MyThos Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Very nice review that mirrors my feelings about the whole XCOM vs X.-COM debate: http://www.quartertothree.com/fp/2012/10/16/the-xcom-enemy-unknown-review-that-took-18-years-to-write/ I do kind of wish I was back in 94 right now, when I just got introduced to UFO: Enemy Unknown ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmonica Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) That's an amusing way of writing the article. And he hits the right notes. The same way that Alec Meer hits the right notes in his assessment (even though I tend to disagree with both of them). They both can't help but reference the past, refer to the previous game with affection, and yet make every effort to try and keep things separate as much as possible. Tom mentions the IGN article he wrote of the key features of X-COM, saying they are still present in XCOM ergo it's a fine remake/update/translation/whatever. If you agree with his 'key features', then you might agree that XCOM is a good remake. If not, well... Another thing is how a lot of the response to pieces like that is along the lines of 'I wish commentators would review XCOM as XCOM and leave aside the baggage of the past'. I would respond to that by saying that, if Firaxis had left behind that baggage then I am sure reviewers would also have no problem doing it! Don't want to be judged by absolute classics, don't take the name and the license and remake them, end of. Edited October 17, 2012 by Harmonica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Par'Gellen Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 The one thing that I've noticed over and over especially in favorable reviews of XCOM is the need to tell me what year it is and how "gaming has changed". I find that a pretty weak argument for any reason. Is it supposed to make me suddenly sit back and say "Oh my god! I didn't realize it was 2012! Holy crap that makes this game AWESOME!" I just don't understand that argument in support of the game and it's lack of depth. How does that make it a great game? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWP Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Well, it's like how when you stumble into a Ford dealership and ask them to sell you an affordable 12-second, 450 bhp, 5-seat convertible, and they tell you ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VolNation Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 The one thing that I've noticed over and over especially in favorable reviews of XCOM is the need to tell me what year it is and how "gaming has changed". I find that a pretty weak argument for any reason. Is it supposed to make me suddenly sit back and say "Oh my god! I didn't realize it was 2012! Holy crap that makes this game AWESOME!"I just don't understand that argument in support of the game and it's lack of depth. How does that make it a great game? The argument is a reminder that XC:EU isn't a clone of XCOM: UFO Defense. It was never intended to be a remake of the original. They borrowed the idea, names, and did their own thing. If you compare it to the original, of course you will be disappointed. It was never designed to replicate the original. On its own merits, I find it fun and so do many people. If you don't, that is totally okay. But comparing it to the original isn't going to get you far. It wasn't intended to be a clone like so many want to believe. That being said, I am also excited about Xenonauts. It is more or less supposed to replicate UFO Defense and that seems to be what so many people want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Par'Gellen Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) Oh I understand what you are saying but the date argument is used in many reviews as a fallback response. Almost like they are apologizing for the game or something. It sort of comes across to me like they're talking about a slow kid and saying things like "Well he was kicked in the head by a horse when he was little... So, you know... *shrug* He's a great kid though." Sure he may be a great kid but he's not going to get a PH.D. any time soon. I just don't get it... Am I supposed to think XCOM: EU is a great game because I feel sorry for it? Edited October 17, 2012 by Par'Gellen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWP Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Well, if I tell you "I find my baby's poop to smell relatively good... I mean, good for poop, that is" - what conclusion would you draw? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Par'Gellen Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Well, if I tell you "I find my baby's poop to smell relatively good... I mean, good for poop, that is" - what conclusion would you draw?AAAHAHAHA! You sir just won the Internet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoMask Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I just don't understand that argument in support of the game and it's lack of depth. How does that make it a great game? I can't really accept your reasons for believing it lacks depth though Because if less inventory option means less debth then I would have to believe that chess/board games and Fire Emblem and other SRPG are shallow games. Also, even if I would believe you in that game doesn't have deep strategical choices, more complex =/= automatically more better as simpler =/= automatically worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Par'Gellen Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Well to me it lacks depth because it feels shallow. If you don't feel it also then I can't explain it to you. There just doesn't feel like a lot of game under the graphics. Your opinion may differ Edit: It is completely possible to make a game more complex and less complicated at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nachtnebel Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I can't really accept your reasons for believing it lacks depth though Because if less inventory option means less debth then I would have to believe that chess/board games and Fire Emblem and other SRPG are shallow games.Also, even if I would believe you in that game doesn't have deep strategical choices, more complex =/= automatically more better as simpler =/= automatically worse. XCom EU in fact lacks depth. The strategical layer is almost non-existent besides the graphical interface. Aliens just appear randomly and start attacks that are neither connected to each other nor to a bigger plan. Basically all you do is hit the "Scan for Activities" button and wait until you next mission pops up. The ant farm is nice, but also rather pointless. You don't need to build labs or workshops cause you get engineers and scientists as mission rewards and they all just fit fine into the one lab and workshop you start with. So you end up building nothing else but power generators, satellite uplinks and all the facilities that you need to complete the story. The loadout system is the next letdown. Your soldiers are mostly restricted to only one type of weapon, which is connected to their randomly determined class. There is not much choice what to equip in the armor slot and the main weapon as well as the sidearm slot are predetermined. Only the accessory slot offers a little bit of freedom. The tactical layer is a little bit better, but still rather shallow compared to what a real turn based tactical game should look like. They got rid of some math by removing the TU system, but they also removed a lot of tactical options. Now it basically all comes down to move, shoot and overwatch. You don't get to spend more TUs to increase your hit chances, there are no more firing options and you also can't fire a weapon twice per tun unless your soldier has learned a certain skill. In my book, the tactical combat feels either like trapshooting, if you dominate the aliens, our all you do is turtling. The maps are often too small to flank your enemies so it all comes down to a few choke points were you can set up traps. And aliens also don't roam the map anymore, their are just some random spawns where they wait for you to spot them, and once you did, they get their extra movement and run into cover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Pancakes Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 And aliens also don't roam the map anymore, their are just some random spawns where they wait for you to spot them, and once you did, they get their extra movement and run into cover. Actually they move around a "little" bit (read almost not at all). I know this since I've seen a few times where they just "happen" to expend their moves walking into my view range and getting that stupid extra turn after the "OH SH*T! ALIENZ!" cinematic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmonica Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) They could have kept the specifically classed soldiers, but let you choose what class you wanted them to train under. Then the soldiers might gradually improve their stats during training, and if they make it out of training alive then they become a proper 'assault' or whatever. That for me is a proper use of a more simplistic mechanic (compared to skilling soldiers yourself as in the classic game). Edited October 18, 2012 by Harmonica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrashMan Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Actually they move around a "little" bit (read almost not at all). I know this since I've seen a few times where they just "happen" to expend their moves walking into my view range and getting that stupid extra turn after the "OH SH*T! ALIENZ!" cinematic. I have seen the aliens do 3 turns woths of movement/action...IN ONE TURN. I've seen muttons use Blood Call to call other muttons. So out of the back of the map 3 more muttons come. Then they do their chest pounding animation and move again. Moving to flank me, going into cover. And then it's their turn and they move AGAIN. The frakkers did 3 turns in one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoMask Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) I really hate it when people use arguments that apply for original game as well I mean, in original game there WASN'T alien "bigger plan", just rate of percents at which ufos spawn to do what missions which change each month. If they succeed in their "missions" then you get penalty score. Thats it, they don't get any benefits from research or anything. Really, only difference in that matter is that in original you get ufos way more often since you can see them instant they go near you while in remake its matter of luck.(there was disabled feature with ability to prevent terror ships and abduction ships doing their missions that can be enabled with modding so apparently ufos do still exist but you just can't see them. Hard to tell since you can't see them =P) Also, your arguments are about "More complicated = deeper". Also, some of them DO patrol which makes it especially painful because if you don't have heavy, 9 aliens in same spot is total overkill for them. Yes, that has happeend, I wasn't moving at all just trying to kill two mutons only for cyberdiscs and drones and floater to come near the ufo. (Also, in original game aliens didn't move until turn 20 because ai wasn't complex enough to allow them to find you, so they only went after you after they saw you.(even then, they might have just stayed on same spot =P Hence the infamous final alien) So thats another complaint that applies to original too)) Seriously, unless you mean it as critizication of what they could have improved from original game, don't use arguments that also apply to original game... @Par'Gellen: Isn't your edit what I basically said? .-. Well, I guess its not exactly the same thing I said, but mostly? Edited October 18, 2012 by XenoMask Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I just wiped a Classic Iron Man game because the last move of my turn spotted some Chryssalids on a terrror mission, and they used their free move to close the distance between them and my team, then used their turn to kill my soldiers and turn them into zombies (which promptly overwhelmed the rest of the team). Hence my irritated post on the soldier name thread I'm enjoying X-Com though, but it does feel a bit restrictive and random at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuichi Niwa Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 One really funny about XCOM EU that I have just realised is your enemy in the game is NOT the alien. It's the world. You lose too many countries and the world GO you. Other than that the alien do nothing to you. I have experience a full 2 months without any alien activity and the big spaceship they bring is still there because I'm too lazy to build the "KEY" structure to continue the story. Aliens do not attack your base or scare you. When I go to mission, it's not because I'm worry about the fate of the world but more about what the world's gonna do to me for revenge if i fail them. Absolutely fun ~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoMask Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) I don't really think its "restrictive" except unless you compare it directly to original, but yeah, it is random. I've compared it few time to roguelikes. Why? Because 1) Your starting conditions can heavily change your odds, for example whether you have easy access to steam in base or whether your world spawns with less panic levels.(or whether your first mission allows you to reduce panic of those panic 3 countries) 2) Missions themselves. Getting terror mission with chrysalids too early on can be painful especially if you are unable to kill those two(note: Early terror mission only seem to have two of them at beginning on first) and they manage to zombify(btw, chrysalids seem to have chance of whether they succeed in creating zombies) lots of civilians. 3) UFOs. Its kind of useful if you can get elerium from smaller ufos earlier than sooner, especially since early on large ufos can be too hard. But yeah, ufo landing and crashing missions are rare early on when you have little satellite coverage as its mainly up to luck early on. 4) In tactics lucky crits, this shouldn't really be problem if you are good at risk managing, like using hunker down when you know to and such. Of course there are still bad luck with getting into fight with 9 enemies at same time even if that seems to be rather rare... But yeah, game is ultimately about risk management and maximizing your chances. You are playing it wrong if you are trying to kill enemies with 50% shots even if that can work well sometimes. Either way, I think its good thing that its game you can actually lost just because things didn't go as planned, that in my opinion brings greater meaning to victories when you really have chance of losing. @Shuchi Niwa: Just to say something, I managed to beat classic with only having lost china because of bad luck. Panic management is completely possible when you know how to I say this because too many people don't realize that its possible, they just think game is bullcrapping on them.(though yeah, you have really hard time recovering if you lose abduction mission at bad time though it IS possible to recover. It just makes things further risky, I've learned from losing china by satellite getting shot down that it might be good idea to have spare satellites at time even though they are so expensive...) Anyway, I wonder what you'll reaction will be when you find out what goal of the aliens actually is. Probably gonna get more rage Since you are delaying final mission anyway, can't you just get blaster launcher from battleship? Edited October 18, 2012 by XenoMask Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuichi Niwa Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Please stop with your braging and thinking everyone are dumbfuk for not saying they can do that too. Did you EVER read any of my post that complain about the hardness of the game ? Or whining about "I can't do this, this game is impossible cheating, etc..." ??? no, that's because I don't consider it a problem. I just mention the things that the game do that goes wrong with me. Sorry for insulting you but really, I have about enough with you bragging about your great ability any and everywhere, in almost every posts you make T_T Just to remind you that please stop looking down on people. You may think you didn't, but the way I see it, you did. That's at least something to think about your way of expressing yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoMask Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Okay, but you said you are afraid of the world more than aliens? I thought that was supposed to mean you had more problems with panic than actual aliens. Besides, I didn't say said that YOU have complained difficulty, I said that "people" have. Its rather common thread in 2k and I've seen it few times here too where people complain about playing game "perfectly" yet still losing due to panic, in which case they assume fault is with game instead of themselves. Also, what great ability? .-. I don't have great abilities in anything, heck, I have self esteem low as its possible to be without being suicidal. Besides, I did say that game does require luck and skill, I'm not skillful enough to beat it without major luck early on as game is type of game that gets easier if you are able to get pass beginning... Also when i said that you are going to rage about aliens' purpose, I meant that its really really confusing exposition that can be understood in multiple ways which some people find lame. Heck, I'm still pretty confused about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuichi Niwa Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Sorry if I'm being annoyed, it's just when I was talking about how the game makes you feel the world is your enemy instead of the alien and how wrong the feeling was. Then someone come and say "oh if you are having difficult because of panic level they can be manage you know, I have just finished a game only losing one country, etc..." It's like you're only trying to brag about your successs instead of actually reading what I wrote. Nvm, I lost interest in talking about XCOM EU ~ You guys wouldn't see me talking about it anymore... One less whiner, cheers (*O*)/~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoMask Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I wasn't bragging really, I just meant to say that its possible =/ On that run I got lucky because one 1) It was another tutorial run(I sometimes enable tutorial because I want to try to make tutorial heavy to survive whole game and because it makes first month easier) 2) I got lucky and got world where starting panic level after tutorial ended up being at 1 or 2 AND steam near first access lift. 3) I got lucky in many things. Like that I got in situation where I could capture sectoid and thinman in same mission, thats really fricking hard... I also got lucky enough that my first terror mission was of the "Two chrysalids near your spawn, able to kill them before civilians can be zombified" and otherwise enough easy missions for me to able get better gear to be able to keep up with aliens getting harder. But yeah, sorry.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dowly Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I don't really think its "restrictive" except unless you compare it directly to original, but yeah, it is random. I've compared it few time to roguelikes. Oh come on now. You don't even have to compare it to the original to point out just how restrictive it is. Ok, maybe restrictive is not the best word to describe it, "artificially difficult" might be a better one. Especially the Geoscape portion of the game is just ridiculous. I can build buttload of interceptors, send out bunch of high-tech satellites and recruit up to 99 soldiers, but for some reason I can't build a second Sky Ranger. "That's XCOM, baby!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoMask Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 From gameplay perspective, you could say same about platformer games in situations where you can't jump high enough Which is why I consider that to be example of stuff where game is restrictive compared to original. But yeah, thats dumb since the explanation is "lack of resources" but I'm not myself really bothered by that even though its dumb. (And That's XCOM, Baby! refers to situations where RNG screws over you) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dowly Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 From gameplay perspective, you could say same about platformer games in situations where you can't jump high enough Err.. no. The platformer character just simply can't jump that high, much like you IRL can only jump so high. XCOM:EU(may its name be forever cursed) on the other hand offers no logical explanation for the lack of second Sky Ranger. (And That's XCOM, Baby! refers to situations where RNG screws over you) I find it more suitable (and ironic) to be used when there is something negative to say about XCOM:EU(may its name be forever cursed). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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