Unfriendly AI soldiers

[forever rookie]

I see you're preparing friendly AI soldiers

Soviet Soldier: http://www.xenonauts.com/devimages/russian.png

Arab Soldier: http://www.xenonauts.com/devimages/arab.png

New National Guard: http://www.xenonauts.com/devimages/nationalguard.png)

So I have the following suggestion, that to me seems a cheap way of varying/spicing things a bit:

How about having a probability of encountering unfriendly (aliens allied) soldiers when doing any kind of mission inside a territory of a country controlled by aliens? It is just normal to expect that an alien-allied country, sends help for their extraterrestrial fellows when they're in trouble.

It could be a raw 50% possibility to keep it simple, but ideally for ufo recoveries the probability of enemy soldiers appearing should increase with time: the more late you get to the ufo, the higer the possibility that the "alien rescue squad" is there. Alien bases instead (when they are placed in an alien-controlled territory, of course), could always have enemy soldiers; but this may conflict with the flavor you want the alien bases to have.

(Missions in those territories would then be more difficult/dangerous, it is a wanted thing).

Aaaand If you want to exaggerate, you could have human-only base raids: basically an alien-controlled country sends an airship full of soldiers to invade one of the player bases, instead of having the usual ufo full of aliens. Sort of like in X-Com Apocalypse, where the corporations could autonomously attack a player base.

Though I don't know how Xenonauts works with the matter of base invasions, and this last portion sounds way less cheap to implement than the other one.

Thanks for the attention.

[Max_Caine]

The only issue I'd see with this is that AI soliders are more useful speedbumps vs. aliens rather than valuable allies. Unless they were beefed up, Xenonauts would probably kill them quite quickly.

[Khall]

I think that hostile NPC soldiers in alien controlled territory is a must. NPC human soldiers is a great addition that neither the original X-com or (if I'm not mistaken) the new one has, so I would love to see it realise it's full potential.

Base attacks by hostile territories is also a good idea . Can you imagine seeing:

"A South American strikeforce is launching an attack on European base"

There should be slightly more troops than an equivalent base attack by aliens (to make up their disadvantage) and better equppied than usual e.g. more laser weapons. Only things I'm not sure about is what sprites to use (For Russian attacks use soviet soldiers, for North America use american soldiers, but what about the rest?) and how the enemy strikeforce would get there, would it be a chinook escorted by F-17s or what?

The thing to remember with this is that the aliens are still the main enemy so human base attacks should be uncommon.

The only issue I'd see with this is that AI soliders are more useful speedbumps vs. aliens rather than valuable allies. Unless they were beefed up, Xenonauts would probably kill them quite quickly.

The aliens would still be the main enemy (outside of human base attacks), only instead of being a speed bump to them, they would be a speed bump for you. They would get upgraded weapons as the game goes on anyway, though admittedly, their health and armour probably won't go up. Hopefully the new A.I. should make them better than weak turrets.

Edited September 2, 2012 by Khall

[Buzzles]

Wait till the psyonics are properly working

[forever rookie]

I think that hostile NPC soldiers in alien controlled territory is a must [...] a great addition that neither the original X-com or (if I'm not mistaken) the new one has, so I would love to see it

That summarizes why I proposed this. If the units sprites weren't there, it would of course be out of question; but they're already being made, so the bigger and costly (at least by my "programming-noob" point of view) part of implementing this feature should be already covered.

[Jean-Luc]

I do agree that hostile humans would be nice in alien controlled countries or perhaps even the appearance of unidentified "shadow organizations" on retrieval missions trying to get the alien tech for themselves, etc. Naturally, we've discussed this quite a few times before.

The thing is it doesn't just come down to sprites. You need some kind of story around it, balance/integration with the rest of the game, meaningful gameplay to define the feature, the sprites would also need to look different than existing friendly soldiers (maybe just a re-paint) otherwise it looks "cheap" and creates confusion.

I just don't think it's viable right now if Chris wants to release the game before the year is out. Would gladly fork out for an expansion that adds this as well as some cold war related features though.

[thothkins]

One such discussion of such things was coldest war

[forever rookie]

Shadow organizations and Coldest war are super-cool yet HUGE stuff I wouldn't even think of suggesting.

What I'm proposing is really very simple: they're already (provided I understood correctly) adding friendly AI soldiers in some maps, so they should/could just add unfriendly (alien-allied) AI soldiers in some other maps (some of the maps from missions inside alien-allied countries that is; even a fixed % would be fine).

There is no need for sprites differentiation as the world countries are fixed: if they are friendly then their soldiers are friendly, if they're unfriendly then the very same soldiers are unfriendly. There won't be confusion because unfriendly soldiers are marked as enemies, with the enemy indicator, just like aliens. X-Com Apocalypse used the same sprites for a corporation, either it was friendly or enemy to X-Com, and it was fine.

About explaining it to the player: when the game shows the message "country x made a pact with the aliens", you'd just need to add a warning about the chance of finding hostile military when doing missions in those territories. And since you're already encountering friendly troops, it isn't unexpected.

Done.

Even in this simplistic form it's enough to give that little touch of variety that is fun, and also peculiar since the original didin't have it and the new firaxis's one doesn't seem to have it too.

Indeed however the final decision is up to the developers.

Edited September 6, 2012 by forever rookie

[Gorlom]

Would you get + or - points in the AAR for killing unfriendly human AI soldiers?

[Khall]

Would it really matter if the territory is hostile to you anyway? Actually, does any score matter if you do missions in hostile territory, since they don't come back? Though for the purposes of the AAR probably no score either way, just the number killed, since it wouldn't matter (that could probably extend to all points given when in hostile territory.)

Maybe hostile soldiers should start appearing when a territory goes below a certain funding level, you would get - points for killing them, and give you an incentive to stun them instead.

[Gorlom]

Would it really matter if the territory is hostile to you anyway? Actually, does any score matter if you do missions in hostile territory, since they don't come back? Though for the purposes of the AAR probably no score either way, just the number killed, since it wouldn't matter (that could probably extend to all points given when in hostile territory.)

Maybe hostile soldiers should start appearing when a territory goes below a certain funding level, you would get - points for killing them, and give you an incentive to stun them instead.

I wouldn't be so sure bout that bolded part. Chris has hinted / indicated the opposite.

[forever rookie]

Would you get + or - points in the AAR for killing unfriendly human AI soldiers?

Good interrogative.

X-Com Apocalypse, if I remember correctly, scored you normally when killing other corporations operatives.

(If the corporation was already hostile the only drawback was a worsening in the relationships with its eventual affiliated corporations, iirc).

Giving - points is an interesting and meaningful idea. But I think that without expanding properly the aspect, like giving the player the power to "break" the country alliance with the aliens or sort of making "desert" part of its military* (or at least to significantly avoid human killing, like: the humans invade the map after the 20th turn, so you can avoid them if you act speedy), it would become a little punitive, because the player is sort of bound of getting scored negatively since in most of the cases he can't help but kill those people.

So, synthesizing, if the presence of hostile humans forces is kept in a very simple form like the one I suggested, then I think a + scoring would be more appropriate, game-wise, even if it isn't meaningful as a - scoring.

* for example turning them into agents if (stunned and) brought back alive.. but that would make sense only with limited recruiting, like in X-Com Apocalypse.

Edited September 7, 2012 by forever rookie

[Gauddlike]

Missions to bring lost countries back to your side have been mentioned by Chris.

If you do missions there to get them back on your side but have to kill their troops then you incur further penalties to your standing.

Killing their people to get them to join back up with you is counter intuitive.

Making them as avoidable late mission enemies, or not giving them enough high tech gear to be a threat, just makes them dull and uninteresting.

What is the benefit to the game of spending time and effort adding something that you will mainly ignore or may not even see?

[thothkins]

On the points scoring, it could well be negative. Reasoning:-

- Host nation (controlled by aliens) uses propaganda to say that Xenonauts are the aggressors

- They are humans, so there will be a negative impact on anyone witnessing Xenonauts killing them.

- It's an extra punishment for not keeping their country covered in the first place (harsh, but true).

Of course, you'd still want some sort of mechanism to be able to bring them onside. This looks likely to be a single mission, but could have been a series of them. The increased Xenonaut activity in that area over say a month starts to erode the alien control. It also means that they won't be so effective elsewhere, giving some nice balance.

If it's a single mission then the huge plus would be in getting the nation onside again (if only marginally) and I think - points for killing troops would add a little poignant note to it. In the cold war, you're killing people just like you, but on the other side of an idealogical divide at the top.

[ClaytonCross]

Missions to bring lost countries back to your side have been mentioned by Chris.

If you do missions there to get them back on your side but have to kill their troops then you incur further penalties to your standing.

Killing their people to get them to join back up with you is counter intuitive.

Making them as avoidable late mission enemies, or not giving them enough high tech gear to be a threat, just makes them dull and uninteresting.

What is the benefit to the game of spending time and effort adding something that you will mainly ignore or may not even see?

I could see them as a marker of separation to how how far past your starting gear and skill your troops have come and it would be interesting to fight alien collaborators from countries that they have turned, not in regards to turning the country back but simply adding additional number. Even if they are week starting level soldiers if they are numerous and do not diminish end game alien numbers it would still add difficulty because while minor threats, you could not just ignore them. mainly it just a fun idea.

[Wintermist]

Not a big fan of the idea of hostile humans. If you have to fight everyone, then the focus is basically lost. It's you versus everyone.

[thothkins]

well it's you versus the alien sympathisers. So, it's not everyone. After a few are shot as an example, the rest will suddenly come round to your way of thinking. That's the way it usually works.

[ClaytonCross]

well it's you versus the alien sympathisers. So, it's not everyone. After a few are shot as an example, the rest will suddenly come round to your way of thinking. That's the way it usually works.

lol so just the one random mission then. made me laugh, thanks.