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Feedback on: Reaction fire from aliens, Xenonaut base attack, door closing, and baseball grenade


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17 minutes ago, Komandos said:

1. I don't see the impossibility of winning the first fight (Cleaner base). With so many enemies, your soldiers need to move more carefully. But even with such a fast pace of soldiers moving forward - you would have won this battle if you had a little more soldiers.

Hehe, yeah, I mean, I'm not some tactical genius or anything. I just got really upset with the turrets. I had a grand old time before those started to massacre my men. Even Chris got killed. RIP.

18 minutes ago, Komandos said:

2. The second battle (the alien attack on the Xenonauts base) ended too quickly. There were too few aliens. The fight itself was dynamic and eventful. But I wanted such a battle to last longer. When so many aliens die every turn, it increases the morale of the player.

Not sure what you mean with dynamic? I didn't exactly do much. I just set my men up and the game almost played itself there. Also, reaction fire related.

19 minutes ago, Komandos said:

3. Alien Base assault. Two tactical groups of 5 soldiers are not enough to control all the branches of the corridors. As a result: aliens can easily find themselves in the rear of an attacking tactical group. It also makes it harder to find the last aliens that can wander through the corridors where the player has already been.

Perhaps. I do think I would have won it fairly, if the last aliens wasn't entrenched in that small room, watching from all sides. If they were placed in a larger command room like in Xenonauts 1, with doors that you can actually close, I think the situation wouldn't have been so upsetting for me :P

What did you think of the baseball grenade?

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2 hours ago, alienman said:

Okay, here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8648230ODU

Video starts with the Cleaner base.

At 24:47, we have the Xenonauts base defense.

Then at 28:14 we have the Alien Base assault.

At 49:55 we have the hilarious baseball grenade throw.

This is all experienced as "first time". Also, just a warning. The saltiness might get a bit much at times. Curses, swearing and loud complaints will be heard :)

 

Thanks. Just watching this (with the sound off, thanks for the warning :) ) and it's useful stuff, I've made a few small balancing changes / visual fixes as a result of seeing stuff you're having trouble with.

For the sentry turrets, you're probably under-equipped for this mission but the turrets are pretty ridiculous. I've discovered the main problem is actually that there's an error in the data file that was incorrectly exporting twice as many turrets as there should be in mission, which means in the next update there will only be 6 turrets to deal with rather than 12. But I'll also make these balancing changes:

  • Increase the armour destruction on the MARS rockets from 5 to 10
  • Sentry Gun armour reduced from 25 to 20, fixed a bug preventing it going below 10 Armour
  • Sentry Gun accuracy reduced from 60 to 50
  • Sentry Gun reflexes reduced from 50 to 35

A couple of other things to mention:

  • Crouching doesn't (currently) provide an accuracy bonus. I'm assuming you're crouching your soldiers unneccesarily because of that.
  • You can't currently shoot over the MARS like you can crouched units. This is something I do want to add, but it's a bit complex and we've not yet got round to it. All those shots you're taking over the top of the MARS are actually at -50% accuracy which is making your life much harder.
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25 minutes ago, alienman said:

Not sure what you mean with dynamic?

Constantly (every turn) there is a fire contact of the player's soldiers with aliens.

 

27 minutes ago, alienman said:

What did you think of the baseball grenade?

The fog of war. It is not visible from what distance the alien threw a grenade. It is necessary to check.

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3 hours ago, alienman said:

Okay, here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8648230ODU

Video starts with the Cleaner base.

Man I loved this so much. Your slow descent from 'Oh this'll be a fun adventure with the team!' to 'Oh wow this is harder then I expected' to finally 'WHAT CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY DID I COMMIT TO BE DROPPED INTO THIS DEEPEST ABYSS OF HELL FOR WHICH NOT EVEN DEATH PROVIDES A REPRIEVE' was not only incredibly funny but it was very relatable.

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40 minutes ago, alienman said:

Hehe, yeah, I mean, I'm not some tactical genius or anything. I just got really upset with the turrets.

If you play very carefully, the losses can be minimized, but the fight will drag on for a very long time. Someone likes slow battles, someone likes fast ones. It is good when in the difficulty settings the player can set the strength and number of aliens comfortable for himself, as well as the strength and number of his own soldiers.

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58 minutes ago, Chris said:

Thanks. Just watching this (with the sound off, thanks for the warning :) ) and it's useful stuff, I've made a few small balancing changes / visual fixes as a result of seeing stuff you're having trouble with.

Good that it could be of help!

59 minutes ago, Chris said:

Crouching doesn't (currently) provide an accuracy bonus. I'm assuming you're crouching your soldiers unneccesarily because of that.

Yeah, I know. I just like have my men sit. Feels more tactical :P

 

59 minutes ago, Chris said:

You can't currently shoot over the MARS like you can crouched units. This is something I do want to add, but it's a bit complex and we've not yet got round to it. All those shots you're taking over the top of the MARS are actually at -50% accuracy which is making your life much harder

Ah, this explains stuff. In the alien base I destroyed my MARS unit with a grenade, while standing behind it. That pissed me off.

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18 minutes ago, Twigg said:

Man I loved this so much. Your slow descent from 'Oh this'll be a fun adventure with the team!' to 'Oh wow this is harder then I expected' to finally 'WHAT CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY DID I COMMIT TO BE DROPPED INTO THIS DEEPEST ABYSS OF HELL FOR WHICH NOT EVEN DEATH PROVIDES A REPRIEVE' was not only incredibly funny but it was very relatable.

Lol, it happens so often in Xenonauts, and other X-com like games. Mission start out well, then suddenly you take 65% losses to one alien or something like that. You can feel the rage building.

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7 hours ago, alienman said:

The 49:55 throw? You can see the alien in the other room throwing it pretty damn far.

I was able to see it at a slow speed. However, I can't say anything about this because I have no experience of throwing objects indoors. In this situation, I no longer like the fact that the viewing angle of the soldiers is 90 degrees, although the soldiers can turn their heads in all directions.

I would suggest adding such a tactical technique (control button) to the game as an "observation". In one mode, the soldier turns his head and sees at an angle of 180-360 degrees, but not too far. In another mode, the angle of view is 45-60 degrees, but the soldier sees very far. In the middle mode, the soldier sees as it is now in the game. Switching the "surveillance" mode takes time.

It seems to me that the problem of grenades in the game is due to the fact that for weapons, the scale of the firing range (in comparison with reality) is reduced by 10-30 times. And for grenades, the scale of the throw range is reduced by 2-3 times. In general, I do not yet know what to say about the range of grenades in the room. Perhaps a real ballistic formula is used, and not reduced proportionally in scale by the throw range. (The height of the arc should be as when throwing at 20-50 meters), and the flight range is 2-3 times less.) 

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13 hours ago, alienman said:

Okay, here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8648230ODU

Video starts with the Cleaner base.

At 24:47, we have the Xenonauts base defense.

Then at 28:14 we have the Alien Base assault.

At 49:55 we have the hilarious baseball grenade throw.

This is all experienced as "first time". Also, just a warning. The saltiness might get a bit much at times. Curses, swearing and loud complaints will be heard :)

 

Took a quick look of your Cleaner base mission... with such rushing and poor tactics, you should lose IMO. Even if the game balance is clearly a bit off, you can't just blame the game if you are playing like that. :)

Edited by Skitso
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28 minutes ago, Skitso said:

Took a quick look of your Cleaner base mission... with such rushing and poor tactics, you should lose IMO. Even if the game balance is clearly a bit off, you can't just blame the game if you are playing like that. :)

Meh. I'm no tactical genius, and I don't really blame the game. It's just not fun gameplay. So, how would you tackle the turrets? You can't close the doors. You can't move away from the door after opening them. You can't shoot them, you can't grenade them. Everything triggers reaction fire. It's either smoke, but that cripples your own aim. Shield? I don't get the shield in Xeno 2. It does not absorb damage the same way as in Xeno 1.

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2 hours ago, Komandos said:

I would suggest adding such a tactical technique (control button) to the game as an "observation". In one mode, the soldier turns his head and sees at an angle of 180-360 degrees, but not too far. In another mode, the angle of view is 45-60 degrees, but the soldier sees very far. In the middle mode, the soldier sees as it is now in the game. Switching the "surveillance" mode takes time.

I have a feeling this will come in form of armor. Like in Xeno 1. One of the aliens have 360 view, going by the autopsy.

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3 minutes ago, alienman said:

Meh. I'm no tactical genius, and I don't really blame the game. It's just not fun gameplay. So, how would you tackle the turrets? You can't close the doors. You can't move away from the door after opening them. You can't shoot them, you can't grenade them. Everything triggers reaction fire. It's either smoke, but that cripples your own aim. Shield? I don't get the shield in Xeno 2. It does not absorb damage the same way as in Xeno 1.

In general, the mission seems a tad too tough, especially the turrets. But you could have managed by playing a more carefully for example by moving all units behind a door, end turn and open it at the beginning of the next turn, maximizing your firepower.

Edited by Skitso
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2 minutes ago, Skitso said:

In general, the mission seems a tad too tough, especially the turrets. But you could have managed by playing a more carefully for example by moving all units behind a door, end turn and open it at the beginning of the next turn, maximizing your firepower.

That is in general my go to tactics for Xeno. But the problem is that I can't close it when I fail to kill the things on the other side, which happens often enough. When you fail, your whole team is trapped there open for retaliation. I know it happened at times too in Xeno 1. Sometimes the engaged aliens would come through the door and grenade you.

But yeah, I admit, It's not the most careful play. I learned a lesson. I have to utilize smoke much more, but it's also a question of carrying more smoke.

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32 minutes ago, Skitso said:

with such rushing and poor tactics, you should lose IMO. Even if the game balance is clearly a bit off, you can't just blame the game if you are playing like that. :)

In order to play well, you need to study the mechanics of the game, the physics of the game space, the capabilities of aliens and your soldiers, the properties of weapons and shelters. All this is achieved through numerous trials and errors. Can a newcomer predict how far an alien grenade will fly? How quickly will the aliens react to your movement with a return shot?

The way we see this fight on the video is how everyone who has recently started playing this game will fight. Also, the mechanics of Xenonauts 2 differs from the mechanics of Xenonauts 1, so everyone will have problems at first.

And if you add a timer to the battles, then even those who wait for hours for a convenient moment for a well-aimed shot will also have to play at about this pace.

 

I can capture an alien base with 1-2 soldiers, but spend a day of real time on it. And I can capture the alien base in 10-15 minutes, but spend 10-12 (or more) soldiers on it. It all depends on how long I agree to wait (prepare) a convenient moment for a shot.

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43 minutes ago, Skitso said:

In general, the mission seems a tad too tough, especially the turrets.

The first mission does not seem too difficult because: the aliens mostly stand in one place and do not run to attack. There is always time and opportunity to choose a convenient position for shooting from a long distance (out of the alien's field of view), and there is always time and opportunity to choose a convenient position for throwing a grenade (a shot from a grenade launcher) near the place where the alien is standing (without showing up in the alien's field of view). There is also always time and opportunity to realize the numerical advantage of soldiers over any open doors. But this tactic is too long (it takes more time than 10-20-30 minutes) and the player gets tired after several such long battles.

And I would also increase the number of soldiers the player has (for similar missions) at least up to 12. So that the soldiers can be divided into three groups and control the corridors on the left, right, front.

Edited by Komandos
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IMO the most difficult parts of the cleaner base is the initial push and the final room.

For the initial push I wait a few turns in the initial area to see if the cleaners will push through themselves and get done by reaction fire. Once that is done you have one soldier open the door and the rest far behind. If you find an enemy then have one of the soldiers out of line of sight throw a smoke grenade at your exposed soldier (which won't trigger reaction fire) and then pull that scouting soldier back in hopes they don't get killed. You have to scout very carefully and once you fine a turret use the large blast radius of grenades (I prefer the demo charge over the regular grenade before you hit alenium explosives) as guns below laser don't do much to the armor.

For the final room I open both side doors and only shoot at cleaners who are facing the other way. For example if I open the right side door and there is a cleaner facing it I shoot at them with the soldiers from the left side door. Not only does this not trigger reaction fire but the soldier will turn around so I can then shoot at them with the right side soldiers. I try to ignore the turrets in this room initially and hope I can line of sight them but very often I fall back on the strategy of smoke grenade and pray. 

Chris mentioned that there was a bug that caused too many turrets to spawn which is great news but this will probably be the most difficult mission to do once we go back to 8 starting soldiers.

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5 hours ago, alienman said:

I have a feeling this will come in form of armor. Like in Xeno 1. One of the aliens have 360 view, going by the autopsy.

Armor is not a tactical skill that can be used on the battlefield (for example, during the transfer of a move to the enemy), in order for the soldier to have a better chance of noticing an alien: either around himself at a short distance, or in front of him at a great distance.

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I watched a new video.

Impressions: buildings are very fragile. An explosion from a hand-held multi-shot grenade launcher destroys brick walls in a large radius.

Getting a grenade out of your pocket, pulling out the pin, swinging and throwing it at the target - all this takes less time than pulling the trigger of a machine gun and firing three bullets from a machine gun.

Scientists, having received the corpse of an alien, somehow determine the reaction of an alien, the accuracy of an alien, the courage of an alien and other properties that can only be determined on a living alien.

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This will be my final feedback for now since my playthrough has come to an end. This is all my own opinion of course. What I like, someone else might dislike, and so on. Anyway, here we go.

I'm 100% sure I'm going to miss stuff, but let's start with the good stuff:

  • New 3D engine (just wish the terrain wasn't that flat)
  • New animations
  • Awesome new music
  • The combat in general is enjoyable. Much like Xenonauts 1
  • I like that UFOs are slower on the geoscape. Feels more realistic
  • I like that the planes now track UFOs correctly
  • I love that you have to equip planes now which makes them more individualized 
  • More to build with the engineers, which leads to more customization overall
  • Combine different armor parts
  • Armor will protect your men
  • The new vehicle (MARS) is cool. And I like it's cheaper to repair when destroyed, instead of having to build a new one
  • The economics of the game are much more brutal. I love it
  • It seems you have to sell stuff to survive. This I like
  • The aliens look cool, I like the brutes
  • Reaper zombifying looks way cooler
  • UI improvements when recruiting, now you see their face even
  • The grenade arc looks better, and it looks like you are throwing something in a 3D world
  • Xenopedia UI, like the extra info tabs you get in the top right corner when looking at a subject 
  • The alien base looks cool. I like the small flanking corridors
  • General writing (Xenopedia stuff)

Now to some negative stuff:

  • Reaction fire galore, which slows down the game. Will expand on this below
  • Alien base central command (second floor). It's way too open, and suicidal (frustrating) to attack
  • Baseball grenade (throwing grenades in a straight line)
  • No increased accuracy when crouching (In general, removing complexity is bad)
  • Can't close base (alien) doors. I understand why this was changed from a gameplay/balance viewpoint, but it makes little sense otherwise. The door only got an open button?
  • While the game is 3D, shooting seems to be "hitscan". The animation for the bullet feels fake, it's just there for effect. I have seen bullets pass through objects, units, and other things, that should have blocked the shot if it was a true 3D-rendered object in the world. Think Silent Storm game
  • No date (months, years) on the geoscape. Feels very nondescript just having day XXX
  • The setting. I like it, but I prefer the cool 80s NATO vs. Russia in Xenonauts 1
  • Why do we have pilots, when the pilot gets deleted with the plane if you decommission it? It seems like a pointless addition if that is that they are going to be
  • Less detail in the environments, especially when looking at the human base tiles

Beyond what is said here, and what has been said in this thread earlier, my main issue with the game is that it seems the best way to play is to play defensively/passively on the battlefield. And that seems to apply to the aliens as well. With that I mean - hunker down and wait for the aliens to come, and unleash hell on them with reaction fire. The aliens use these exact tactics as well, except for the suicidal half-blind Sebellians.

One of the cool aspects of OG X-com, Terror from the Deep, Apocalypse, and Xenonauts is that there is a lot more movement involved, especially in TFTD. You move around on the map in these games, which leads to cool stuff, like actually having to explore which gets you to see different kinds of buildings/terrain. And it forces you out of your comfort zone. Phoenix Point and Battle Brothers (even if it works differently) have the same problem as Xenonauts 2. Phoenix Point has very small maps, and often more than half the map is already revealed when you load in. Often you spot enemies at the first turn too. There is no exploration, no tension, you go from geoscape to action immediately - and the best decision is just to hunker down and wait for the aliens.

Now Battle Brothers are designed around this concept, but on some missions, you have to move around, and I always found these parts very enjoyable. Walking through a forest, looking for bandits, or some other horrible beast. After a while, the passive nature of Battle Brothers gets to me. It feels more like chess at times than an immersive game set in a harsh medieval fantasy world.

Anyway, I find exploration and the tension that comes with that is currently missing in Xenonauts 2 (not entirely), much thanks to the incredibly punishing reaction fire (and small maps). This works both ways - the best option is to let the aliens make the mistake of moving, instead of you.

That is all. I'm looking forward to future releases!

Edited by alienman
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45 minutes ago, alienman said:

This will be my final feedback for now since my playthrough has come to an end. This is all my own opinion of course. What I like, someone else might dislike, and so on. Anyway, here we go.

I'm 100% sure I'm going to miss stuff, but let's start with the good stuff:

  • New 3D engine (just wish the terrain wasn't that flat)
  • New animations
  • Awesome new music
  • The combat in general is enjoyable. Much like Xenonauts 1
  • I like that UFOs are slower on the geoscape. Feels more realistic
  • I like that the planes now track UFOs correctly
  • I love that you have to equip planes now which makes them more individualized 
  • More to build with the engineers, which leads to more customization overall
  • Combine different armor parts
  • Armor will protect your men
  • The new vehicle (MARS) is cool. And I like it's cheaper to repair when destroyed, instead of having to build a new one
  • The economics of the game are much more brutal. I love it
  • It seems you have to sell stuff to survive. This I like
  • The aliens look cool, I like the brutes
  • Reaper zombifying looks way cooler
  • UI improvements when recruiting, now you see their face even
  • The grenade arc looks better, and it looks like you are throwing something in a 3D world
  • Xenopedia UI, like the extra info tabs you get in the top right corner when looking at a subject 
  • The alien base looks cool. I like the small flanking corridors
  • General writing (Xenopedia stuff)

Now to some negative stuff:

  • Reaction fire galore, which slows down the game. Will expand on this below
  • Alien base central command (second floor). It's way too open, and suicidal (frustrating) to attack
  • Baseball grenade (throwing grenades in a straight line)
  • No increased accuracy when crouching (In general, removing complexity is bad)
  • Can't close base (alien) doors. I understand why this was changed from a gameplay/balance viewpoint, but it makes little sense otherwise. The door only got an open button?
  • While the game is 3D, shooting seems to be "hitscan". The animation for the bullet feels fake, it's just there for effect. I have seen bullets pass through objects, units, and other things, that should have blocked the shot if it was a true 3D-rendered object in the world. Think Silent Storm game
  • No date (months, years) on the geoscape. Feels very nondescript just having day XXX
  • The setting. I like it, but I prefer the cool 80s NATO vs. Russia in Xenonauts 1
  • Why do we have pilots, when the pilot gets deleted with the plane if you decommission it? It seems like a pointless addition if that is that they are going to be
  • Less detail in the environments, especially when looking at the human base tiles

Beyond what is said here, and what has been said in this thread earlier, my main issue with the game is that it seems the best way to play is to play defensively/passively on the battlefield. And that seems to apply to the aliens as well. With that I mean - hunker down and wait for the aliens to come, and unleash hell on them with reaction fire. The aliens use these exact tactics as well, except for the suicidal half-blind Sebellians.

One of the cool aspects of OG X-com, Terror from the Deep, Apocalypse, and Xenonauts is that there is a lot more movement involved, especially in TFTD. You move around on the map in these games, which leads to cool stuff, like actually having to explore which gets you to see different kinds of buildings/terrain. And it forces you out of your comfort zone. Phoenix Point and Battle Brothers (even if it works differently) have the same problem as Xenonauts 2. Phoenix Point has very small maps, and often more than half the map is already revealed when you load in. Often you spot enemies at the first turn too. There is no exploration, no tension, you go from geoscape to action immediately - and the best decision is just to hunker down and wait for the aliens.

Now Battle Brothers are designed around this concept, but on some missions, you have to move around, and I always found these parts very enjoyable. Walking through a forest, looking for bandits, or some other horrible beast. After a while, the passive nature of Battle Brothers gets to me. It feels more like chess at times than an immersive game set in a harsh medieval fantasy world.

Anyway, I find exploration and the tension that comes with that is currently missing in Xenonauts 2 (not entirely), much thanks to the incredibly punishing reaction fire (and small maps). This works both ways - the best option is to let the aliens make the mistake of moving, instead of you.

That is all. I'm looking forward to future releases!

Very good point about the exploration and tension! Couldn't agree more.

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On 11/22/2022 at 4:23 AM, Komandos said:

I think the problem is the balance of the game. The reward for winning the mission is too small (not tangible) compared to losses, and at the same time, the player cannot ignore the mission and refuse to complete it without even greater losses for himself.

Something that should be a key rule: No mission should be an inevitable strategic loss, where it doesn't matter whether you take it or not.

On 11/22/2022 at 8:42 AM, Komandos said:

If the task of the aliens (on the battlefield) is to resist the player's soldiers with all their might and, if possible, destroy all the player's soldiers, then what's wrong with the aliens doing a good job of it?

Here's the thing: perfect play by the AI is almost never conducive to good gameplay. You need the AI to make mistakes. In a perfect game, the AI would make fewer mistakes as the difficulty level increases, until you're essentially playing against a human who is better than you are. If you can manage that, I know a lot of universities that would like to offer you an honorary degree.

 

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Quote

I would suggest adding such a tactical technique (control button) to the game as an "observation". In one mode, the soldier turns his head and sees at an angle of 180-360 degrees, but not too far. In another mode, the angle of view is 45-60 degrees, but the soldier sees very far. In the middle mode, the soldier sees as it is now in the game. Switching the "surveillance" mode takes time.

And I would object.

Human vision is not limited to 45-60 degrees; it's much larger (my peripheral vision is something on the order of 160 degrees) -- but that's not important.

What's important is that as soon as we see something in our peripheral vision, we turn to look at it. Even if it's only for half a second.

Effectively, we have a much larger field of vision than modern games allow for without distortion.

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8 hours ago, dstar said:

Human vision is not limited to 45-60 degrees; it's much larger (my peripheral vision is something on the order of 160 degrees) -- but that's not important.

What's important is that as soon as we see something in our peripheral vision, we turn to look at it. Even if it's only for half a second.

Which is what the conversation is about. In Xenonauts 2, the angle of view of soldiers is 90 degrees.

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