V24 air combat: Why the torpedo is king

[Twigg]

I have attached a strategy layer save from my v24 save on day 300, roughly 2 weeks before I lost via orbital strike. I hope the save helps contextualize the points I will make about the game in it's current state, particularly the air game. I started this campaign with the test out the viability of shields/pistols and aircraft guns and see if using them enabled fun new playstyles. 

Let's start with shields and pistols, this was a failure imo. In short I don't think they are a viable option in the current version of the game and need more consideration. Both the shield and pistol have their own issues that combined make for a poor toolset. The shield is heavy and can only 'block' shots from one side, even that is giving it the benefit of the doubt as with the change from X1 you can still take significant damage on first shot even if the shield is hit. This means that the cramped corridors of alien bases and UFOs where I would need the shield the most are still better suited to someone with a shotgun who at least provides some kind of threat. That brings me to the pistol. I am not sure what purpose it serves. The 15 round magazine and poor accuracy/range makes me think it should be a rapid fire weapon of some sort but it costs too much TU to fire. Not to mention getting close means that I am more liable to killed by alien fire on their own turn or block my other soldiers from killing the alien. This issue got worse as the campaign went on as there is such a long gap between regular shields and assault shields so you quickly feel like even the theoretical armor bonus of shield doesn't do much for your soldiers. Nearly every time I used a shield soldier I found myself wishing I had someone with a shotgun and within the first 100 days I wound up doing just that and never looked back.

On the aircraft guns side, the results were mixed. Tactically they are a great option and opened up the possibility of a single wing of fighters being able to take 2 air combats and win, which is certainly not an option with torpedoes. Fuel becomes the major limiting factor and you have to juggle your aircrafts health more which adds a little more depth and fun to the air combat (I am one of the crazy people who enjoys the air combat). The problem is on the strategy layer. The cost of outfitting your angel interceptors with laser cannons is double the cost (2x250k + 1x100k vs 2x150k) and nearly double the cost of the interceptor itself as the armor is necessary when you can only use your weapons in range of the UFO guns. That combined with the extra refit time from health and fuel means you are definitely cutting costs somewhere to make this tactical approach workable. This is made worse by the fact that torpedoes have less need for upgraded fighters so you have more leeway on when to upgrade your fleet vs going the guns approach. Put simply while most air combats were made easier by using guns over torpedoes that advantage was far outweighed by the strategy layer concessions I had to make for that approach.

 

I think both the pistol and shield need something. For the shield I was thinking an innate resistance to reaction fire (or maybe fire in general) to simulate the extra difficulty of hitting the few parts of a soldier not covered by the shield. For the pistol I think removing stun guns entirely and making the pistol able to accept both lethal and non-lethal ammunition would be a huge bump in it's flexibility and give it a real purpose. Each new pistol would give you an equivalent non lethal ammo option (ie stun laser rounds) which would help with scaling alien hp and the advanced stun research could allow rifles to have the same flexibility. 

I don't have a great solution for aircraft guns other than changing the cost, which isn't interesting imo. Another option is increasing the fire rate so you can kill UFOs much quicker with the same amount of ammunition which will help with the health issue but not fuel. You could boost the speed of fighters with guns which might help with the fuel from both reaching the target and the actual dogfighting. 

 

 

user_day_300_manual_save-122.json

[Komandos]

1 hour ago, Twigg said:

That brings me to the pistol. I am not sure what purpose it serves. The 15 round magazine and poor accuracy/range makes me think it should be a rapid fire weapon of some sort but it costs too much TU to fire.

A pistol cannot be more rapid-firing than a machine gun. The advantages of the pistol are only that it is easy to carry and hide on yourself, you can use it with one hand. As a weapon against aliens - a gun really doesn't fit. The gun only makes sense together with the shield.

[Chris]

I created a new thread for the air combat balance discussion, as it's a big topic and probably best to all have it in one place: https://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/index.php?/topic/27672-general-air-combat-balance-improvements/

For the pistols, in X1 they were usually considered surprisingly powerful because they hit just as hard as rifles and had similar TU costs, but just had a shorter range and no burst capacity. In X2 their damage output is 15-20% lower than an equivalent rifle but they're actually more TU-efficient per point of accuracy than a rifle is. So we could perhaps buff their damage a little but I'd be surprised if they were actually underpowered.

It seems more likely to me that the issue is the combat shields, because being able to carry a shield is why you're sacrificing range and burst mode on the pistol. In terms of protection angle / chance, the shield is actually significantly better than its equivalent in the first game because it now offers a 100% chance of protection in a full 180 degree arc (rather than in X1 where it offered 80% chance of protection at the front which dropped lower towards the sides). The only real change is that it now offers Armour rather than an extra pool of HP that entirely prevents damage from any source until it is destroyed. Which means that shields last longer, but each shot hitting it will usually still inflict some (albiet reduced) damage on the soldier holding it.

I think the change to Armour makes more sense in a lot of ways, but it seems like a lot of people are having negative gameplay experiences with it. Or do some people like it? Happy to listen to thoughts on the topic.

[alienman]

I personally prefer the old style of shield. With that you knew your man would able to tank a couple of shots before it get useless. I understand the idea with it lasting longer, but since your man takes damage, I don't know.

[Komandos]

2 hours ago, Chris said:

Happy to listen to thoughts on the topic.

The shield in reality is a piece of armor worn in the hands. In the role of armor, the shield looks more logical.

[Alienkiller]

Torpedo isn´t the King anymore. It´s similar to the Rockets with more Damage [about 50%]. I testet it with the latest Version 24.7B with an complete new Game.

Dosen´t matter if you use the Torpeodos (Standard, Alenium and higher) or Rockets (Standard, Alenium and higher) against big UFOs from the Abductor, Harvester, Bomber and Cruiser on. At the End you will need the Guns for the Final Damages or Final Blow!

I think you still play with V.22 or lesser, where Torpedo and Rockets were the King. With the latest Version 24.7B it´s completely different. If you look in the other Post, you will see what I mean.

[Twigg]

 

2 hours ago, Alienkiller said:

Torpedo isn´t the King anymore. It´s similar to the Rockets with more Damage [about 50%]. I testet it with the latest Version 24.7B with an complete new Game.

Dosen´t matter if you use the Torpeodos (Standard, Alenium and higher) or Rockets (Standard, Alenium and higher) against big UFOs from the Abductor, Harvester, Bomber and Cruiser on. At the End you will need the Guns for the Final Damages or Final Blow!

I don't think you are factoring in cost. I can build and equip 3 foxtrots with torpedoes for nearly the same price as 2 foxtrots with cannons and plating.

3x foxtrots 350k * 3 =  1.05m

6x torpedoes 150k * 6 = 900k 

Total 1.95m

2x foxtrots 350k * 2 =  700k

4x cannons 250k * 4 = 1m

2x plating 100k * 2 = 200k

Total 1.90m

Even battleships will go down to 6 torpedoes as long as you maintain technological parity with the aliens and since there is no upside to killing the escorts you can completely ignore them and focus all your fire on the main UFO.  At worst one of your fighters will be badly damaged by the escorts but since damage doesn't actually affect anything it is irrelevant as long as you make sure for the next air combat one of your other fighters takes the attention of the UFOs.

[Alienkiller]

That´s the old thinking from Xenonauts 1 or the older Beta-Versions from Xenonauts 2.

Like said I have played the newest Version the last Days and fight with the first hard medium / big Enemys with Escorts. And there the Escorts bring you down before you reach the Target. Dosen´t matter what you manually or the Automatic Fightsystem do.

[Chris]

1 hour ago, Alienkiller said:

That´s the old thinking from Xenonauts 1 or the older Beta-Versions from Xenonauts 2.

Like said I have played the newest Version the last Days and fight with the first hard medium / big Enemys with Escorts. And there the Escorts bring you down before you reach the Target. Dosen´t matter what you manually or the Automatic Fightsystem do.

Nah, I think he's right here. You can move your planes around at the start of combat so you can almost always set them up to get a volley of torpedoes off before the escorts get into danger range. Rockets and cannons might be good if you get into a proper fight with the UFOs but in the current balance it seems like you don't actually need to, you can just fire the torpedoes and then retreat immediately.

I'll be making some changes to hopefully address this for V25. Anyway, probably best to put this stuff in the air combat thread. I'll be posting my more detailed thoughts in that thread too once I've read everything and done a bit of testing myself.