Buckshot beta ready

[StellarRat]

This has been discussed literally for years over on Jagged Alliance 2 forums like the Bear's Pit.

Pistols with realistic stats in comparison to SMG / rifles are just about useless in a standup military engagement.

If you want to have something around that size you either use a light SMG like a Scorpion... or make concealability a factor.

Games typically include pistols for coolness reasons or simply to have something from which to upgrade to rifles.

In order to make them work at all, they then get ridiculously inflated characteristics like range or firepower.

I'm not saying that pistols must be deleted from Xenonauts but it would be more logical to replace them with some kind of one-handed SMG. That is something a guy with a riot shield would actually use to enter an UFO. A semi-auto pistol? I think not. =P

Thank you for backing me up!

Anyway, my suggestion is that if you want balance the gunpowder weapons against each other: Use my shotgun mod with the action points increased (make them 17 and 20), increase the damage for the assault rifle to 30 and decrease the pistol damage to 15 (that way at least it can hurt most critters.) Everything else can be left as is. If we ever can add new weapons I'd definitely add a submachine gun like the MP5, Uzi, or Thompson. I've intentionally NOT increased any of weapons above the laser version of the same thing at least in accuracy. The assault rifle is same power as the laser pistol, etc... so laser weapons are still a big step up size for size.

Edited August 21, 2012 by StellarRat

[Gauddlike]

Have you looked at how many one handed SMG's were available in the 70's?

I don't know much about weapons so not really looked into it.

Pretty much every nation issues pistols to its troops, few of them replace them with Uzis and similar.

I think from a game point of view it makes far more sense to have the pistol as the basic weapon for your troops.

I am not overly concerned about trying to balance the pistol against a real world version.

It is impossible to do in the game and only gets in the way of balancing the role.

If weapons had to reflect their real life counterpart all of them would need significant range increases if nothing else.

If there is a 70's authentic single hand held SMG that fits into the role of low powered fallback weapon that is barely better than nothing but allows you to do SOME damage while carrying a utility item then all is good.

I still feel that a pistol is a much better choice purely because it is an archetypical weapon for that sort of role.

[Max_Caine]

Gauddlike, I think you misunderestimate the enjoyment people have about guns. Voila. ALL the submachineguns, curtosy of Wikipedia.

[StellarRat]

If there is a 70's authentic single hand held SMG that fits into the role of low powered fallback weapon that is barely better than nothing but allows you to do SOME damage while carrying a utility item then all is good.

The MP5 would be an excellent choice. It has been a standard weapon of many anti-terrorist units and special forces for many years. It can be fired one handed in a pinch, but is definitely more accurate with two hands and aimed (of course.) Still WAY better than a pistol. Personally, I have no problems with having pistols in the game per se, but they are currently overpowered. I guess my other question is why would anyone pick a pistol to give to their soldiers? If the guy has a the combat shield he'd be better off hurling grenades or flash bangs and having his buddies follow up with assault rifles and shotguns OR just carrying a shotgun or assault rifle in his backpack. They are easy to sling over your shoulder if you need one or two hands free for other stuff.

Maybe my next mod will be replacing the pistol with the MP5. Seems easy enough.

Edited August 21, 2012 by StellarRat

[Gazz]

Thank you for backing me up!

Well, not really. I went totally off on a tangent but what's new about that... =P

I've never held an MP-5 but I did fire UZIs and they are quite controllable.

With the grip being more or less below the center of gravity, you need practically no force to "hold it up" like you would have to with a SMG that has the grip / trigger to the rear.

So for this particular role it would most certainly beat an MP-5.

There's also a version chambered for .45 ACP but you probably want both hands on it if firing that on full auto. =)

You could also use something more compact like a Mini UZI or PM-9. While they hadn't officially been in service at the time, the designs had been around for a long time.

In JA2, my snipers typically carry something like a mini or micro UZI as... a sidearm. Not much range on them but when some elite sneaks up to their roof, they need something better than a stupid pistol.

Edited August 21, 2012 by Gazz

[StellarRat]

You could also use something more compact like a Mini UZI or PM-9. While they hadn't officially been in service at the time, the designs had been around for a long time.

Probably so. Although the MP5 can be selected to semi-auto. Maybe "real" machine pistol like the H&K VP70 or MAC-11. Those were in service and are much smaller. I'll see what I can whip up tonight. Shouldn't take long.

[Gorlom]

Thank you for that lesson in kinetic power in rifle and pistol rounds.

You seem to be right. But I don't think it would be fun to nerf the pistol that much for those of us that are not as interested in real life weapons. (wait this is the modding forum. Are you suggesting reducing it in a mod or reducing it for the official release? If it's just for the mod then never mind me I'll back away from this thread)

[StellarRat]

Thank you for that lesson in kinetic power in rifle and pistol rounds.

You seem to be right. But I don't think it would be fun to nerf the pistol that much for those of us that are not as interested in real life weapons. (wait this is the modding forum. Are you suggesting reducing it in a mod or reducing it for the official release? If it's just for the mod then never mind me I'll back away from this thread)

Thank you for keeping an open mind and looking at my "evidence".

I'm going to present my mod to Chris as a possible balance for some of the weapons. If he wants to put it into the "official" game fine. If not I'll probably just release it as a mod. The only issues I have with the "official" weapons other than the stuff we've talked about here is that the arc of automatic fire and misses is way too huge. In real life only a complete dufus could miss by as much as some of our highly trained Xenonauts miss by now. There really isn't a good reason for it to be this way. By the way, before you write off my pistol ideas try the mod I'm making to change them into machine pistols. I have a feeling you'll not think they're so "nerfed" then. I should have it done tonight all will re-post ALL my changes at once.

[Gauddlike]

The miss arc was reduced in a previous version which made it almost impossible to miss.

A missed shot was still close enough to the target in a lot of cases to clip the tile they were standing in and be reclassified as a hit.

The current miss arcs were set to avoid that problem.

A solution might be to limit the total deviation allowed but also give a minimum variation to a miss.

So a missed shot must deviate between 10 and 20% instead of anything up to 30%.

Gauddlike, I think you misunderestimate the enjoyment people have about guns. Voila. ALL the submachineguns, curtosy of Wikipedia.

I don't underestimate it so much I just don't think this game is the place to cater to it.

The role system works well and the weapons that fill them are archetypes to represent that role.

Adding extra weapons or changing them so they are not so archetypical doesn't fit for me.

I think the shotgun change is good because it fits with what people think of as a shotgun.

The pistol to SMP I am not yet convinced on.

I haven't seen how StellarRat intends to balance the SMP, SMG, and AR at tier two and above yet.

Personally I would have left the pistol alone in its role as backup weapon for the odd time you need a free hand.

I would then have placed the SMG between the pistol and AR, damage and range wise.

Hopefully I will get a chance to try the changes out over the weekend and see how it works for me.

[Gazz]

I don't underestimate it so much I just don't think this game is the place to cater to it.

The role system works well and the weapons that fill them are archetypes to represent that role.

Adding extra weapons or changing them so they are not so archetypical doesn't fit for me.

I think the shotgun change is good because it fits with what people think of as a shotgun.

The pistol to SMP I am not yet convinced on.

Pistols are fine for police / MP forces but this is a military assault on a defended position. (like an UFO)

You bring tanks, machine guns, and rocket launchers, and the man on point gets... a pistol?

A pistol in that role is not archetypical at all. It's stupid and hurts immersion. Of course, military history is full of stupid decisions but we're supposed to learn from those.

There's nothing wrong with the role but something like the VP70 (that StellarRat eventually picked) makes a lot more sense than a semi-auto pistol.

It won't have anywhere near the stopping power of a shotgun or assault rifle but it has... some. That and at least a limited ability to supress.

Personally I'd also mount something like a small claymore on the outside of those combat shields. Something to ah... discourage the Chryssalid that got too close for comfort. =)

[StellarRat]

OK, guys, in case you hadn't noticed, I've put up the full mod as "More Realistic Gunpowder Weapons v 1.0" in this section. If you try it please let me know what you think and, of course, if there are any bugs I need to fix. BTW, from my work computer I'm not able to insert the link to the page, so if someone wants to do that thanks.

Edited August 22, 2012 by StellarRat

[StellarRat]

Personally I'd also mount something like a small claymore on the outside of those combat shields. Something to ah... discourage the Chryssalid that got too close for comfort. =)

Our Department of Corrections uses electrically charged shields to deal with unruly inmates. If you touch the shield you get tasered. That's an idea!

[Gazz]

Well, I didn't say it's a new idea. I just ahh... upscaled it a little bit. =P

[Gorlom]

Personally I'd also mount something like a small claymore on the outside of those combat shields. Something to ah... discourage the Chryssalid that got too close for comfort. =)

Wouldn't that break your immersed arm?

Claymores are directed charges as far as I know but there should still be an opposite and equal force to that blast according to Sir Newton's laws of motion...

[Gazz]

Like I said. A small one. Breaking your own arm seems counterproductive when the Chryssalid is charging you.

There are at least 2 immediate approaches to make it work.

You could press the shield to your body to spread the impact over a large area and you could also fire smaller charges in sequence like a firecracker.

Using both you should be able to put a lot of punch into it without serious injury to yourself.

The other side of the room would be pretty thoroughly wrecked so it might not be ideal for recovering fragile alien equipment. Wouldn't be fun if there weren't any downsides. =)

[Alexandre Lange]

It is possible to use vanilla stats for shotguns, but show buckshot projectiles (visual effect)? To do that, what must I do? Just follow the instructions at the oppening post but don't change the weapon stats?

[Max_Caine]

Having looked at the OP, the answer is yes, but you must alter in weapons_gc.xml the line:

<Projectile spectre="projectiles/bullet/bullet" speed="1500" />

with

<Projectile spectre="projectiles/buckshot/buckshot" speed="1200" showAfterDistance="60.0"/>

in the shotgun section, or it won't show the buckshot image.

[Alexandre Lange]

Many thanks, Max!