchers in the storage, nor do you have 100 rockets.

Your objections are redicolous.

[Andeerz]

Especially with the improvements coming with AI, I think TrashMan is right. There is a substantial trade-off going back to the Chinook, and presents a valid tactical and logistical challenge. Just think about how risky it is sometimes, even with the crappy AI in v15.1, to send just one or two people somewhere, especially to an open area like where the chopper normally lands. I've had my fair share of instances of running into those fast melee aliens, even when backtracking through areas I thought were cleared... and if I had less than three people encountering it, I would often lose someone.

Regardless, I don't see any game-breaking reason why this shouldn't be available provided there are reasonable limits to how much extra you can carry. Perhaps if the game could have it so that the more you load on the choppa, the less range it may have and may not be able to take off if you put too much weight on (like RL) ... And when there are multi-part missions, you sure as heck better be able to carry some extra gear on the chopper, or send in a resupply somehow.

[HWP]

Well, you did have storage space in your craft in X-COM original. I explicitly remember taking extra supplies and using them.

No reason it shouldn't be there in Xeno.

Real difficulties are good. Artificial difficulties, like not being able to take extra ammo in the chopper, are not.

Any mech-inf uses its APC, IFV and other transport vehicles to carry extra supplies, not just drop the troops off.

[Buzzles]

Swapping weapons isn't a miracle problem solver.

It is a problem solver though is it not?

For one it costs you time and turns to get back to da choppa adn switch. You think the aliens will stand stil land wait for you?

Cost of turns in a game where you have unlimited turns and time is a non issue.

And yes, the AI will move about. That's probably going to make it *easier* to get back to the dropship as they use their AP moving and chasing rather than shooting your troops.

For another, you don't have 8 rocket launchers in the storage, nor do you have 100 rockets.

Do I not? Why not? What limits are you imposing?

Besides, depending on the alien in question, you only need one missile launcher and one or two missiles.

Your objections are redicolous.

Apart from saying that you want it, you've still not said what the actual benefit is going to be to gameplay. Which is what I'm objecting to, and the fact it takes away a large amout of the importance of how you fit your squad up before a mission.

[HWP]

Apart from saying that you want it, you've still not said what the actual benefit is going to be to gameplay. Which is what I'm objecting to, and the fact it takes away a large amout of the importance of how you fit your squad up before a mission.

That is an actual benefit to gameplay.

It's a strategy/tactics game, not a dress-her-up.

Winning and losing should be based on how well you manage your tech and your troops, not on how well did you guess what kind of equipment will be needed.

A Chinook is pretty big and certainly can fit enough ammo for you to shoot like crazy, if you choose to, or swap your weapons again and again. If your troops dropped with parachutes, then you'd be right.

[Gauddlike]

The guesswork you refer to is still in play even if you allow extra gear to be carried on the ship.

Unless you make every thing you own available at the Chinook then you will still be guessing at what to take along.

You call it guesswork I call it a decision.

Do I have enough heavy weapons troopers or should Sgt Gungho McShootsalot grab a machine gun?

Ah why bother deciding just stick it on the Chinook and see if its useful later.

I see being able to carry everything you might need for every eventuality as a down side to the system rather than an up side.

Deciding what you can afford to buy/build, what your squad should carry, and what they should do with it when they arrive, are big parts of the game for me.

If you want to play it safe you give a few extra weapons to the troops strong enough to carry them.

[HWP]

A decision is when I have a craft that can carry 12.8 tons of useful load, and I decide to bring a 6.5 ton tankette, 0.9 tons of men, wearing 0.2 tons of armor and gear, 0.3 tons of armament and munitions and fill the remaining 4.9 tons with fuel.

Being forced to play a minigame of juggling everything I need into 18 boxes of particular shapes, then drop some to lighten the load and rearrange it is not a decision. It's an artificially imposed minigame that's otherwise completely orthogonal to the task at hand. It feels like playing TIM.

Ever play it? The Incredible Machine, a Rube Goldberg device building simulator. You have to perform trivial tasks through incredibly (hence the name) complex means, using a selection of impractical components like hamster cages. A mighty fun game. I don't even mind playing it at the same time as Xeno.

Except I don't want it to affect the outcome of my Xeno missions, I want to play it separately on a tablet during these "hidden movement" delays.

[Gauddlike]

So because you find the decision difficult it should be removed and you should be allowed to take everything?

How would that be made any easier by the Chinook locker suggested?

You still have to work out what gear you can carry and how to fit it in your inventory.

You still have the same limitations on inventory you just have your safety net of heavy weapons piled by your dropship.

So now instead of spending time at the base making sure you have a squad that can deal with the enemies they might encounter you pile everything you can into the Chinook without having to think about it.

That removes the decision on your squad loadout.

I have never had much problem getting a decent set of equipment onto my troops.

Main weapon in the hands, secondary weapon or medkit in the pack if needed, grenades or ammo on the belt.

That is not the incredibly complex task you seem to be suggesting it is.

Sometimes you have to lose out on movement AP if you choose to overload your troops.

You can choose to take lighter armour or less gear though.

To clarify:

I don't necessarily object to the idea, just to posts suggesting that not having the ability to carry extra gear (separately from what your troops can carry) somehow breaks the game or removes options when playing.

Edited October 13, 2012 by Gauddlike

[HWP]

It's not difficult. It's a decision that shouldn't be there in the first place. You aren't doing a para jump, you're bringing in a huge flying truck.

Yeah, I don't see why not bring in a few hundred pounds of extra equipment.

A "storage locker" option would limit that weight and volume, but it would let you, simultaneously:

1) Bring extra equipment that you expect you might use,

2) Give your soldiers a reasonable load, not carrying things "just in case there is a tank".

Let's have a small test. Imagine the situation, try to let it sink in deep.

Aliens are invading Earth. For real. You're in command of an opposing force. And you have children and reasons to live, so jumping off a bridge because TEOTWAWKI isn't an option.

You brought in a moderately armed squad to fight off aliens terrorizing a city. For extra tension, your daughter happens to live in it. But no matter. And, through a series of events, you ran out of ammunition. All your men are still alive.

Do you:

A: Say "Well, we did what we could, pack up guys"

B: Scream "Bayonets, CHA-A-ARGE!!"

C: Backtrack a bit and grab some spare ammo, because you flew in on a 20-ton machine that won't get its back broken by an extra crate of ammo?

[TrashMan]

Cost of turns in a game where you have unlimited turns and time is a non issue.

And yes, the AI will move about. That's probably going to make it *easier* to get back to the dropship as they use their AP moving and chasing rather than shooting your troops.

You do know you do have objectives? Like keeping civilians or VIPs alive? And keeping your troops alive.

The idea that running back to the dropship in the middle of a mission is not an issue is redicolous. You don't know where all the aliens are. What about flanking?

If you spend 6 turns getting the equipment, that 6 turns of alies doing theirstuff..including killing your guys.

A delaying tactic while you bring in a proper answer to threat is a valid tactic.

Please, think before you type.

Do I not? Why not? What limits are you imposing?

Sensible limit. You're not going to be hauling the entire armory with you.

Apart from saying that you want it, you've still not said what the actual benefit is going to be to gameplay. Which is what I'm objecting to, and the fact it takes away a large amout of the importance of how you fit your squad up before a mission.

I'm objecting to your objection.

It is ill-concieved as is your notion that it adds nothing to the gameplay.

[TrashMan]

You still have to work out what gear you can carry and how to fit it in your inventory.

You still have the same limitations on inventory you just have your safety net of heavy weapons piled by your dropship.

So now instead of spending time at the base making sure you have a squad that can deal with the enemies they might encounter you pile everything you can into the Chinook without having to think about it.

That removes the decision on your squad loadout.

No it doesn't. It only adds extra decisions.

[Buzzles]

The idea that running back to the dropship in the middle of a mission is not an issue is redicolous. You don't know where all the aliens are. What about flanking?

If you spend 6 turns getting the equipment, that 6 turns of alies doing theirstuff..including killing your guys.

A delaying tactic while you bring in a proper answer to threat is a valid tactic.

By that very logic you're using there, the idea of running back to the dropship to swap out weapons IS ridiculous, because you're right: There are aliens about, they are going to move around and yes, you don't know where they are and they could flank you.

Because that's what's being proposed by the weapons locker idea. The ability to run back and change things out.

Also TrashMan, I'll ignore the personal attack implying I'm an idiot this time.

That is an actual benefit to gameplay.

It's a strategy/tactics game, not a dress-her-up.

Yes. Exactly! It IS a strategy and tactics game.

And do you know what a valid tactic is when you're presented with an overwelming threat, lots of casualties or one you just can't deal with?

Retreat and abort.

It might be because I'm a big fan of rogue-like games, such as FTL or Dwarf Fortress, but I'm *very* much in favour of putting the player in situations where they're not always going to come out on top.

Situations where in the game mechanics you are given the option of either retreating to fight another day or plugging onwards, lead to a much deeper game where your decisions matter even more. Hell, the chance of earning a pyrrhic victory really adds to games I find.

Handily with the soon to be added armour degredation system, there's always going to be a way to take out the enemy, even if it's the suboptimal way and will result in more troop losses, which means the chance of finding yourself in a scenario where it's either retreat or death is lessened, in turn reducing any need for the weapons locker to ensure you've got a way of optimally combating every threat!

I really do feel that adding a weapons locker to the dropship is simply going to reduce scenarios where retreating and bugging out is the sensible option, and it's going to reduce the chances of a pyrrhic victory, as the locker will help to ensure you've pretty much always got the right tool for the job. It will tip the balance of the game more into the favour of the player.

Edited October 13, 2012 by Buzzles

[Gauddlike]

Let me give an example that I think fits better.

You are playing a game.

Do you:

A, want a challenge and to have to think about what you are doing or

B, want the decisions to be simplified in case you may not have the specific best weapon for the job.

I see loading your squad down with anything they could possibly need in any situation as option B.

If you would have preferred a rocket launcher because it would have made your mission easier then bring one next time you deploy.

If a second (or third, fourth whatever) machine gunner would have helped you against the tougher aliens you are starting to meet then maybe you should consider bringing some along next time.

If you don't do so well in a mission because you didn't have a specific toy then it isn't the end of the game.

[Shuichi Niwa]

A "storage locker" option would limit that weight and volume, but it would let you, simultaneously:

1) Bring extra equipment that you expect you might use,

2) Give your soldiers a reasonable load, not carrying things "just in case there is a tank".

I think this is quite reasonable arguments.

You do know you do have objectives? Like keeping civilians or VIPs alive? And keeping your troops alive.

The idea that running back to the dropship in the middle of a mission is not an issue is redicolous. You don't know where all the aliens are. What about flanking?

If you spend 6 turns getting the equipment, that 6 turns of alies doing theirstuff..including killing your guys.

A delaying tactic while you bring in a proper answer to threat is a valid tactic.

Please, think before you type.

And this is not. Please, think before you type. I can't understand why you try twisting logic just to make your point. Why would it be bad or heavily-affect the game strategy-wise just because you can bring some more equipments with you to the mission ?

With a calcualted-size locker put in my dropship, I wouldn't worry about lacking one or more bullet clips in some unlucky mission with a long dogfight going on. And as well my soldiers won't need to be burden with too much "back-up just-in-case" equipments that may never been use. Instead I know I had them and can use them I I think the direction of the battle is going bad and I need them.

Strategy-wise, the thing about running back and fro to take your equipment from the dropship shouldn't even be mentioned here. Each person have their way of doing it. Your way of playing does not make other ways nonsense. I can just have one of my less useful lower ranking soldier go back for the equipment while the others holding back the fort, or I can even have someone with the "Courrier" written on his back that state his role in the combat. Problem ? No, cause that's other people way to play, and why should you have the right to tell people what how to play their game ?

Please look at the main problem here - if the use of the locker would help add to the gameplay or not. And if it would harm the gameplay or not. I say I like that idea and surely there msut be other people who think so. About harming the game with your "decision" and "what-to-bring-tension-atmosphere", sorry, I think they are not actually harm but just your opinions. You may not want it, may not use it, but if others do and it is logical, good for playing experience then don't be so negative.

You are playing a game.

Do you:

A, want a challenge and to have to think about what you are doing or

B, want the decisions to be simplified in case you may not have the specific best weapon for the job.

In the event that the locker is available, it's not a 4th dimension pocket that you can put oh-anything-i-want in, you know. There should be limit to its size or weight . That way it doesn't "simplified" anything, because you still need to have your soldier with the right equipments. However, it bring a realistic sense that you still have some back-up emergency things in your dropship in case things go bad. Because the soldier are not fighting for fun, they fight for the world and most important, their lives. So why would having some emergency equipment stock away in your dropship make the game less challenge ??? If you really have to go and get them, well we know we are screwed heavily here. And like I said it can help not making the soldiers all carry semi-useful things with them.

If you don't do so well in a mission because you didn't have a specific toy then it isn't the end of the game.

Think about it in the perspective of the people in the game. To you, it's a game. To the commander of the Xenonauts, a failed mission or a success with heavy casualty is a TRAGEDY.

Situations where in the game mechanics you are given the option of either retreating to fight another day or plugging onwards, lead to a much deeper game where your decisions matter even more. Hell, the chance of earning a pyrrhic victory really adds to games I find.

I lol'ed. Why would having some emergency equipments affect this ? Why would it harm in this case ? You tell me please... From my point of view, with this extra equipments your chance to "plugging onwards" would be increase and that wouldn't be epic ? Taken heavy casualties, now the soldiers have two choice - retreat to base or continuing the mission objectives. And if they do want to continue, they got a bit of supply still in the dropship. Is that so bad ?

In case you guys mean to make the game harder by not allowing a logically thing, I have nothing to say anymore. That's not making a game epic or give it tension. It's purely cheating in design.

Edited October 13, 2012 by Shuichi Niwa