Jump to content

Feedback on: Reaction fire from aliens, Xenonaut base attack, door closing, and baseball grenade


Recommended Posts

Been playing some, and while very enjoyable for the most part, I got to say the reaction fire from aliens is going to give me a heart attack. I got absolutely slaughtered in two instances, and both times it just killed all the fun I was having.

First was the base of the Cleaners. Opening a door there meant certain death if you try to do anything. Those turrets just cut through everyone and everything, especially in combination with the Cleaner agents. I have no idea how to tackle that, except by bringing lots of armor, I guess? I had to flee. Then the same thing happened when I attacked an alien base. It was a fun fight until I had to teleport up into a small room filled with aliens, standing in all corners. No cover anywhere. Doing anything triggered a reaction fire that would one-shot my guys. It was extremely frustrating and turned into degenerate gameplay trying to avoid the reaction fire. Lots of save scumming.

I'm wondering what the rest of you think, is the reaction fire fun? It seems every unit will take a reaction, which means you can't do anything. Also, a funny incident was when I ran into an alien, and thanks to them being tanky as hell suddenly, my guy couldn't kill it with an upgraded shotgun at point blank. So he promptly died after firing. It got me thinking that it wouldn't matter what I did in that situation. He was dead anyway, since running triggers reaction fire as much as shooting.

Another thing that happened was that my base was attacked. I kinda expected to be like in Xenonauts 1, but here it was incredibly easy. Just take notice of where you can't spawn, and set up a killing field around it. Is it really supposed to be like that? I was passive throughout the whole defense. The aliens just threw themselves against my defensive line and got murdered, again through reaction fire, but this time working for me.

Then we have the doors. Why can't I close them anymore? Was it considered cheesy or something in Xenonauts 1? It just seems weird not to be able to close doors anymore.

And last. Grenades being able to be thrown like a baseball. I'm not sure I like that, it looks weird, and seems a bit OP. One alien threw a grenade in a straight line across a whole room right into the face of one of my men. While it looked funny, it sure felt like a bullshit moment. I know you can do it yourself also, and I don't like it here either. Shouldn't grenades be an arc thing? It is what makes them unique. It also put limits on its uses indoors, which I think is a good penalty. Now anyone strong enough can hurl it like a pro baseball player at any target.

That was all from me!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, alienman said:

Been playing some, and while very enjoyable for the most part, I got to say the reaction fire from aliens is going to give me a heart attack. I got absolutely slaughtered in two instances, and both times it just killed all the fun I was having.

Yesterday I watched Xenonauts 2 version 24.7 broadcast on YouTube. I got the impression that the enemy has more chances to die from a single shot than the player's soldiers.

I see the problem in the fact that on some tasks it is very easy for the player to lose 4-5 soldiers, and the remaining 4-5 soldiers of the player are very insufficient not to put the remaining soldiers of the "second line" (snipers) at risk.

54 minutes ago, alienman said:

I'm wondering what the rest of you think, is the reaction fire fun? It seems every unit will take a reaction, which means you can't do anything.

Or it is necessary to take more soldiers on a mission so that the player has the ability to calmly survive a much larger number of "sad situations".

Or make it so that the aliens could not cause serious damage to the player's soldiers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Komandos said:

Yesterday I watched Xenonauts 2 version 24.7 broadcast on YouTube. I got the impression that the enemy has more chances to die from a single shot than the player's soldiers.

I see the problem in the fact that on some tasks it is very easy for the player to lose 4-5 soldiers, and the remaining 4-5 soldiers of the player are very insufficient not to put the remaining soldiers of the "second line" (snipers) at risk.

Or it is necessary to take more soldiers on a mission so that the player has the ability to calmly survive a much larger number of "sad situations".

Or make it so that the aliens could not cause serious damage to the player's soldiers.

At the beginning maybe, but the bipedal aliens can take a serious beating.

I don't mind losing a bunch of soldiers personally, or even fail at missions. I just find the situation with confined spaces, and a shit ton of aliens that take reaction one after another really lame & boring gameplay. That seems to be the majority of my losses, at least. Getting punished for moving or even trying, just feels off to me. It's impossible to stun that many aliens too, especially since everyone is located in different parts of the room. So you will always get punished, whatever you decide to do.

I don't see how throwing more soldiers at the problem would improve the situation. The gameplay around storming these rooms are pretty terrible. In my opinion anyway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, alienman said:

I don't see how throwing more soldiers at the problem would improve the situation. The gameplay around storming these rooms are pretty terrible. In my opinion anyway.

In Xenonates 1, it was possible to use explosives with a timer. Even if a soldier died, the explosives worked.

Xenonauts 2 has robots that (in theory) can be used for such tasks.

If an alien can meet 5 player soldiers (assembled together) who will respond with shots to his appearance, then why shouldn't the player be in a similar situation?

Even in real time, this problem cannot be solved otherwise than by throwing grenades at the enemy's lair or using poison gas, a flamethrower.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, alienman said:

First was the base of the Cleaners. Opening a door there meant certain death if you try to do anything. Those turrets just cut through everyone and everything, especially in combination with the Cleaner agents. I have no idea how to tackle that, except by bringing lots of armor, I guess? I had to flee. Then the same thing happened when I attacked an alien base. It was a fun fight until I had to teleport up into a small room filled with aliens, standing in all corners. No cover anywhere. Doing anything triggered a reaction fire that would one-shot my guys. It was extremely frustrating and turned into degenerate gameplay trying to avoid the reaction fire. Lots of save scumming.

I'm wondering what the rest of you think, is the reaction fire fun? It seems every unit will take a reaction, which means you can't do anything. Also, a funny incident was when I ran into an alien, and thanks to them being tanky as hell suddenly, my guy couldn't kill it with an upgraded shotgun at point blank. So he promptly died after firing. It got me thinking that it wouldn't matter what I did in that situation. He was dead anyway, since running triggers reaction fire as much as shooting.

I find the cleaner base in particular to be a gear check, much like the gargoyles in the original dark souls. If you don't have warden armor and laser weapons/alenium grenades then you are almost guaranteed to lose and it is almost solely down to those damn turrets in those small rooms/hallways. It is essentially impossible to shoot at them without them shooting back and they are much more lethal then you are. I have found success throwing alenium grenades around corners from positions outside of their line of sight but that doesn't feel satisfying or fun.

My strategy for breaching the alien base control room is sending in with good armor, high health, and immediately throwing a smoke grenade at your feet. If you are lucky the accuracy modifier from the smoke will help cancel out the insane close range bonus they get when you teleport right into their nose hairs and you have a decent chance of that soldier only being out for 20+ days. If you are really unlucky not only will they die from the reaction fire but your other soldiers outside the room will get suppressed.

I really like the idea of reaction fire in the beginning of the game when everyone's aim is shit and weapons aren't as lethal but alien numbers and damage scale pretty quickly but the maps don't scale at all so you often feel like you are playing minesweeper every time you move a soldier. Late game terror missions are a great example of this as the maps are already small so you have to spend the first half a dozen turns at least sitting in the dropship waiting for the seemingly infinite amount of aliens to fall to your own reaction fire to the point where they are reasonably thinned out and you can actually move around the map.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, alienman said:

I'm wondering what the rest of you think, is the reaction fire fun? It seems every unit will take a reaction, which means you can't do anything. Also, a funny incident was when I ran into an alien, and thanks to them being tanky as hell suddenly, my guy couldn't kill it with an upgraded shotgun at point blank

In the game UFO:2, it was a typical game situation when a player's soldier goes inside a UFO and there is an ambush waiting for him (a reaction shot) from several aliens. In UFO:2, it didn't seem like something inappropriate and annoying, because the game didn't assume that all your soldiers would successfully return from a combat mission.

In the game, the player had to use a "motion sensor" before going inside the UFO (wait for the moment when the aliens inside the UFO will be located in a way convenient for the player).

At a difficult game level, it was a normal mission if 2-4 soldiers returned from 14 soldiers. Sometimes only one.

Soldiers could accumulate experience and improve their performance only in the later stages of the game, when there were many technical improvements and a ship with a capacity of 26 soldiers.

I think the problem is the balance of the game. The reward for winning the mission is too small (not tangible) compared to losses, and at the same time, the player cannot ignore the mission and refuse to complete it without even greater losses for himself.

For example: if a player, in case of victory, receives a tangible (large) bonus that will pay off any losses (losses of soldiers, equipment, ammunition), then such situations will not be perceived as: forced choice of two bad options.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Twigg said:

I find the cleaner base in particular to be a gear check, much like the gargoyles in the original dark souls. If you don't have warden armor and laser weapons/alenium grenades then you are almost guaranteed to lose and it is almost solely down to those damn turrets in those small rooms/hallways. It is essentially impossible to shoot at them without them shooting back and they are much more lethal then you are. I have found success throwing alenium grenades around corners from positions outside of their line of sight but that doesn't feel satisfying or fun.

My strategy for breaching the alien base control room is sending in with good armor, high health, and immediately throwing a smoke grenade at your feet. If you are lucky the accuracy modifier from the smoke will help cancel out the insane close range bonus they get when you teleport right into their nose hairs and you have a decent chance of that soldier only being out for 20+ days. If you are really unlucky not only will they die from the reaction fire but your other soldiers outside the room will get suppressed.

I really like the idea of reaction fire in the beginning of the game when everyone's aim is shit and weapons aren't as lethal but alien numbers and damage scale pretty quickly but the maps don't scale at all so you often feel like you are playing minesweeper every time you move a soldier. Late game terror missions are a great example of this as the maps are already small so you have to spend the first half a dozen turns at least sitting in the dropship waiting for the seemingly infinite amount of aliens to fall to your own reaction fire to the point where they are reasonably thinned out and you can actually move around the map.

Yes, it seems to come down to maps being way too small, at least certain crucial rooms you need to breach, and reaction fire being way too accurate. And yes, I suspected I just needed higher gear, but the mission is kinda presented as a first task kind of thing, before the real fights against the aliens. When I got the HQ mission, I was already way behind in research. That can be improved of course, but it just seemed like a big jump in difficulty going by the earlier missions in the mission series. Could have used a turret in an earlier mission perhaps, maybe just one, so you know what you are up against. I don't know. I just know that I don't like "minesweeper" gameplay as you call it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is important to remember that this game isn't even in early access and the game is still going through changes, some of which are quite impactful. 

I remember an older version where you only had 8 soldiers on the initial dropship but the cleaner base mission was pretty simple and it was something you wanted to rush as there was a guaranteed mentarch in the main room that was a great option for capturing to progress the plot. In that version the cleaner data retrieval mission was brutal and I was happy to end that mission with only 2 dead and 2 grievously injured. 

I think reaction fire as is further incentives slow playing tactical missions which is a problem I think needs solving but I don't have a good solution. My initial thought is baking in some kind of reaction fire resistance to the shield and/or pistol as both of them are near useless as is. I'd happily take a dedicated reaction fire soldier even with only 8 spots in the dropship if it meant I didn't have to play red light green light with guns.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah. I expect things to change, and the it's the main reason for giving feedback :)

Another solution is to make reaction fire harder to pull off. Or make the aliens move around more in larger rooms, so they actually spend their time-units instead of sitting still with full load.

But changes depends on @Chrisof course. I don't know if this is something he really enjoys and considered a done deal.

Edited by alienman
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Twigg said:

I think reaction fire as is further incentives slow playing tactical missions which is a problem I think needs solving but I don't have a good solution.

If the task of the aliens (on the battlefield) is to resist the player's soldiers with all their might and, if possible, destroy all the player's soldiers, then what's wrong with the aliens doing a good job of it?

If aliens are needed only as targets that the player can shoot with pleasure, then there should be significantly more aliens on the battlefield and they should die much easier. Like, for example, in the game "Diablo".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Komandos said:

If the task of the aliens (on the battlefield) is to resist the player's soldiers with all their might and, if possible, destroy all the player's soldiers, then what's wrong with the aliens doing a good job of it?

If aliens are needed only as targets that the player can shoot with pleasure, then there should be significantly more aliens on the battlefield and they should die much easier. Like, for example, in the game "Diablo".

I want the aliens to be a threat, what I don't want is for the aliens and the player to be most effective/threatening by essentially ignoring movement and reserving time units for reaction fire. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, Komandos said:

If the task of the aliens (on the battlefield) is to resist the player's soldiers with all their might and, if possible, destroy all the player's soldiers, then what's wrong with the aliens doing a good job of it?

If aliens are needed only as targets that the player can shoot with pleasure, then there should be significantly more aliens on the battlefield and they should die much easier. Like, for example, in the game "Diablo".

The issue is that reaction fire is extremely unbalanced and unfair as of now. From what these guys are saying, they are dying more often to overwatch fire on the player’s turn than to the aliens on their turn. This results in much slower play because overwatch camping is a much stronger and safer strategy on both sides than actually trying to take out aliens on your turn. 

There are ways to still make aliens strong and threatening without resorting to excessive overwatch fire from both sides. The game will become much more fun and dynamic if the player is encouraged to use all their resources to take out the aliens on their turn. In order to achieve this, overwatch fire on both sides probably needs to be nerfed somewhat. Perhaps a small nerf to accuracy, damage, or an increase in tus required to overwatch fire is enough to make player turn and alien turn combat more powerful and reliable for either side without killing off overwatch strategies entirely. 

Base attacks should probably have a small soft pressure as well to encourage the player to move out of the starting area. Perhaps the aliens can have a secondary objective of damaging and destroying base structures, which can stall things like research and engineering projects for a few days if they succeed, so the player can choose to stay and camp at the base’s center at a cost. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, Kamehamehayes said:

The issue is that reaction fire is extremely unbalanced and unfair as of now. From what these guys are saying, they are dying more often to overwatch fire on the player’s turn than to the aliens on their turn

Return fire (overwatch) is one of the few tactics that are in the game. You can't just cancel it. And you are unlikely to like the situation when your soldiers will not be able to create ambushes, or 8 of your soldiers sitting in ambush with a full supply of AP (movement points) will not be able to react (ovoverwatch) to an alien who came around the corner (or entered the door) and threw a grenade at your soldiers.

If the player is playing at a high level of difficulty, then it is normal that aliens create difficult problems for the player. If the player is playing at a low difficulty level, then the aliens should not pose much danger to the player.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@alienman thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it. I'm glad you're enjoying the game overall but yeah, I'm sure there's quite a few points where the game is badly balanced. You're doing the right thing by flagging them up on the forums for discussion. Having seen the post about alien bases by @Twigg in the other thread I think it'd be helpful in future versions if you included save games for me to look at, because it's rare that I have time to properly play a campaign for the 10+ missions it takes to get to the Cleaner Base mission. If multiple people are telling me a mission feels unfair then I'm happy to boot up a save and experience it for myself.

Specific things that would be helpful (and this goes for everyone, not just the two people mentioned in this post) is a save from the start of the mission, and a save from any parts of the mission that feel particularly unfair. Like a room with those turrets in them.

So, replies to some of the specific points raised by you and others:

  • I'll be fixing the alien base command room layout in the next update so it feels less unfair.
  • Does anyone have a save for the Cleaner base so I can experience the turrets for myself? They don't sound like much fun to play against, but I'm happy to tweak their numbers for V25 to make them a bit fairer.
  • However, one of the things about the Cleaner Base is that the mission is meant to be a gear check to some extent, or at least not something you can win if you just make a beeline straight for it in the tech tree. Because if we make it possible to win the mission at the start of the game, if people unlock the mission later then it'll be a walkover (it's kinda expecting players to have at least Warden armour and Accelerated weapons, and ideally better). However, this isn't communicated to the player right now. A few ways we can address that:
    • It's probably possible for me to set the game up so the enemies at the base and grow stronger and more numerous as the game progresses. If you research the mission early then potentially you could win the mission. Perhaps we'd stop the enemies scaling at a certain point so it becomes easy if you leave it until later in the game.
    • We could also just keep the mission as is, but gate the research project behind a research discovery from further down the tech tree. Maybe something on the Destroyer UFO a couple of months in?
    • I suspect everyone is going to prefer option 1 here?
  • I must admit I've not properly playtested the new setup for the Xenonaut Base defence missions within a campaign. However the few times I have encountered them in prior playthroughs they have seemed kinda boring because they do end up being too easy overall. The original logic was that we had to allow the player to deploy anywhere because we'd added sentry guns that were unable to move, but then we gave them wheels to make them less useless so there's no longer any reason for it.
    • I think I agree that we'd be better off if we limited the player spawn to the access lift room. Does anyone else have any strong feelings here?
  • Are you talking about the doors in the Xenonaut Base Defence missions being ones you can't close? Are you able to close them in X1 then? I thought we'd removed that because people kept using it to game the AI, and they're big doors that it makes sense wouldn't be very quick to close.
  • Grenades are arc weapons, yes, but I understand the complaint that throwing them at max range in an extremely low arc is probably a bit silly. I'll have a chat to the coders to see if we can implement some kind of minimum arc for grenade throws that means you'd get reduced range if you try to throw them in an enclosed space where only a flat trajectory is possible. It's quite a complicated issue so no promises here.
  • The reaction fire issue is one I think we'll have to revisit after V25. It sounds like a lot of the problems aren't with the reaction fire mechanic specifically but the layout of the maps or the stats of the aliens.
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Komandos said:

To do this, it is enough to set a lower difficulty of the game.

Not necessarily. I’m proposing that the aliens should be tougher on their turn while nerfing their overwatch presence on the player’s turn, or allow the aliens to punish mistakes more easily while not overly punishing things like moving around the map. Essentially, more of the difficulty is being transferred from alien overwatch to the alien turn itself, so, theoretically, the difficulty will remain the same as before. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Kamehamehayes said:

I’m proposing that the aliens should be tougher on their turn while nerfing their overwatch presence on the player’s turn, or allow the aliens to punish mistakes more easily while not overly punishing things like moving around the map. Essentially, more of the difficulty is being transferred from alien overwatch to the alien turn itself, so, theoretically, the difficulty will remain the same as before. 

I believe that the aliens and the player's soldiers should obey the same rules (play by the same rules). It is impossible to create a good artificial intelligence for aliens aimed at winning if the aliens are forced to concede purposefully to the player.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, Chris said:

We could also just keep the mission as is, but gate the research project behind a research discovery from further down the tech tree. Maybe something on the Destroyer UFO a couple of months in?

I like this option the most: defeat in the mission should open the way to new research. However, it is worth adding to the briefing such a type of mission as "reconnaissance" is to engage the enemy, try to inflict losses on the enemy (destroy several aliens), and then retreat. Or he will engage in battle with aliens and retreat from the battlefield only if the losses among the player's soldiers amount to more than 25%. In this case, a new door for research opens.

In general: I suggest adding a type of "exploration" missions whose goal is not to defeat the enemy, but to open a new study, or to show the player the complexity of such tasks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Chris

Yeah, you are right about the doors. The Xenonauts base door you can't close, but I meant the Alien Base ones. You open them, then they stay open until next turn. You can't close them yourself. Just wondering about this change. Was it because of door abuse or something like that in Xenonauts 1?

And I don't have a save, but I did record my experience for Youtube. Only one episode is uploaded, though, and it's not showing the issues. But I can make a special video showcasing some of the issues if you want.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Chris said:

It's probably possible for me to set the game up so the enemies at the base and grow stronger and more numerous as the game progresses. If you research the mission early then potentially you could win the mission. Perhaps we'd stop the enemies scaling at a certain point so it becomes easy if you leave it until later in the game.

The player has scientific research, which means that the player himself (with the help of scientific research) is able to adapt his army to the new difficulties of battle. If, after an unsuccessful battle (or a successful alien base exploration mission), the player receives a scientific study "Alien Base Capture Tactics", then this may prevent the player from "attacking the enemy Level-100 with a Level-1 hero" until scientists give permission to conduct such a task.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, alienman said:

And I don't have a save, but I did record my experience for Youtube. Only one episode is uploaded, though, and it's not showing the issues. But I can make a special video showcasing some of the issues if you want.

It is interesting to see on the video (YouTube) the experience of your passing the game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Komandos said:

It is interesting to see on the video (YouTube) the experience of your passing the game.

Okay, here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8648230ODU

Video starts with the Cleaner base.

At 24:47, we have the Xenonauts base defense.

Then at 28:14 we have the Alien Base assault.

At 49:55 we have the hilarious baseball grenade throw.

This is all experienced as "first time". Also, just a warning. The saltiness might get a bit much at times. Curses, swearing and loud complaints will be heard :)

 

Edited by alienman
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, alienman said:

1. I don't see the impossibility of winning the first fight (Cleaner base). With so many enemies, your soldiers need to move more carefully. But even with such a fast pace of soldiers moving forward - you would have won this battle if you had a little more soldiers.

2. The second battle (the alien attack on the Xenonauts base) ended too quickly. There were too few aliens. The fight itself was dynamic and eventful. But I wanted such a battle to last longer. When so many aliens die every turn, it increases the morale of the player.

3. Alien Base assault. Two tactical groups of 5 soldiers are not enough to control all the branches of the corridors. As a result: aliens can easily find themselves in the rear of an attacking tactical group. It also makes it harder to find the last aliens that can wander through the corridors where the player has already been.

You didn't have enough soldiers to win. For missions of this complexity, 10 soldiers are not enough. Especially if the player is a beginner.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...