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UFOs & Being Horrible (part 2)


Chris

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OK. I've read the entire last thread on the proposed new system and I'm going to look at the two-part missions again. There may be other solutions to the issue, perhaps shrinking the larger UFOs or coming up with better shapes for them for the tiles. Zzz1010 has some good shapes for some of the awkward UFOs so maybe I'll look at them in more detail. It may be possible to get the Landing Ship and Cruiser in the maps using the current method after all.

Just to be clear though - in no circumstances will the outer hulls of the UFOs be destructible. The tiles just can't work that way with the paintover system we use, even if we continue using the current one.

Also, no promises. If the two-part solution has to be used, it has to be used.

EDIT: to inform the future discussion, these are the main issues:

1) The bigger UFOs are massive. This is relatively easy to remedy, simply by scaling them down a bit (which I'm happy to do if the other issues are fixed up). However, in the current form there's basically no point having a large UFO crash site with an exterior because the exterior would just be the UFO hull rather than buildings or terrain etc. Hence the two-parter idea in the first place.

2) The UFO shapes are rounded, which means it is hard to get a decent sized interior out of them if unless the UFO is large as the space is frequently wasted. I've seen a few of zzz1010's concepts and there might be room for improvement here (his cruiser in particular has quite an intelligent rectangular lower level space that hadn't occurred to me), but we'll see. This causes #1.

3) To be properly interactive, the UFO walls have to be cut into 1 tile slices and then painstakingly aligned in the game. This is incredibly labor intensive, and to paint them over so they are consistent with the other terrain tiles is also expensive. To paint them over in a wal that would allow them to be destructible (ie. so they have all sides of the tile painted rather than just the top) would be prohibitively expensive.

Also, the 3D model has to be exported as a layered Photoshop PSD file with every tile on a seperate layer, else it's not possible to slice the tiles correctly, so just modelling up the UFOs isn't enough if the 3D program does not support this.

4) Randomisation of the UFO interior is not impossible in the current system, but it is much harder than in the proposed system.

5) Additional hull breaches are not impossible in the current system, but they are MUCH harder than in the proposed system.

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That's the thing I'm most actively considering. It's likely the Light Scout will be reduced to not being enterable in either case as it's too small as is, but that still leaves the Scout and Corvette (and possibly the Landing Ship) to play with. I'm undecided anyway. The factors are:

1) The Scout is a bloody stupid shape. If we redo it I can make it two slightly larger rooms that will be easier to see into as they won't have the walls around them, and link them with teleporters, as well as having alternate entry points (though I guess that's not needed as there's aready three doors).

2) We'll probably have to redo the floor of the Corvette if we leave it, and add in some custom-made internal walls. That's not a big thing but it means there won't be as much variation for the Corvette as for the larger UFOs.

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I'll recap my opinion since this is new thread:

I like idea of small ufos being inaccessible, medium as they are in game and large ones to have two parter missions.

I don't want large ufos to be scaled down because I like my big ass ufos as ridicolously gigantic. It creates nice feeling of awe to see something so huge in scale in comparison to something in smaller scale. If it results in too large mission, then just cut down size of inside mission by having ceilings collapsed and blocking access to everywhere or something.

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For me X-com is a game about decisions, and a huge portion of those decisions for me at least related to how one approaches a UFO. Reducing the number of entryways to a UFO drastically changes the course of each mission, simply because of how restrictive the idea is- no more using flying suits and HE charges to blow holes in the roof and rain lead terror? No more crash damage leading to massive hull breaches, tentatively guarded by greys?

To me anything that limits or reduces the number of ways one can play the game is a bad thing, and while I understand the technical issues that're being raised it doesn't seem like a decent trade-off; style over substance. In a game about choices, is reducing the number and variety of those choices ever a good thing?

tl;dr version: I am a dickhead and can be ignored.

Edited by ThreeJumps
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I for one dont mind at all not being able to open up breaches with explosives. But if extra breaches is a must?, cant additional entry points be something that the game can randomize in the hulls if the UFO is shot down? Or fixed?

And by the way arent the big ships that Zzz1010 made already "massive?" That "carrier" and Battleship would be huge on the map?

Are they supposed to being bigger? And then are there a good game play perspective on why ships should be soo friggin huge?

Are randomized interiors just gonna change whats in the ships? Power sources, navigation, generators ect? Or the very placement of the rooms? This would feel strange? Wouldnt you build the same class of battleship the same way? I would rather like a very thought out and tested interior, rather than a randomized one.

And if two parter comes anyway. My suggestion is the following: Have one map for exterior, not overly big. Fighting the troops sent out to stop you. Make the "massive" ship a big shade, its hull visable outside the map. Then the next part is one single map with the massive ship on. More like the big ships in Apocalypse. This way the objective would be obvious on the first map. Making missions connected in a good way. And then you could be free from problems with map size, make the ships as Humongous as you feel.

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come to think of it, the carrier Zzz1010 made is quite bloody big. I like it even more now :)

As for the UFO sizes issue, I think that we can definatley skip the light scout/fighters missions for the sake of having scouts/corvettes/heavy fighters/maybe landing ship as one part missions instead. As for the uber sized UFOs - better off if they could be one parters but if their's no other way then having them as 2 parters then its best at least to be able to see them as a static tile on the 1st part of each of their missions.

As for randomizing the interior of the big UFOs - it seems unnecessary to me, speaking from a strictly pragmatic point of view, if you make one good design of a space ship why not stick with it ? Especially if you plan on mass producing them for an interstellar effort to invade another civilized planet. Otherwise seems like a waste of time. Its not like the spaceship commanders have a starship interior design competition between them.

As for the breaching points - Why not have premade maps for points breached in the UFOs due to the combat/collision? Yes, its some serious work for the dedicated tile maker, but it could compensate (in my opinion) for the inability to damage the hull in anyway.

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Couple of questions on the system.

Does the game support rectangular maps?

You could then use a 50x80 map rather than having to use an 80x80 or larger for a 50x50 UFO.

Landed craft would almost always be approached from whichever direction the main entry is on but crashed ones could be approached from a random side with breaches placed dependent on the random level chosen.

Can the walls be set as individual submaps on the larger ships?

If they can then you could place the walls around internal submaps (on the level builder) and keep randomisation for the internals.

You could also have multiple breached versions so that they are also randomly selected each time.

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For those who want alternate means of entry: If blowing extra holes in the hull is out as Chris has said, why not just have a technology that decodes the alien transporters? Once you develop this tech each Xenonaut carries a "key" device that activates the aliens transporter and "beams" the Xenonaut into the closest transporter pad (or for more excitement it beams the Xenonaut to ANY transporter pad i.e. it's random.) This seem like a good solution to the issue to me.

Edited by StellarRat
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What about making the Chinook land on/in a launch-platform/hangar bay for the ship's escort/alien landing craft. Bear with me for this. Have the mission take inspiration from BF2142's titans or Starwars battlefront's spaceship battles.

Lore Justification

The alien ships are enormous but even the cruisers are better in the air than touching down and trying to take off again. Kind of like an aircraft carrier or a battleship. They dock to repair and rearm but for the most part they stay at sea, using landing craft, aircraft etc to physically assault the position. They already have had to be refitted to deal with earth's atmosphere so it makes sense that it isn't ideal for the larger ships to touch down on ground where they are potentially more vulnerable.

"Landed" craft would then be hovering in place district 9 style (with engines on idle), or they have good reason to land (like to remove a funding nation)

When one of these is shot down, the easiest way to access it is to land the Chinook on the actual ship itself and to gain entry by either

a)breaching through a launch pad/hangar entrance or

b)through tears in the hull acquired during the air battle

Defensive weapons that could potentially damage the Chinook are destroyed/disabled during the crash, destroyed during the air battle or targeted by the squadron afterwards to prepare for landing, or their fire arcs are simply circumnavigated by the Chinook on approach.

What this allows

-We can still breach the ufo without needing a 2 part mission. Depending on feasibility, you could still even have additional breach options through damage from the air-battle or damage from the crash. (the ufo hit nose first and the impact stresses tore holes in the hull. Or maybe it broke open titanic style over a mountain ridge). This can allow for aliens to begin on the surface of the ship, coming out to meet you, followed by your breaching through the chokepoint doorway (airlock).

-you can see the whole ship on the map. it is the map. the pretty art can be seen in the tactical view even if you cant walk over the whole thing

-the maps can give the feel of an enormous ship but still keep maps within a reasonable play size by saying that you are landing near to the important systems, avoiding the problems with scale breaches. Imagine fighting up through the crew quarters (hundreds of xenos) of an actual battleship with a squad of 10 guys. A suicide mission at best.

However, if you land and breach near to the important systems, you could theoretically seal doors off from the rest of the ship, cut off life support, contain the aliens well enough to harvest what you want/can from the ship before detonating the remainder.

Problems

-Randomization would be interesting to work around. You could potentially randomize the ship interiors but that doesnt really fit mass production, oh well.

-claustraphobia. too much indoor gameplay, especially as you take these ships down more often later on in the game. environments get stale. no idea how to deal with this. Maybe in some ships your breaching path passes through a mockup of earth for practice encounters. houses and fields on the inside of the ship...

Well food for thought. Oh, and first post:)

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I do like the preposed changes. I've looked in the game files a couple of times and seen the ufos (and the weapons required to 'land' them) and I do like the preposed system. Also, the 1st research topic said something about aircraft carrier sized ufos and it'd make since to do them in multiple parts just because the size of the maps they'd need. Those are just some of my thoughts and opinions.

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Having 2 parters for big UFOs only might be worth it. Chris is right about consistency being important but being "inconsistent" in this case might not be so jarring and people who are going to play this in the first place should be able to wrap their heads around the idea.

If the large UFOs are only partially visible on the map that very sense of scale would already set them apart and make them stand out as being "special".

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Personnally, I really like your idea Ductape for how the levels would function and I think I have a couple thoughts that might alleviate your concern about claustrophobia. First, organic sections of the ship could exist like the farms in alien bases in XCOM. These aliens live in their ships, how are they getting food, reproducing, etc.? With maps working the way they do, the ships could be designed such that they convey a secondary role in the fleet that can range from food production centers (farms and alien butchering centers to be used on abductees) to manufacturing centers (lots of machinery and storage facilities). This would provide some of the organic feel that would be missing from outdoor missions.

Your idea of selecting entry points really reminds me of Shadow Watch which led to some interesting strategies. To make the most of that system, it would be nice to be able to research technologies that would give you information of the internals of the ship. For example, you could research an Alenium Detector technology which would tell you where the engines are which would inform your choice of where to breach at. Better yet, if you are given the option of splitting your teams and reasons to move to certain objectives quickly. Some inspiration for this could be borrowed from Space Hulk.

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-the maps can give the feel of an enormous ship but still keep maps within a reasonable play size by saying that you are landing near to the important systems, avoiding the problems with scale breaches. Imagine fighting up through the crew quarters (hundreds of xenos) of an actual battleship with a squad of 10 guys. A suicide mission at best.

However, if you land and breach near to the important systems, you could theoretically seal doors off from the rest of the ship, cut off life support, contain the aliens well enough to harvest what you want/can from the ship before detonating the remainder.

Ok. I dont like this idea. Dont get me wrong, its a good solution! But i dont like the way it plays out. Because i wanna go in my ships and, kill them all, and secure them for myself. 14 men against 1400 and sealing sections of? Sounds like a end mission to me. Not the way every big ufo mission plays out.

Have we even discussed the size of the ships? To me it seems the size have gotten too large. Why should they bee so big? It doesn't feel fun from a gameplay point of view. This idea sound exactly like the cruise ships from TFTD, albeit with and UFO interior otherwise the same. And they were too big, too boring and time consuming.

I would suggest changing shape and size first. Make them more compatible with the tile system. There are obviously a middle ground between flying phenomena of beautiful shapes and "pancake stacks" as has been shown.

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I would suggest changing shape and size first. Make them more compatible with the tile system. There are obviously a middle ground between flying phenomena of beautiful shapes and "pancake stacks" as has been shown.

A thousand times this! The ships look beautiful, for sure, but I know I'd rather have an ugly, amazing game than a flawed beautiful game.

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"Landed" craft would then be hovering in place district 9 style (with engines on idle), or they have good reason to land (like to remove a funding nation)

I like this a lot, but it begs for some kind of scene cut, at least 1 where we see these ships in a movie when they start appearing, what ever happened to the intro cutscene in the style of Homeworld that was proposed on kickstarter?

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Sorry if it become annoying. Or looks like criticism. Its not a suggestion, just attempt to make it more similar to art( I mean existed ingame picture). Tile shapes is very close to existed, map the same - 20x15. Its removing main scout feature - two separated zones, but it not big lost I think. Main fault of my design - how to find door.

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surely, it can be done this way

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Or leave all four, but i think it will be less intresting

make the connection corrider a little tighter like maybe 1 tile.

for me it will be too tight. For usfulness and for look. Two may be will be enough, but it's not very suitable from map point.

Edited by zzz1010
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