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Effects of hiring extra scientists and engineers


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Yeah, this is worth discussing. Basically I’ve changed it so each new scientist increases research speed by 2.5% or so.

I did this because I didn’t want it to be compulsory for the player to build a lab at the beginning of every game; doing so would basically double the number of scientists you had available and provide a huge boost to research speeds for the whole game, which meant it wasn’t really optional if you wanted to play optimally.

What this does mean is we probably red to display a global research speed value somewhere so you can see how it works.

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I'd agree that the UI is the bigger issue here, it's very unclear how much each scientist is contributing, and also unclear what the effects of hiring more would be. Same goes for engineers.

Ideally, starting with an extra lab (or extra workshop) should be viable but not mandatory. Currently, scientists have such diminishing returns that it's not really viable, but I'm confident the right numbers can be found there.

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Workshops still use the previous system, as engineering queues aren't global. So adding a new workshop is just as viable as it ever was. Whereas research is a unique case because it gates so much of the player's power level in the game.

Tbh I'd have thought getting a 15% research speed increase across the entire game would be a decent bonus for building one base structure?

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It's more like two structures because you start with 2 living space available, so an extra lab needs an extra living quarters as well. Which you also need to build if you're getting an extra workshop, sure, but worth noting in the context of this discussion.

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On 10/22/2022 at 4:38 PM, Chris said:

Yeah, this is worth discussing. Basically I’ve changed it so each new scientist increases research speed by 2.5% or so.

For each scientific project, there should be an optimal number of scientists (show the player), at which the progress of research per unit will be maximum. With an increase or decrease in this number, the effectiveness of each scientist decreases on an increasing principle. 

For example, if the optimal number of scientists is 10, then 10 scientists will work with an efficiency of 100% each. If there are 9 or 11 scientists, then each scientist will work with 95% efficiency. If there are 8 or 12 scientists, then each scientist will work with an efficiency of 90%. If there are 1 or 19 scientists will work with an efficiency of 50% (the lowest minimum).

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On 10/23/2022 at 5:31 PM, Komandos said:

For each scientific project, there should be an optimal number of scientists (show the player), at which the progress of research per unit will be maximum. With an increase or decrease in this number, the effectiveness of each scientist decreases on an increasing principle. 

For example, if the optimal number of scientists is 10, then 10 scientists will work with an efficiency of 100% each. If there are 9 or 11 scientists, then each scientist will work with 95% efficiency. If there are 8 or 12 scientists, then each scientist will work with an efficiency of 90%. If there are 1 or 19 scientists will work with an efficiency of 50% (the lowest minimum).

This is something I did consider, and (providing I'm willing to do all the data entry) is supported by the game already.

But I just don't think it ends up being a very exciting choice when you can only have one research project going at a time. The only way to set it up, really, is to just put projects in tiers and then increase the number of required scientists as the tech gets more advanced.

I guess it has the advantage that getting more scientists then allows you to unlock more advanced tech faster without speeding up basic tech too much ... but if so, that means I need to make a lot more tech available in the early game rather than having it fed slowly to the players as the new types of UFO appear.

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The Hiering of Scientists and Engeneers can be done with 2 Choisses (the either or other):

1. You buy them like it´s now in the Xenonaut-Series (X1 and here in X2) as well as older Games.

2. You have Living Space Free and get them with the Buildup of an other Lab / Workshop, which is not very easy. 

The Second get used in the UFO-ET-Series with normal Gameplay. Therefore the Lab [and that´s only 1] costs with Personal 3,5 Millions. The B-Man-Mod (and the maximum UNI-Mod) changed that System for the UFO 1 ET Standard- / Gold-Edition and you get the Lab for much lesser Money, but therefore you had to pay for the Personal seperately. The same you get for the Workshop. Dosen´t matter normal, advanced or such.

What the Personal and shorting Time belongs:

It´s not a Bug, it´s an Feature. If more People work on an Project you get faster Resultes about splitting the Work. Some making the Blood-Analyses, others the Autopsy, others the more detailed Organscheck etc. The same you have in the Workshop. The more People working on an Project (like buildup the MARS, Armors, Weapons, Fighters etc.), the faster it´s done.

If not you will lose the Game faster then you can say "Iwo Jima".

Edited by Alienkiller
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9 hours ago, Chris said:

But I just don't think it ends up being a very exciting choice when you can only have one research project going at a time. The only way to set it up, really, is to just put projects in tiers and then increase the number of required scientists as the tech gets more advanced.

I can suggest the following scientific research model:

1. There are science centers in the game.

2. You do NOT hire scientists to work in research centers, but heads of research laboratories.

3. Each head of scientific laboratories has his own laboratory with a certain number of scientists and equipped with equipment of a certain level and quality. All laboratories differ in cost, number of personnel and quality of equipment.

4. You entrust the research of scientific projects to these scientific laboratories. You can assign as many scientific laboratories to each project as you want.

5. These scientific laboratories are scattered all over the globe. The number of laboratories with which you can sign a contract depends on the number of places in your research center.

6. If the region is lost or aliens attack the city, these labs may be lost. (If they are located there).

7. Unlike individual scientists, each scientific laboratory can have many properties: the number of staff, the cost of work, the speed of work (quality of equipment) additional bonuses when investigating a particular type of artifacts (transport, aliens, tools, technologies)

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1 hour ago, Komandos said:

I can suggest the following scientific research model:

1. There are science centers in the game.

2. You do NOT hire scientists to work in research centers, but heads of research laboratories.

3. Each head of scientific laboratories has his own laboratory with a certain number of scientists and equipped with equipment of a certain level and quality. All laboratories differ in cost, number of personnel and quality of equipment.

4. You entrust the research of scientific projects to these scientific laboratories. You can assign as many scientific laboratories to each project as you want.

5. These scientific laboratories are scattered all over the globe. The number of laboratories with which you can sign a contract depends on the number of places in your research center.

6. If the region is lost or aliens attack the city, these labs may be lost. (If they are located there).

7. Unlike individual scientists, each scientific laboratory can have many properties: the number of staff, the cost of work, the speed of work (quality of equipment) additional bonuses when investigating a particular type of artifacts (transport, aliens, tools, technologies)

LOVE this!

 

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You mean an similar System which get announced in the UFO-Pedia in the UFO-ET-Series (UFO 1 ET Standard- / Gold-Edition). There you are linked with the Labs of the normal Army / Public (from the Text, but not in Game).

Sounds very interessting, esp. for big Projects (Resarch not dismantelt UFOs incl. internals, Dismantle them together with Engineers, Research & Devolop the MARS-Assist-Vehicle, Interceptors, Transports etc.) as well as some medium Projects (first manportable Engergy Weapons, Upgraded Standard-Weapons, uprgaded Standard-Vests, upgraded Standard-Suits).

Lighter and Special-Projects, which are to secret be in your Hands only (the Enemy Organistation, the Aliens and her Secrets, Storyline and similar).

Therefore the testet Outposts would be interesting and give the Globe more living. Evtl. Citys which are important in that (European Union, America, Japan f. e.).

The Quesition is how to integrate that without destroying the existing and workable testet R & D-Part. As well as not to Overstrengh the Development-Time to delay the Early Access 2 more Years. We all have seen how long it took to integrate the refited older Base-System after the cool in Kickstarter-Planded Base-System with that integration on the Globe didn´t worked.

Edited by Alienkiller
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1 hour ago, Alienkiller said:

The Quesition is how to integrate that without destroying the existing and workable testet R & D-Part. As well as not to Overstrengh the Development-Time to delay the Early Access 2 more Years. We all have seen how long it took to integrate the refited older Base-System after the cool in Kickstarter-Planded Base-System wi

Ordinary scientists and an ordinary laboratory can be left in the game. In addition to them, add contracts with the scientific laboratories of the planet. Do it the same way we hire soldiers. Where, instead of individual characteristics of soldiers, there are individual characteristics of a specific scientific laboratory outside the military base. Similarly, it is possible to sign contracts with military enterprises around the world.

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4 hours ago, Komandos said:

Ordinary scientists and an ordinary laboratory can be left in the game. In addition to them, add contracts with the scientific laboratories of the planet. Do it the same way we hire soldiers. Where, instead of individual characteristics of soldiers, there are individual characteristics of a specific scientific laboratory outside the military base. Similarly, it is possible to sign contracts with military enterprises around the world.

Interesting idea. Something like this will add to the whole Cold War atmosphere because NATO and the Soviet block would be working on different projects and work like different factions. The Xenonauts could obtain new research and tech from them by siding with them, at the cost of suffering loss of relations with the opposing faction (much like in pheonix point). 

However, I don’t know how long this will take to set up, so we might have to shelve it for a different idea if there is not enough developer time. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

I'm not really interested in creating a whole new research system at this point, because that would require a substantial amount of developer time to code, create the UI for and rework the entire tech tree, etc. It's taken us a long time to get where we are and I think it'd be better to focus on things like the combat AI and tutorial, etc.

That said, the system Komandos suggested isn't ridiculous either. I see it basically as replacing scientists with abstracted "research leaders". But it does have some issues where it doesn't mesh well with existing mechanics; e.g. if these research leaders are at their labs on the Geoscape then they're not actually filling Living Space in the base. And the idea of scientist specialisations is interesting but works better in a 4X game with a wide research tree with lots of different directions you can do with the research tree, whereas an X-Com game has a relatively linear research tree where there's not actually many different types of project. In practice I found you couldn't offer particularly interesting choices when I experimented with it.

Tying things including research bonuses to the Geoscape territory is a nice idea and once I hope to implement in some way during Early Access, but that's also a very tricky thing to do in practice too as I've discovered several times during development. It very much reinforces the X1 requirement to expand your radar and aircraft coverage over the map as soon as possible, because if you can lose research labs in areas outside your control then it becomes essential to control as much territory as possible (as well as covering the Geoscape in loads of extra icons that tend to just get in the way). So you've got to tread carefully with these mechanics otherwise they just end up making the game less interesting to play (at the moment you could increase your research speeds dramatically without needing to control additional territory).

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Thanks Chris for the Explanation of that.

An similar Problem the Devs from UFO ET-Series, Phoenix Point and Firaxis with the new XCOM-Series have. We all know the different Solutions of that Problem.

1. XCOM have an Main-Base with easy to manage Outposts

2. UFO ET-Series have an Main-Base with limited buildable Secondary-Bases (in UFO 2 ET it splits in Land-Based Secondary-Bases and Aircraft-Carriers with similar comming in the Platinum-Refit)

3. Phoenix Point have splitet smaller Bases on the Globe, which are with Buildings developable and need to be found

 

That´s why the Outposts make Sense again. There we could use the Phoenix-Point-System or the UFO-ET-Series-System and link it with the existing 6 to 8 Base-System from Xenonauts 2.

1. Idea (Phoenix-Point-System which bring a lot of Life on the Geoscape): The old used Outposts from the Xenonauts are in different Countrys. They have 3 Hangars, 1 Living-Space-Room, 1 older Radar, 1 Storage-Room, 1 Workshop, 1 small Laboratory and an seperate older Power-System. All of that Bases get closed step by Step until the Main-Base from Xenonauts (the Starting Base we have) is left. The Xenonaut-Personal have to find that older small Outposts on the Geoscape.

The Reopening need some active Personal of your Main-Base (esp. Engeniers / Scientists) as well as Storage-Material (Equipment). Evtl. you will find demontaged Fighters there (belongs if the Nation is NATO / Sowjet-Pact) and other Secrets from prevoius R & D-Attemtps. As well as the Bases have a little bit more Space for either Defences or 1 more Lab / Workshop.

2. Idea (UFO-ET-System with an similar Life on the Geoscape like Xenonaut 1): You build up your Secondary Bases like now, but you have limitations in Buildings: Radar, Hangars, Workshop or Laboratory, Power-System, Storage-Room, Living-Space-Room and Defence.

Short said: The secondary Bases from the Xenonauts have to be as small and secret as possible not to get overruned from the Aliens or her Helpers. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Chris said:

whereas an X-Com game has a relatively linear research tree where there's not actually many different types of project. In practice I found you couldn't offer particularly interesting choices when I experimented with it.

You can add a "map of scientific knowledge" to the game.

X-COM scientists are moving along the "research map" - just like in RPG games, a "group of travelers" travels around the map of the country, (from one location to another) exploring the game world and making various useful discoveries in game locations, and also encountering various difficulties and "random encounters" along the way. Time required for movement: this is the time needed for research. Each new location is each new technology, which (in turn) opens up a map of smaller studies (discoveries). (Just like in an RPG game, a player visiting a city discovers a map of the city, with many places to visit.) Difficulties and "random encounters" "on the way" are missions that your soldiers are forced to fly out on.

In other words: each study should generate (create for the player) a new type of combat mission that must be successfully solved in order to move forward. (moving forward in research)

Thus: scientific research in the game can be made no less exciting than traveling through an unknown country in RPG games. However, this will require creating many unique locations (alien bases, human bases, etc.) with many different quests. 

(As in RPG games, many unique cities, settlements and other locations have been created.)

I hope I was able to express the idea clearly in English.

Create a "research map" where "research time" is like "travel time" from one location to another; where "random encounters" and "quest tasks" are combat sorties of your soldiers. Where each scientific research creates new (additional) combat tasks for the player. (Just like playing the game "Fallout" - the player explored the world around him, discovered new cities and engaged in combat clashes to gain access to new locations and advance through the plot).

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2 hours ago, Chris said:

and I think it'd be better to focus on things like the combat AI and tutorial, etc.

If the aliens are placed on the battlefield in groups, and these groups of aliens will attack the player. (Not alone, namely simultaneously in a group) then this will increase the difficulty of the battle for the player.

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