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On 10/30/2022 at 11:10 PM, Solver said:

The Advanced Medkit project pretty much sucks. Costs 250k and 20 Sebillian Corpses, which sell for 100k. For a total of 350k, you get a medkit that costs 10 TU instead of 20 TU to use and that's it. Way too weak. Medkits are important but I've rarely been unable to spend the 20 TU and for such an investment, I expected something better. Let them heal more so the soldier gets closer to their max HP?

I think it's more that the starter medkit is way too powerful in the first place. It should take most of a turn for one to patch a wounded unit. It also shouldn't give so much health back (if at all? Maybe just stop bleeding?) IMO.

Edited by Skitso
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I can only say you will need the Medikits / Advanced Medikits very often. So be happy to have them from Start on.

That the Advanced Medikits needs an Alien-Race about their special Secrets to produce them is an very cool Feature and not unimportant. Same on many other advanced / high Equipment Things for Soldiers, Vehicles, Weapons, Armors and so on.

That several Parts need more balancing we all know. That will be done after all missing Features / Equipments / Specials etc. get integrated. We will have that Balancing-theme for longer until the Game is completely finished. That I can say for sure.

 

Edited by Alienkiller
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On 10/28/2022 at 8:12 PM, Solver said:

Just wanted to reiterate this suggestion.

It makes sense that leaving the dropship is dangerous in itself, but the way things work now is a bit weird. You should kill any aliens that start right in front of the dropship but other than that, the optimal play on the first turn is just to skip the turn entirely and let aliens move. Then on the second turn, you can leave much more safely, while on the first turn any action has a higher risk of being met with reaction fire from aliens that are off to the sides.

This is already in the game, so it's probably worth thinking about what makes you assume it's not in the game. Maybe alien weapons have lower fire costs so they can still reaction fire on 50% TU, whereas they couldn't in X1?

Regarding the medikits - yeah, at the moment the starting ones are fairly powerful. I think we took the fixed heal cost approach to make it easier for the player to understand, and because visualising the different "fire modes" for the medikit would have required custom icons. But maybe that's the route we have to go down. The logic behind the 10 vs 20TU cost is that there's quite a few instances where I've had a bleeding soldier but not quite enough TU to reach and heal them before they die.

I wonder if a better idea would just be to have throwable healing grenades rather than an advanced medikit. They'd be much more flexible and forgiving of positioning, but would only be single use.

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22 minutes ago, Chris said:

I wonder if a better idea would just be to have throwable healing grenades rather than an advanced medikit. They'd be much more flexible and forgiving of positioning, but would only be single use.

 

Healing too quickly and easily reduces the adrenaline level in combat missions. If the player does not have any serious problems in battle and the player cannot face unusual situations in battle, then how can the player get adrenaline in such battles?

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I wanted to provide my feedback on my 270ish day campaign where I am fighting battleships but have yet to do a ground mission with them. From the top I want to say that I am not a good player at these kind of games and I am here more for the atmosphere and emergent narrative then for a tactical combat simulator.

 

  • The text in the game is too dry. When I research a new tech or shoot down a new UFO I don't care about how thick the armor is or strong the new torpedo is, that data is useless and uninteresting to me without scientists/soldiers/engineers contextualizing it. For example as part of the laser weaponry research text the head scientist could mention that these are actually the second version of the laser rifles as the first version had a serious heat dissipation issue that Corporal Jacobs learned first hand when he lost his pinky touching the battery after a full auto discharge. Or maybe there is an addendum to the plasma research saying that plasma grenades are perfect for 'digging' new latrines. We are dealing with first contact and a massive technological advancement, I want to feel that human wonder, excitement, and fear coming through to the people most directly involved in it.
  • The little text blurb on a technology in the research menu needs to give a better idea of what you will get out of the research. The plasma research is a great example where I was under the impression that I would unlock tier 3 weapons but that was actually from fusion research which came later.
  • Medals are a great idea but are barely relevant narratively or mechanically. It would be more interesting if they gave effects like bleed resistance, psychic resistance, quicker healing, etc to better represent the specific circumstances that the soldiers earned those medals and help make them feel like like clones or androids.
  • I love the new mission. It encourages more aggressive play and is a great palette cleanser from the regular missions. The extra reward for clearing more tubes isn't nearly worth it though, it would be great if you got a more valuable resource than alloy and you were better rewarded for your 7-9th tube instead of it just being a flat rate.
  • Alien base and larger ufo missions not fun to play, partially because they take too long and you are so heavily punished for not playing slow and steady but also because the teleporters turn the end of all those missions into a Mexican standoff. Maybe there is some clever gameplay option I am missing but the end of those missions often feel like a roll of the dice as to whether I can flash bang the aliens before they kill a soldier with reaction fire.
  • I miss stun smoke grenades. Yeah it was probably too easy to throw them in a ship and knock out the last few aliens but now the best option is the bring a bunch of snipers and shoot them out range like it's an execution via firing squad. It is still as unengaging a strategy but is less fun imo.
  • Manual air combat is not fun or interesting. Torpedoes are by far the best option which means neither you nor the enemy can dodge so you just fly towards each other and let loose your weapons. The closest thing to skill is pressing the retreat button right after you've fired your last weapons so you take as little extra damage as possible. Autoresolve has it's own problems where if you don't have the firepower to shoot down the UFO you will always end up out of fuel and given the long rearm and refit times for aircraft it essentially guarantees you will never get a second shot at that ship.
  • Air combat with multiple enemy ships can get wonky. If at the start of air combat I tell one of my fighters to target a different ship there is a chance they will never fire their torpedoes at anyone. I've yet to find a pattern to it but it makes air combat even less fun.
  • Rifles and sniper rifles seem by far the best weapons. I used two shotgunners as scouts and while they were occasionally clutch at killing the massive Sebillian bastards I know I would have been better off with a Mars vehicle and lots of rifles out of LOS of the aliens. machine guns might actually be worse as not only was their aim terrible but once I hit laser weaponry they seemed duty bound to blow up every vehicle, gas station, wall, soldier etc etc between their target and themselves. I think I lost more men to their file than the aliens.
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8 hours ago, Chris said:

This is already in the game, so it's probably worth thinking about what makes you assume it's not in the game. Maybe alien weapons have lower fire costs so they can still reaction fire on 50% TU, whereas they couldn't in X1?

This is interesting! Even after your post I'm not convinced it's actually in (as in working). Aliens can fire at 50% TU, which I'm aware of because they can fire while suppressed, but I've seen aliens fire multiple shots on turn 1, which makes me doubt that this is working as intended.

I don't know what the solution is here. 4 times out of 5, things work fine. There's smoke, there's multiple exits from the dropship, everything is fine. But occasionally, and this is especially once larger UFOs show up (and the map gets more crowded) you get an alien looking at the side of the dropship, another looking at the main ramp and then any attempt to shoot, throw smoke or do anything at all results in reaction fire right into the dropship, which feels more frustrating than honestly challenging.

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10 hours ago, Chris said:

Regarding the medikits - yeah, at the moment the starting ones are fairly powerful. I think we took the fixed heal cost approach to make it easier for the player to understand, and because visualising the different "fire modes" for the medikit would have required custom icons. But maybe that's the route we have to go down. The logic behind the 10 vs 20TU cost is that there's quite a few instances where I've had a bleeding soldier but not quite enough TU to reach and heal them before they die.

I propose to make sure that soldiers with stripes (medals) for injuries can provide medical care to others faster and better. I believe that the awards (medals) in the game should give the soldiers more bonuses of all kinds.

For example:

Service Medal ( "Awarded for active participation in ten combat missions."):       +1 to the soldier's visibility radius;  

Long Service Medal ("Awarded for active participation in twenty combat missions."):      +2 to the soldier's visibility radius;

Distinguished Service Medal ("Awarded for active participation in thirty combat missions."):     + 3 to the soldier's visibility radius;

Military Cross ("Awarded for eliminating five alien combatants in a single operation." [Kill at least 5 aliens in a single ground combat mission.] )      +5% chance of critical damage

The number of awards must be increased

Edited by Komandos
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On 11/13/2022 at 6:23 PM, Solver said:

This is interesting! Even after your post I'm not convinced it's actually in (as in working). Aliens can fire at 50% TU, which I'm aware of because they can fire while suppressed, but I've seen aliens fire multiple shots on turn 1, which makes me doubt that this is working as intended.

I don't know what the solution is here. 4 times out of 5, things work fine. There's smoke, there's multiple exits from the dropship, everything is fine. But occasionally, and this is especially once larger UFOs show up (and the map gets more crowded) you get an alien looking at the side of the dropship, another looking at the main ramp and then any attempt to shoot, throw smoke or do anything at all results in reaction fire right into the dropship, which feels more frustrating than honestly challenging.

Just checked and looks like it's set to 60% TU rather than 50%. I'll bump it down and see if it makes a difference.

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On 11/13/2022 at 3:26 PM, Twigg said:

I wanted to provide my feedback on my 270ish day campaign where I am fighting battleships but have yet to do a ground mission with them. From the top I want to say that I am not a good player at these kind of games and I am here more for the atmosphere and emergent narrative then for a tactical combat simulator.

 

  • The text in the game is too dry. When I research a new tech or shoot down a new UFO I don't care about how thick the armor is or strong the new torpedo is, that data is useless and uninteresting to me without scientists/soldiers/engineers contextualizing it. For example as part of the laser weaponry research text the head scientist could mention that these are actually the second version of the laser rifles as the first version had a serious heat dissipation issue that Corporal Jacobs learned first hand when he lost his pinky touching the battery after a full auto discharge. Or maybe there is an addendum to the plasma research saying that plasma grenades are perfect for 'digging' new latrines. We are dealing with first contact and a massive technological advancement, I want to feel that human wonder, excitement, and fear coming through to the people most directly involved in it.
  • The little text blurb on a technology in the research menu needs to give a better idea of what you will get out of the research. The plasma research is a great example where I was under the impression that I would unlock tier 3 weapons but that was actually from fusion research which came later.
  • Medals are a great idea but are barely relevant narratively or mechanically. It would be more interesting if they gave effects like bleed resistance, psychic resistance, quicker healing, etc to better represent the specific circumstances that the soldiers earned those medals and help make them feel like like clones or androids.
  • I love the new mission. It encourages more aggressive play and is a great palette cleanser from the regular missions. The extra reward for clearing more tubes isn't nearly worth it though, it would be great if you got a more valuable resource than alloy and you were better rewarded for your 7-9th tube instead of it just being a flat rate.
  • Alien base and larger ufo missions not fun to play, partially because they take too long and you are so heavily punished for not playing slow and steady but also because the teleporters turn the end of all those missions into a Mexican standoff. Maybe there is some clever gameplay option I am missing but the end of those missions often feel like a roll of the dice as to whether I can flash bang the aliens before they kill a soldier with reaction fire.
  • I miss stun smoke grenades. Yeah it was probably too easy to throw them in a ship and knock out the last few aliens but now the best option is the bring a bunch of snipers and shoot them out range like it's an execution via firing squad. It is still as unengaging a strategy but is less fun imo.
  • Manual air combat is not fun or interesting. Torpedoes are by far the best option which means neither you nor the enemy can dodge so you just fly towards each other and let loose your weapons. The closest thing to skill is pressing the retreat button right after you've fired your last weapons so you take as little extra damage as possible. Autoresolve has it's own problems where if you don't have the firepower to shoot down the UFO you will always end up out of fuel and given the long rearm and refit times for aircraft it essentially guarantees you will never get a second shot at that ship.
  • Air combat with multiple enemy ships can get wonky. If at the start of air combat I tell one of my fighters to target a different ship there is a chance they will never fire their torpedoes at anyone. I've yet to find a pattern to it but it makes air combat even less fun.
  • Rifles and sniper rifles seem by far the best weapons. I used two shotgunners as scouts and while they were occasionally clutch at killing the massive Sebillian bastards I know I would have been better off with a Mars vehicle and lots of rifles out of LOS of the aliens. machine guns might actually be worse as not only was their aim terrible but once I hit laser weaponry they seemed duty bound to blow up every vehicle, gas station, wall, soldier etc etc between their target and themselves. I think I lost more men to their file than the aliens.

Thanks. A couple of thoughts of my own:

  • Regarding the first point about the writing, did you feel like it was more engaging in Xenonauts 1?
  • The point about the bigger UFOs and alien base missions, again, same question really. That to me sounds like a general complaint about the combat mechanics of the genre which applies as much to X1/X2 as the classic X-Com games and the Firaxis XCOM. Without a timer on the mission the incentive is always for people to play extremely slowly using a lot of overwatch as they advance, which is why XCOM2 used so many timed missions. Unfortunately players tend to hate timers; even the very soft timer in the abduction mission has already caused a few complaints and I'm sure people would be even more annoyed if the soft timers were added to every mission. I'm therefore not really sure what we could do to address this, although I'm happy to listen to suggestions on the topic.
  • What in particular annoys you about teleporters - just that they take your soldiers to locations where they are exposed to reaction fire, which causes losses? I don't think rotating causes reaction fire so you should be able to scope out the room and take one action (e.g. a flashbang or an attack) before the aliens fire back at you. I feel like shields, smoke grenades and shotguns can all be useful in this situation to either mitigate reaction fire or kill aliens before they get to attack. Any thoughts on that?
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3 minutes ago, Chris said:

Unfortunately players tend to hate timers; even the very soft timer in the abduction mission has already caused a few complaints and I'm sure people would be even more annoyed if the soft timers were added to every mission. I'm therefore not really sure what we could do to address this, although I'm happy to listen to suggestions on the topic.

On combat missions (where a UFO landed on the ground on its own), a timer would be appropriate if the aliens tried to return to their UFO, get into a UFO, spend several rounds (turn) to prepare for takeoff and take off.

If the player gives the aliens the opportunity to evacuate, then the combat mission will end in nothing. (the UFO capture mission was not successfully completed).

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12 minutes ago, Chris said:

What in particular annoys you about teleporters - just that they take your soldiers to locations where they are exposed to reaction fire, which causes losses? I don't think rotating causes reaction fire so you should be able to scope out the room and take one action (e.g. a flashbang or an attack) before the aliens fire back at you. I feel like shields, smoke grenades and shotguns can all be useful in this situation to either mitigate reaction fire or kill aliens before they get to attack. Any thoughts on that?

You can put a valuable artifact in the alien room. If the player does not dare to storm a room with a valuable artifact for a long time (the player is afraid of losing his soldiers), then the aliens blow up (destroy) both themselves and the valuable artifact. If a player takes a risk, he should be rewarded. If the player refuses the risk, the player loses the reward.

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16 minutes ago, Chris said:

The point about the bigger UFOs and alien base missions, again, same question really. That to me sounds like a general complaint about the combat mechanics of the genre which applies as much to X1/X2 as the classic X-Com games and the Firaxis XCOM. Without a timer on the mission the incentive is always for people to play extremely slowly using a lot of overwatch as they advance, which is why XCOM2 used so many timed missions. Unfortunately players tend to hate timers; even the very soft timer in the abduction mission has already caused a few complaints and I'm sure people would be even more annoyed if the soft timers were added to every mission. I'm therefore not really sure what we could do to address this, although I'm happy to listen to suggestions on the topic.

I am an avid fire emblem player. I have played both fire emblem games that encourages slowly taking out enemies on enemy phase and games that encourages taking out enemies on player phase. The main differemce between the two is primarily the difference in enemy quality and slightly nerfing player options on enemy phase.

Generally, a great increase in enemy quality will force the player to make great strides into assasinating the enemies on player phase and to be more agressive in general. The best example of this is in Fe fates conquest, where a nerf to some of the most popular enemy phase weapons and an increase in enemy stats and skills caused players to play it completely different than the previously release fe game. 

I am not sure if this will directly apply to Xen 2 or not, but nerfing overwatch fire slightly (by reducing damage or reducing accuracy) and slightly buffing enemy abilities should make players play more agressively on their turn because using overwatch fire to kill an alien on their turn is riskier and player phase combat will be inherenetly more reliable. 

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4 minutes ago, Kamehamehayes said:

and slightly buffing enemy abilities should make players play more agressively on their turn

By forcing the player to play more aggressively, you force the player to take more risks. More risk means more casualties among the soldiers. It's easy to take risks when the player has a lot of soldiers in battle. When there are few soldiers and the loss of even one: this is the loss of 15-20% of all personnel. (And 15-20% of all combat experience earned by the tactical group on combat missions).

If you force the player to: risk a lot of combat experience (which is expensive), in exchange for a small part of the resources, then such a game will not seem friendly to beginners. (For players who do not have enough gaming experience to correctly assess tactical risks).

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20 minutes ago, Kamehamehayes said:

I am not sure if this will directly apply to Xen 2 or not, but nerfing overwatch fire slightly (by reducing damage or reducing accuracy) and slightly buffing enemy abilities should make players play more agressively on their turn because using overwatch fire to kill an alien on their turn is riskier and player phase combat will be inherenetly more reliable. 

I think it would be correct to add a parameter such as "evasion". The faster the unit moves, the harder it is to hit it. This means that it is easier to get into a combat unit that did not move in the last round (turn) than into a combat unit that spent all its AP (movement points) on moving around the terrain (it will be difficult to get into such a unit). The difficulty of aiming at a unit (shooting accuracy) should depend on how much AP the unit has spent on movement before. This also applies to the "overwatch" feature. The more AP a unit has spent on movement, the harder it will be for it to get into it.

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1 hour ago, Chris said:

Thanks. A couple of thoughts of my own:

  • Regarding the first point about the writing, did you feel like it was more engaging in Xenonauts 1?
  • The point about the bigger UFOs and alien base missions, again, same question really. That to me sounds like a general complaint about the combat mechanics of the genre which applies as much to X1/X2 as the classic X-Com games and the Firaxis XCOM. Without a timer on the mission the incentive is always for people to play extremely slowly using a lot of overwatch as they advance, which is why XCOM2 used so many timed missions. Unfortunately players tend to hate timers; even the very soft timer in the abduction mission has already caused a few complaints and I'm sure people would be even more annoyed if the soft timers were added to every mission. I'm therefore not really sure what we could do to address this, although I'm happy to listen to suggestions on the topic.
  • What in particular annoys you about teleporters - just that they take your soldiers to locations where they are exposed to reaction fire, which causes losses? I don't think rotating causes reaction fire so you should be able to scope out the room and take one action (e.g. a flashbang or an attack) before the aliens fire back at you. I feel like shields, smoke grenades and shotguns can all be useful in this situation to either mitigate reaction fire or kill aliens before they get to attack. Any thoughts on that?

 

  • I don't think the writing in X1 was any more engaging but I viewed that game through a different lens. The fact that X1 exists and is as good as it is was impressive and I was happy to have it warts and all. X2 feels like an evolution from that solid framework and I am hoping the atmosphere and narrative improves like the mechanics are from 1 to 2. I want the soldiers, engineers, scientists, and pilots to feel more like characters in my story and less like lines of code if that makes sense. I will say that the music is phenomenal at bringing about that oppressive atmosphere, just loading up the menu gets me pumped to play them game and lose so many soldiers due to poor decisions.
  • I hated them in X1, between the psychic powers and the incredible range of the wraith snipers it really sucked the fun out of the game. I think I beat the campaign only a handful of times in my 200+ hours in the game as once I got to that point I would consider the campaign 'done'. X2 is much better in that regard (though I am not sure if psychic powers do anything yet), I think I am just looking for an incentive not to overwatch creep. Something as simple as a sliding scale of extra research progress based on how few turns it took you to take a larger ship or alien base would be great. I would love a good reason to load everyone up with shotguns and go buck wild running around an alien base.
  • I think it is the rng nature of the portal rooms that bothers me the most. Sometimes there are 3 aliens with only one facing the teleporter, sometimes there are 5 all of which are waiting for you to blink before they unload into you. The close quarters nature means even if you drop a smoke right on top of you you're still likely to get hit with reaction fire. As part of my new campaign I am running shield soldiers and not using missiles/torpedoes so maybe they will help but given the very limited covering arc of shields and the likelihood aliens will be on all sides of a teleporter entrance I don't think it will make it less frustrating.
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When you have researched the Regenerative tissue you can then build the advanced med kit, but it don't carry over to the other bases you build, as they can only use the original med kit, and the Advanced is not shown so you can't supply it to the troops in the other bases.

Edited by Ruggerman
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On 11/16/2022 at 1:12 PM, Twigg said:

I think it is the rng nature of the portal rooms that bothers me the most. Sometimes there are 3 aliens with only one facing the teleporter, sometimes there are 5 all of which are waiting for you to blink before they unload into you. The close quarters nature means even if you drop a smoke right on top of you you're still likely to get hit with reaction fire. As part of my new campaign I am running shield soldiers and not using missiles/torpedoes so maybe they will help but given the very limited covering arc of shields and the likelihood aliens will be on all sides of a teleporter entrance I don't think it will make it less frustrating.

This save perfectly encapsulates my issue with alien bases.

  • Not only are there 5 aliens covering roughly 3 sides (so the only direction I won't get fired on is from behind) but even with smoke I am guaranteed to get suppressed and quite likely killed. 
  • Shields would only help against a single side and even then they would have to be something that made it through the rest of the combat in the alien base intact. 
  • Also my soldiers outside the teleporter room can get suppressed by shots aimed at my soldiers inside the teleporter room which would be hilarious if it wasn't so frustrating to deal with. I am hoping this is a bug as otherwise I will need to keep my soldiers even farther away from the teleporter which leaves me with less TUs tp deal with the aliens.
  • I haven't yet taken down battleships so maybe this will change but this is the only situation where I am expected to kill/incapacitate 5 aliens in a single turn and this is on top of running the gauntlet of their full TUs of reaction fire. Let me throw a grenade through the teleporter or send a scarecrow with armor in to absorb some of their reaction fire.

There is definitely a bug with air targeting, using short range weapons like laser cannons makes it easy to spot. Basically one or more ships will refuse to fire on their target within their weapons range even though the weapon has ammo and is set for firing. The ship will still follow the enemy so I know it is still targeting it but there is no firing of the weapon. I can tell it is going to happen as the fighter that the bug affects always moves much faster in air combat then the other fighters in the wing. It doesn't seem to happen consistently but I am trying to get a save that it happens more often then not.

auto_groundcombat_turn_30_start-301.json

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On 11/18/2022 at 5:40 PM, Twigg said:

This save perfectly encapsulates my issue with alien bases.

  • Not only are there 5 aliens covering roughly 3 sides (so the only direction I won't get fired on is from behind) but even with smoke I am guaranteed to get suppressed and quite likely killed. 
  • Shields would only help against a single side and even then they would have to be something that made it through the rest of the combat in the alien base intact. 
  • Also my soldiers outside the teleporter room can get suppressed by shots aimed at my soldiers inside the teleporter room which would be hilarious if it wasn't so frustrating to deal with. I am hoping this is a bug as otherwise I will need to keep my soldiers even farther away from the teleporter which leaves me with less TUs tp deal with the aliens.
  • I haven't yet taken down battleships so maybe this will change but this is the only situation where I am expected to kill/incapacitate 5 aliens in a single turn and this is on top of running the gauntlet of their full TUs of reaction fire. Let me throw a grenade through the teleporter or send a scarecrow with armor in to absorb some of their reaction fire.

There is definitely a bug with air targeting, using short range weapons like laser cannons makes it easy to spot. Basically one or more ships will refuse to fire on their target within their weapons range even though the weapon has ammo and is set for firing. The ship will still follow the enemy so I know it is still targeting it but there is no firing of the weapon. I can tell it is going to happen as the fighter that the bug affects always moves much faster in air combat then the other fighters in the wing. It doesn't seem to happen consistently but I am trying to get a save that it happens more often then not.

auto_groundcombat_turn_30_start-301.json 2.51 MB · 0 downloads

Thanks, you providing a save along with your comment is very helpful. I certainly see what you mean. There's a few issues at play here:

  • I'm wondering if the difficulty curve of the game might be slightly off here, as you're facing an Eternal and two Wraiths with fusion weapons and you're only equipped with lasers and Guardian / Warden armour. Part of this is that Gauss weapons are missing in v24 so you're limited in your choice of weapon but you should probably be wearing Exosuits / Stealthsuits when fighting this level of enemy, because fusion weapons are extremely powerful against mid-tier armour. Something for me to think about during campaign balancing.
  • Yeah, you're right that the layout is pretty unforgiving when coupled with the enemies having weapons that will one-shot-kill you. I'll update the command room to make it wider and put teleporters at either side of the room so you have more tactical options.
  • I've actually realised we only have three alien base maps in the game, and they are all designed for small bases. I think I need to make some larger maps for the late-game bases, with more expansive command rooms. You shouldn't be encountering an Eternal in a room the size of a phonebox.
  • Yeah, suppression should not be being applied through a solid floor. That's a pretty silly bug that we'll get fixed.

Hopefully that'll make these missions a bit more fun from V25 onwards.

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