Have Pistols Take Up Less Space

[ElTee]

Right now, 6 slots is actually more than what's needed. At least if you go by the pic, it's 4 slots.

Making it 4 would let you have some spare capacity if you opt to not take a medipack, which would be nice.

As is, you have to choose between having ready access to a pistol, LMG ammo or medipack. Making the pistol four slots could let you fit in at least grenades, magazines or a single LMG ammo.

Edited October 12, 2012 by ElTee

[HWP]

I have to... disagree.

Pistols are small and convenient. When carrying, it's easy to even forget that you have one.

A compact pistol weighs a little over a pound. A service pistol is two pounds, and even automatic combat handguns like Beretta 93R or Stechkin APS are only 3 pounds.

With rifles, you're looking at 6 lbs for a varminter, or 8 lbs for a combat rifle. About 10 for a battle rifle or a marksman weapon.

Size-wise, pistols are further more compact, relatively, than the weight ratios suggest. You could pack four as you go about your day, without it showing. Apparently xenonauts can't.

If we go by weight, a pistol should take two slots, vertically or horizontally. There's no reason for it to take more. As it stands, pistols are pretty much useless, even as backup weapons, you'd rather have nothing at all, because it takes so much space.

While at that, a regular rifle and a shotgun shouldn't really take as much space as a machinegun or a RPG either.

In real life, any soldier armed with a heavy weapon, like a TAW, would carry a secondary weapon, normally a service pistol (PDW are a modern option). In real life it's a no-brainer, pistols are light, compact, they don't burden you. In Xeno it's not a serious option because pistols take just so much space.

For no reason at all other than... well, I'm not really sure.

Edited October 12, 2012 by HWP

[GoodGuyEddy]

Game>real life

[HWP]

If you feel the game should ignore real life, why not fight aliens with kittens and puppies? Make kittens cause Kawaii Damage, depending on target's skin care condition. Research new breeds and in the end shame aliens to death.

[Kentaro]

Pistols are small and convenient. When carrying, it's easy to even forget that you have one.

I don't know what long-term carrying experience you have, but you *do* notice 3lbs of weight strapped to your dominant leg (i.e. right leg for right handed people) after a while.

Size-wise, pistols are further more compact, relatively, than the weight ratios suggest. You could pack four as you go about your day, without it showing. Apparently xenonauts can't.

Again, I have no idea what type of day that would be where you pack 4 9mm pistols with easy enough access in combat situations.

Backpacks don't count.

If we go by weight, a pistol should take two slots, vertically or horizontally.

Xenonauts uses both weight and volume to limit the inventory.

In real life, any soldier armed with a heavy weapon, like a TAW, would carry a secondary weapon, normally a service pistol

In real life you are wrong. Any soldier armed with a heavy weapon like a machine gun or RPG-equivalent has 6 or 7 squadmates with assault rifles protecting him. That's the whole point of a squad. Having the "honour" of carrying the MUCH heavier and inconvenient machinegun or RPG-equivalent is enough burden as it is.

Edit: What is a TAW? Tactical Assault Weapon?!

Back on topic:

I could see having an extra pouch on the inventory screen for pistols, and ONLY pistols to make them a more viable option.

Edited October 12, 2012 by Kentaro

[Gorzahg]

Pistols are viable and they don't need to be smaller. The belt isn't the only place to put gear.

[HWP]

I don't know what long-term carrying experience you have, but you *do* notice 3lbs of weight strapped to your dominant leg (i.e. right leg for right handed people) after a while.

Oh. I find shoulder holsters more convenient.

Now that you reminded me of ankle strapping, yeah, you can actually pack 8 pistols, 4 compacts and 4 full-size, with easy access. But these many will keep reminding you that they are there. Ankle isn't very convenient.

Why would you? No reason. Just because you can. And if xenonauts can't, something might be wrong.

In real life you are wrong. Any soldier armed with a heavy weapon like a machine gun or RPG-equivalent has 6 or 7 squadmates with assault rifles protecting him.

He has, yet what I say is verifiably right. Real-life militaries issue you a sidearm or even a proper gun if you carry a heavy weapon. Particularly if it's a RPG. With machineguns it depends, a SAW gunner tends to go otherwise unarmed, a HMG operator will likely have a gun, in between it varies.

Edit: What is a TAW? Tactical Assault Weapon?!

Meant TOW, sorry.

For special pistol slot, I'm not sure. X-COM had a belt where a pistol was pretty much a dead fit. But still, maybe a choice to carry something else there is better.

[ElTee]

Game>real life

Okay..?

Pistols are viable and they don't need to be smaller. The belt isn't the only place to put gear.

Yes. Having been through the soldier screen, I'm very well aware there's the "Primary Weapon/Secondary Weapon" slot, Backpack and Belt slot. The Belt is the only place to readily use a pistol if your xenonaut uses a non-pistol/grenade weapon for his "Primary Weapon", since it"ll also take up the "Secondary Weapon" slot.

Right now the pistol takes up more volume than what the picture shows, so you're stuck between having ready access to a pistol, LMG ammo or a medipack. If it was reduced to four slots, it wouldn't be such an issue. I don't forsee Chris adding more inventory slots like one for the thigh, so making the size of the pistol match the volume it actually takes up in the inventory works best.

[TrashMan]

agreed

[Kentaro]

To not sidetrack the discussion with RL experience (or lack thereof), I put the non-game relevant aspects in spoiler tags.

Oh. I find shoulder holsters more convenient.

More convenient for what? Strutting around in public with a concealed weapon?

There's a reason why militaries around the world use leg holsters. Allow me to elaborate:

1) webbing

2) body armor

3) really painful when hitting the ground or diving for cover to have a pistol press into your ribcage, possibly breaking them.

4) time to aim the pistol at the enemy is much faster than with a shoulder holster.

Real-life militaries issue you a sidearm or even a proper gun if you carry a heavy weapon.

Neither me nor any member of my squad have ever been issued a sidearm in my 8 years of service, regardless of which weapon they were assigned. Pistols were assigned when assault rifles were too cumbersome or..well..overkill (military police, traffic control and the like)

Maybe some special force (capable) units would but, certainly not regular troops.

Meant TOW, sorry.

TOW = tracked optical wire. the rocket itself weighs about 23kg (50lbs?)

HMG = heavy machine gun, aka M2 with 50cal rounds.

No soldier carries a TOW or a HMG around like that. These are mounted weapons. Are we still talking about sidearms or are you broadening the subject now to vehicle crews as well?

Personally I don't use pistols in any game, as I find them ineffective when seeing the alternative - grenades (area) or melee weapons (much more damage/stun potential later on). I use the belt almost exclusively for grenades.

[HWP]

Hmm. I suppose different branches and militaries do it differently. Just in case, I mean any firearm, not necessarily a pistol, going with rockets or missiles.

Back to the game, yes, with pistols taking so much space, the alternative is always better.

[GoodGuyEddy]

If you feel the game should ignore real life, why not fight aliens with kittens and puppies? Make kittens cause Kawaii Damage, depending on target's skin care condition. Research new breeds and in the end shame aliens to death.

Never said it should. But you are complaining about realism too much. There is a point where adding more realism only hurts the game.

You want to take them out completely. But they serve an in game function for snipers/grenaders as a quick and cheap to use source of damage so they wouldn't be helpless if they ever find themselves in close quarter combat. Every little bit of gunpower helps, and making pistols useful gives you more options during the tactical combat of the game.

Which makes you feel smarter for making up contingency plans and makes the tactical portion more fun and engaging.

EDIT - someone confirm this. But weren't there plans for the pistol to be a belt wepon? The ui gives us a button to quickly throw a greade/flare without opening the inventory and waste ap on unequiping the weapons from the hands. Wasn't there a plan to do the same but with shooting a pistol? (hence their support weapon functionality)

Edited October 12, 2012 by GoodGuyEddy

[HWP]

Never said it should. But you are complaining about realism too much. There is a point where adding more realism only hurts the game.

Even if there is such a point, any game in existence or in development is far, really far away from approaching it. Even VBS2 would only benefit from more realism.

It's adding realism in an imbalanced way - i.e. adding realism in one aspect while failing to add realism in another aspect that in real life balances the former - that tends to hurt a game.

For instance, reducing ammo capacity while forgetting to give weapons real damage, or giving weapons real damage and range while forgetting to add wind drift, bullet drop and gun spread. Yes, BF3, I'm looking at you. But anyway.

You want to take them out completely.

Oh, no, you misunderstood me. I want to keep them, and make them at least realistically sized, so that they aren't a huge burden and you can issue them to everyone if you want to, or not if you don't. If a pistol is almost the size of a rifle, it's pointless.

[GoodGuyEddy]

Oh, no, you misunderstood me. I want to keep them, and make them at least realistically sized, so that they aren't a huge burden and you can issue them to everyone if you want to, or not if you don't. If a pistol is almost the size of a rifle, it's pointless.

Well still waiting on the confirmation thing. But if the "Belt" mechanic gets implemented for the pistol then they will be very useful with easy to use access(no un/re equipping two handed weapons, just hold the grenade launcher in one hand while quicly unholstering the gun and shooting the alien and holstering it back again, and resuming to operate the big gun with both hands) and just sitting in the belt "holster" not bothering anyone. Techically there shouldn't be a problem with the inventory's space because filling it up would add too much weight. But that is a beta concern.

[TrashMan]

Pistol is a big big. 2x2 would be proper (at least for the starting pistol)

[Gauddlike]

Just increase the size of the picture, solves all of the issues with the picture not fitting the space the picture takes and means you don't have to bother messing with the pistol files!

Incidentally if you open up weapons.xml you can alter the slotsizex and slotsizey settings for any of the weapons.

You might need to resize the pistol picture a little as well to make it fit your new size though.

[HWP]

Is there going to be a "Collector's Edition" release of the game that includes one of those pistols as a collectible item? Having one would be pretty nifty.

Although delivery time might be an issue if it has to be shipped by sealift.

[thothkins]

If you feel the game should ignore real life, why not fight aliens with kittens and puppies? Make kittens cause Kawaii Damage, depending on target's skin care condition. Research new breeds and in the end shame aliens to death.

what's the point of that?

Cpt thothkins: "Oh look, we're being invaded by vast alein hordes."

Cpl HWP: "Best let the cat out then."

>sound out catflap<

> sounds of vast alien horde having their entrails displayed to them so graphically, I can't even type it.<

>sound of catflap<

Cpt thothkins: "Good kitty"

not much of a game is it?

"this is Jones. Last survivor of the Nostromo, signing off."

[HWP]

Well, I dunno. If you give them stats that produce the exact same gameplay mechanic, what difference does it make?

Oh, and instead of Sectoroids and Snakemen, have the aliens be variously Mexicans, Cubans and Puerto Ricans.

[thothkins]

Well, I dunno. If you give them stats that produce the exact same gameplay mechanic, what difference does it make?

Well, the cat version would be much cuter, but as it will last as long as the cat wants to play with it's food, I just don't think you'd be getting the same bang for your buck as they say somewhere or other.

Oh, and instead of Sectoroids and Snakemen, have the aliens be variously Mexicans, Cubans and Puerto Ricans.

Can't. My cat doesn't like spicy food.

Interesting on being able to draw the pistol and fire while hefting a larger weapon. It might be more effective with later pistols. At present, I just throw them into a corner to distract their attention.

[vaultdweller]

I concur that the pistol takes up too much inventory space.

I kind of miss the original game's broad variety of inventory slots with different TU costs to access - legs, shoulders, belt, etc. I guess the ship has already sailed on that design decision, though.

[ElTee]

Just increase the size of the picture, solves all of the issues with the picture not fitting the space the picture takes and means you don't have to bother messing with the pistol files!

Incidentally if you open up weapons.xml you can alter the slotsizex and slotsizey settings for any of the weapons.

You might need to resize the pistol picture a little as well to make it fit your new size though.

Nope, it fits just fine at 4 slots. Plus, I already pointed out the gameplay reason for making them four slots.

GoodGuyEd, please stop harping on about realism being bad since I never said anything about realism.

[Gorlom]

GoodGuyEd, please stop harping on about realism being bad since I never said anything about realism.

I don't think he is responding to you ElTee. Do you have Hwp on ignore by any chance and that is why you can't see who GGE is talking too?

[GoodGuyEddy]

GoodGuyEd, please stop harping on about realism being bad since I never said anything about realism.

Realism isn't bad, too much realism is. An advanced military will allways crush a military force that is lagging behind by centuries. How about this realistic scenario. So:

Aliens arrive, attack with everything they got, the 70's military technology is helpless against them, and you lose on day 1-7. FUN!

[IceVamp]

Neither me nor any member of my squad have ever been issued a sidearm in my 8 years of service, regardless of which weapon they were assigned. Pistols were assigned when assault rifles were too cumbersome or..well..overkill (military police, traffic control and the like)

Maybe some special force (capable) units would but, certainly not regular troops.

I'm issued a pistol, for when I carry the recoilless rifle. Crawling around with that is hard enough, without having to worry about my HK as well.

Xenonauts are not regular troops.

Other than that, I agree. I wouldn't mind a leg slot for soldiers for side arms, but it's not exactly critical. But yes, another option would be to make it a tad smaller.