Xenonauts vs Xcom Enemy Unknown

[Gorlom]

They would probably make less money if they didn't have the X-COM name.There would be less hype and i would prefer that as much people as possible become familiar with the X-Com formula. Because i like the idea of fighting off aliens by researching their tech. And want more to be made.

I'm kind of torn about the name. sure it's good that a TBS x-com like is selling. It's good that those interested in the hardcore X-com like experience is looking toward indie/other games like Xenonauts.

I'm just hoping that there aren't too many loud complaints so that publishers only remember the whine and don't dare risk betting on other x-com likes.

PS. why is it named Enemy Unknown btw? That bit was probably a bit too much since they weren't intending to stick that close to the original..

[HWP]

PS. why is it named Enemy Unknown btw? That bit was probably a bit too much since they weren't intending to stick that close to the original..

Probably wanted to one or more of:

1) Keep pretending it's just a remake, for anyone who played the original

2) Confuse any (inevitably unfavorable) comparisons with X-COM

3) Capitalize on the name to the max

[Harmonica]

Ultimately the devs wanted to have their cake and eat it. They're original X-COM fans so they wanted to do a remake, but they want to also produce a game that will sell lots and make them loads of money. Trouble is I don't think that kind of half-way house approach is possible with this game. You go big or you go home. Make your true-to-the-original-ethos remake or make a great modern TBS. Most of you are being very fair in evaluating it as 'a good game on its own terms', but I think it could have been a better game had it not used the X-COM license and (some of) the gameplay mechanics/structure. And even on its own terms all the endless handholding, speechifying, dumb action movie dialogue and slick but empty menus are really sub-par.

If you're a total newcomer to the TBS genre and you're playing XCOM EU, the whole heritage of the title will go over your head. Or at best you'll have heard of it but it won't make any difference as far as your enjoyment goes (until you dig out the originals...). If you're a fan of the series it's absolutely certain you'll make comparisons and all the flashy visuals in the world and high production values can't make up for what they've taken away. All the things people here have mentioned, and all things that are immediately obvious and pretty much stay obvious throughout playing it. It ain't X-COM so why bother using the name.

When I heard Firaxis were doing it I thought it was in safe hands but it seems like it's the Firaxis B or C team with randoms from 2K that got tasked with this one. Firaxis isn't the name it used to be unless they're doing Civ.

I'll also add that for someone who grew up with PC and has played consoles alongside them, the idea that consoles always represent dumbing down is a myth. Good gamers playing on all platforms want complicated, deep games. The only thing that usually gets vastly simplified or kidified on consoles is the control system, and you can definitely see it in XCOM. I tried it on PC with a gamepad and it actually feels more intuitive to play like that and that just makes me despair. X-COM should be hallowed keyboard and mouse territory. I don't even think XCOM EU is complicated enough for either console or PC gamers, really. Flashy and thrilling occasionally, maybe, but also by the numbers brain=off territory.

Edited October 14, 2012 by Harmonica

[tiggerwof]

Name ONE console game that either matches or beats its PC counterpart in scope/difficulty/mods/patches etc. Just the fact a pc has more horsepower to run complex games (saves and loading screens faster, cut scenes smoother, etc)

[sectoid]

hi all, i read a tips in xcom-eu, can't really understand whats that mean, can anyone put in more layman words to me? thanks!

---> Tips: grenades and rockets will render unusable any artifacts other than corpses.

[sectoid]

Good gamers playing on all platforms want complicated, deep games.

i still remember the manual of 1994 UFO:EU not even telling me what ammo goes to what weapon, and i ended up ordering interceptor's cannon round in hope to replenish my soldier's heavy cannon...

and i have no idea what electro-flare does, until i threw it in the night mission...

the game is so deep even we have to take on the role of inventory admin, no more room to store one additional pistol clip and it really means it!

hahaha.... the good-o-days!

[XenoMask]

Hmm, just a question, what do you guys think about other TBS than xcom games?

Also, how can game at same time be XCOM for non hardcore gamers and too hard? I mean seriously, there were complains about both .-.

[HWP]

Hmm, just a question, what do you guys think about other TBS than xcom games?

JA, AOW, MOO2, etc, a lot of fine games there with tactical components (XCOM isn't really a pure TBS).

Also, how can game at same time be XCOM for non hardcore gamers and too hard?

You can always crank up the difficulty.

Edited October 14, 2012 by HWP

[Par'Gellen]

Good question.

I kind of fall in the middle area. The first couple of times I played I got my butt handed to me in short order. It didn't take long to figure out what to do though depending on the situation. Although sometimes I still get angry at all the cheating the aliens get to do during my turn. That's just lame-o lame-a-thon lame-sticks with lame sauce on top.

I've also played several other TBS style games and usually enjoy them a lot more than the RTS offerings. I like to take my time and think about what I'm doing rather than just zerg rush. Although I do really like Starcraft 1 & 2

[Shuichi Niwa]

Also, how can game at same time be XCOM for non hardcore gamers and too hard? I mean seriously, there were complains about both .-.

It's a bit hard, but not strategy, just because it's cheap. Battle is broken and too random, thu nonsense spotting alien thing, panic too unbalance [utterly nonsense devastating in the early game and almost non-existent late game] etc... Heck, I still sometime got trashed in such a way that I want to just break the disk physically [lucky I buy a digital version] >.>

About TBS, I'm a hardcore Japanese TBS gamer ^^ I have play almost all of the TBS gems Japan offered the world [Langrisser, Fire Emblem, SRW, etc...]. Western TBS are nice too but they usually not only about combat so I tend to think of them as role-playing and such. For example, JA still feels like a RPG for me

Edited October 14, 2012 by Shuichi Niwa

[XenoMask]

@HWP: Hmm, so nothing from 21th century?

And hey, someone complained about game mechanics being too hard while complaining about hardcore gamers Considering that hardcore gamers are usually defined by themselves as playing "challenging" games, its kind of confusing.

@Par'Gellen: What difficulty? By cheating I assume you mean the cover thing?

And yeah, I too prefer TBS to RTS. Mainly because RTS are mainly about getting as much resources as possible to overwhelm your enemy before they overwhelm you.

@Shuichi Niwa: Huh, someone else who knows SRPG exists. Anyway, elaborate? Are you sure its because its too random or impossible to play or because you aren't good enough? Though to be honest, game seems like of roguelikes in that sense that while you can win with skill, it depends on luck how easy or hard game is while original game CAN have extreme moments of unluckiness(first ufo ever being base mission ufo) its more stable.

Edited October 14, 2012 by XenoMask

[Shuichi Niwa]

Enjoy a challenge does not mean having to feel good about a stupid gameplay mechanic T_T If it's good and it's hard, it's heaven. But it's BAD and hard because of illogical design ? Frustrating instead...

@XenoMask : my skill in TBS is at least so-so ^^ However the new XEU is frustrating because even with skills you still get screwed over stupid things. I have failed to destroy UFO Battleship 2 times in the current playthrough because they spawn at location where I don't have one of my 2 FireStorm there. And I can't have 5 FireStorm to put on in every continent without my soldiers going out naked to combat >.>

About the randomness of the battle. It's like this. Almost all of your guys have finished their turns. The alst guy go to a safe place not very far for cover. And then, voila, he saw 3 muton from some distance away. Instantly those Muton begin their cutscene and then moving running for cover. Ironically the nearest cover for them are places about 5-6 spaces away from my soldier. So all 3 of them run there. And then in the following Alien Turn raped the hell out of him. No chance to react or do something. AT ALL.

And I don't like the game it makes that to avoid those kind of stupid situation you have to play like a chicken, going 4-5 space at a times and never, EVER going without your full squadron... There's just no strategy in that. Simply put, the whole alien get a free moving action whenever you see them is BS.

Edited October 14, 2012 by Shuichi Niwa

[XenoMask]

Umm, elaborate on what makes it illogical?

[Dowly]

It's a bit hard, but not strategy, just because it's cheap. Battle is broken and too random, thu nonsense spotting alien thing, panic too unbalance [utterly nonsense devastating in the early game and almost non-existent late game] etc... Heck, I still sometime got trashed in such a way that I want to just break the disk physically [lucky I buy a digital version] >.>

Yep, I stopped playing on classic because I kept losing not because of my mistakes, but because the game completely screwed me over.

Like this one UFO site, my squad of five had no problems killing the first 6 aliens I encountered. Then, three Mutons appeared. I fought them for six turns and I couldn't hit them at all (40-60% shots), yet they managed hits with every shot and completely wiped me.

[XenoMask]

Oh, you guys are talking about RNG?

Hmm, yeah, since original game's mechanic is decided by bullet deviation, you have slightly better chances to survive. Since in this game its just dice roll you can get really unlucky, plus on classic enemies have buffed up aim and critical chance... So on classic its about making them unable to hit you or kill them before they kill you.

It can be rather frustrating to watch to see your squad getting hit by thinmen all the time. I learned that when you see one group of enemies, whatever you do, DON'T move forward because you might trigger another group of them.(sometimes that doesn't help because not all enemies camp.. They seem to camp less more game goes on =/)

On maps were there are less camping enemies it becomes rather hellish, I had large ufo mission where there were two mutons, when I was trying to kill them there came two drones, one cyber discs and three floaters. I was sad that mutons had killed my heavy one turn before Another thing, you should have always two heavies just in case...

Edited October 14, 2012 by XenoMask

[Shuichi Niwa]

Hmm, yeah, since original game's mechanic is decided by bullet deviation, you have slightly better chances to survive. Since in this game its just dice roll you can get really unlucky, plus on classic enemies have buffed up aim and critical chance... So on classic its about making them unable to hit you or kill them before they kill you.

The LOS system and attack calculation / cover is stupidly nonsense and full of bugs in this game so "make them unable to hit you" or "kill them before they kill you" is only a hopeful thought, because of the randomness and illogical things. Shooting through a wall, through something you would normally think impossible... After my first playthrough I got used to what the game "think" and can avoid dieing because of their stupid "physics". However, it's still frustrating.

Edited October 14, 2012 by Shuichi Niwa

[XenoMask]

Why is it stupid? Because you keep missing and getting hit?

Bugs are annoying though, but nothing major so far. i even had beneficial bug that allowed me to use soldiers that were KIA.

Ah, you edited post instead of posting a new one. Anyway, I've never really hard problem of getting shot through wall, though I've managed to shoot aliens through wall myself. Lucky me I guess.. Anyway, I don't really have same problem with missing all the time and getting hit all the time considering thats what happens to me in JA(both first one and second one) or first two Fallout games. So yeah, I have long experience of getting frustrated at missing all the time while enemy having much better accuracy that I don't actually see it as an issue ^^;

Edited October 14, 2012 by XenoMask

[Shuichi Niwa]

Stupid because it is impossible according to physics and logic for an alien to shoot you through 2 walls without damaging them, and that's why you thought you were safe. Also stupid because the LOS is fuked up so bad there are times you are sure you can SEE them, but the game blinded you and so wasting a precious turn...

Those are the kind if things that make me name them stupid.

And btw, where did you read in ANY my posts that say "keep missing and getting hit" ? I'm used to TBS and will never use the randomness of the battle result as a cause to insult the game system >.>

Anyway, I don't really have same problem with missing all the time and getting hit all the time considering thats what happens to me in JA(both first one and second one) or first two Fallout games. So yeah, I have long experience of getting frustrated at missing all the time while enemy having much better accuracy that I don't actually see it as an issue ^^;

Yeah, me too. That's why I don't mention it.

Btw, my friend play without Ironman and find out something funny. He save the game in combat and then testing. If the first shot hit, it will always hit and if it miss, it will always miss. Even if it's a different shot made from a different shooter with different percentage.

Edited October 14, 2012 by Shuichi Niwa

[XenoMask]

Ah okay .-. So all your problems are with bugs? Those are something that will be eventually fixed, apparently that was case with Civ IV and V, but for now I can say that you have had pretty crappy luck. But then again, thats with modern pc games on release, they seem to be random bug wise for everyone. And LOS, but I didn't really get what you mean with seeing them but game not allowing you to shoot because you can't shoot unless your units can see them...

(I've mainly had graphical glitches, though there was one very crappy glitch where my hover shiv was without a weapon...)

[Shuichi Niwa]

And LOS, but I didn't really get what you mean with seeing them but game not allowing you to shoot because you can't shoot unless your units can see them...

I meant looking at it, physically and logically you CAN see them. But the LOS is so fuked up the game say you don't see them and thus don't allow you to shoot...

What I mean is I can see them, my unit can see them. But the game think we don't. End of problem, and possibly end of my soldier's life, too. Because while he can't see the alien, it sometime got a third eye and can see + shooting at him.

Ah okay .-. So all your problems are with bugs?

No, the alien free move are not bugs T_T

[HWP]

@HWP: Hmm, so nothing from 21th century?

I thought they are like magnetic tape drives. Still produced in this century, but... name one model without looking it up.

Actually wait, I think AOW2 is actually from this century.

Then there's Civ that they keep making new installments of.

As for difficulty, I like realistic difficulty. I abhor enemy bullet sponges as much as PC bullet sponge. Except for the few times when such behavior is warranted (not merely explained away).

[XenoMask]

I meant looking at it, physically and logically you CAN see them. But the LOS is so fuked up the game say you don't see them and thus don't allow you to shoot...

What I mean is I can see them, my unit can see them. But the game think we don't. End of problem, and possibly end of my soldier's life, too. Because while he can't see the alien, it sometime got a third eye and can see + shooting at him.

No, the alien free move are not bugs T_T

Hmm, that hasn't really happened to me, so I can't speak of that =/ Maybe its another bug or maybe LOS system needs to be explained better.

Alien free move is to get aliens into cover, but it doesn't really make sense for aliens to always have that cutscene when they walk to you. Good thing about is that when it happens on aliens' turn, they never attack you or overwatch or anything. Anyway, I find it regrettable that it has to be in game, but I don't really mind it as it hasn't screwed up me too much. Except with chrysalids, because seriously, chrysalid's ai makes them walk to as close to you as possible so if you trigger them on your turn you are screwed.

@HWP: Huh, define realistic difficulty? I mean, is that like both sides have same chances or like "Medium" difficulty?

[Par'Gellen]

@Par'Gellen: What difficulty? By cheating I assume you mean the cover thing?

Classic and yes.

It's especially lame when it's with berserkers or chryssalids. On several occasions I've had my last surviving guy take one step to enter cover while fighting other aliens and activate one berserker that was just out of range. This usually results in the berserker running directly up to my guy's face from 30 yards away on my own turn. My only options are to shoot at one of the aliens I'm already fighting, shoot at the berserker, or run. None of which is going to help me at all. Can't 1-hit the berserker so shooting him is pointless, shooting at the aliens might kill one of them but I can kiss my guy goodbye guaranteed afterward, and retreating means my guy dies the next round because the berserker can run a lot farther than I can (they have a ridiculous range I guess to make up for being melee only units) and I just used my "blue move" to move a single step into cover trying to make use of the cover mechanic the game is based around.

That kind of thing is enough to make a person stop playing because at that point it's not about the game being hard but rather about the player feeling cheated. I don't mind losing a guy or even an entire squad if that's the way the battle goes but the scenario I listed above is just like the game saying "You know what? I've decided you lose a guy. Nothing you can do about it. Go cry please."

[HWP]

@HWP: Huh, define realistic difficulty? I mean, is that like both sides have same chances or like "Medium" difficulty?

It's when the desired difficulty is achieved through realistic means, not artificial limitations or boosts that make no sense otherwise.

[Par'Gellen]

It's when the desired difficulty is achieved through realistic means, not artificial limitations or boosts that make no sense otherwise.

This too.

If the aliens were actually smarter or had different/more abilities on higher difficulties it would be a lot less frustrating. Giving them aim and damage boosts and making panic increase faster then calling it the next difficulty level is just lazy in my opinion. This is also another reason why (tying in with my reply to XenoMask in the another thread) I don't see much replay value in the game.