Gorlom Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Where is the original text the topic of this thread refers to btw? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khall Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 http://www.xenonauts.com/category/news/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 nice avatar khall ^^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khall Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Thanks, got bored and was looking for something to do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detrius Posted August 10, 2012 Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 I see we have moved on to the area of pre-owned games. An area Chris did not say anything about. Maybe for good reasons. Pre-owned games is a hard nut to crack. The laws and common sense says you should be able to resell something. That said it does however weaken the financial situation of game developers. None of the cashflow of pre-owned games ends up in the pockets of those that actually made the product. We do not actually have to discuss this in regards to xenonauts because there is no DRM, hence no restraints. Back in the days when I pirated myself I spent a lot of money on games as well. I can not ethically defend my piracy. I can and have however stopped pirating. I do not want to point fingers and say "Thou shall not Pirate". I have however found that many of the people around me have a low threshold for pirating. The easy access make them pirates without them making any ehtical checks. That is something I would like to see changed. We have to be aware that someone have put a lot off effort into making a product, and taking it without compensating them is wrong. I want to help raise this kind of awareness. Maybe this is my way of repenting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoes Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Of course, a small number of people genuinely cannot afford a video game. In that case, pirating the game is a bit less morally wrong than if you could afford it. But, seriously, why not just ask the developer for a free copy? Reminds me of when I wanted to host a LAN party at the school where I teach for the game Achron. Time travelling RTS, no one would have a skill advantage over another because the mechanics would be so foreign. I asked Chris Hazard if I could have temporary copies of the game for the students, instead he sent me 40 copies of the game, knowing my LAN would only turn up 10 or 20 people at most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Caine Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 (edited) Everyone else has said everything I could possibly say on this... so humour! Or as Cracked likes to call it: 6 hilarious ways game designers are screwing with pirates. Edited August 11, 2012 by Max_Caine addded word "as" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thothkins Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 brilliant! you wonder why every game doesn't do something like this. Being outed as a pirate online with screen shots, while probably violating a number of laws, is hilarious. The pirates won't mind. After all, it's not stealing is it... So, obviously the question is... what Xenonaut related things could you put in the game to stop Cap'n Pirate. - The image at the end of the first month has a table of men with alien heads. Every nation has been taken over and it's game over for you. - Your name, location and your (hopefully) fictitious interest of alien p0rn is uploaded to the net for all to see, much like the one in the article. - On turn 1 all of the ammo in the Chinook explodes. The weapon-less, wounded survivors can now take on the aliens. - On your second intercept (because the first should show you how cool the game actually is) all of your planes turn into biplanes and are promptly crushed by a Light Scout. - Having completed your first mission, the Chinook returns to base. Except the base either vanishes, has been taken over by aliens, or a dialogue box appears saying that it has been taken over by Pirate Bay. - Unable to bear the shame of your illegal activities, all of the Buddhist civilians run into the nearest flames, ruining every score you have. - The game, suspecting you may be wearing an eye patch, never allows you that key piece of research you need to unlock the alien technology. Weeks go by, and hundreds of missions, before the truth begins to sink in. - On turn 1, all of the aliens are lined up outside and do the can can to your new altered music hall soundtrack. The aliens cannot be killed and the menu option is disabled. - All of your troops stats are set to 1, meaning that they can't pick up a rifle let alone shoot something with it. Turbulance in the Chinook can kill off most of your squad as their health is so low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 I think some of those are great, especially the last one. That is my kind of evil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diebagger Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 As someone who writes software for a living, I understand both sides of the coin... Personally I don't really care. People who can and want to buy stuff will do so. The worst thing you can do is to screw these people (your customers) over just so you can make it harder for those who won't buy it (read: make it harder, you won't ever "win" this battle). Who gives a shit if some kids or students with no money enjoy your game also, you won't get any money for them (now) anyways. Make a good product for a reasonable price and people will buy it. OT: I find it kinda amusing that a developer who just got 150.000 $ from the community (me included) for the sheer promise to write a game takes such offense of this matter. Old-fashioned way of writing games: you write a game, publish it, people go to the stores and buy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 In my opinion the only way to 'win' against pirates is for people to stop defending what they do. They are stealing. It is easy to steal and hard to stop them but that isn't the same as not stealing. They aren't robin hood taking from the evil rich to give to the starving poor. They are taking something they don't need from the hard working for their own enjoyment. My only real issue is with software companies who treat me (and other paying customers) as criminals while the pirates get a nice free ride. I am not really sure how accepting pre payments should change views of piracy. If he had accepted payments without any intention of making the game promised then I guess that is kind of similar to taking a game without intention to pay for it. Otherwise I am not really sure what your OT point was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diebagger Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 In my opinion the only way to 'win' against pirates is for people to stop defending what they do.They are stealing. It is easy to steal and hard to stop them but that isn't the same as not stealing. See that's the whole point, it isn't. It is illegal (and wrong) but it is NOT stealing. It's copyright infringement and that is something fundamentally different. You can't compare using a software without permission with an actual theft. If I play a cracked version of Xenonauts (which I don't since I have pledged on kickstarter), Chris still has all the source code. I also didn't take away the game from any other player... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Of course it's stealing. You are taking something, without paying for it, when you legally have to pay for it. Just because there isn't a physical product doesn't make it any less than theft. Just because you aren't depriving anyone of what you are stealing doesn't make it any less than theft. It's just that the stupid car analogy doesn't work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedrog Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 you can call it stealing, ilegal, morally wrong, etc. But for me its not about judgement, this kind of judging and moral super truths don't work for me. I think we have in common is: *We want all software developers to be paid fairly and live a good life, has any human being on the planet in whatever work he does Does piracy stop this from happening? I think sometimes it helps, advertising the product. You can repeat a thousand times its stealing its stealing, its wrong, its wrong... what does that matter? Robin Hood also stealed and still is a popular guy. You shouldn't be so square about things because you want to win arguments... People who are pirating don't care so much about your moral good boy arguments. And copying hurts more record companies and distribuitors than actual developers. Personally I have no much need for all this big industry. I think we should be looking at every case a different case, and analise and think for yourself and I leave a video for you all: http://www.freakonomics.com/2012/04/02/copying-is-not-theft/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vivisector 9999 Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 You can repeat a thousand times its stealing its stealing, its wrong, its wrong... what does that matter?Robin Hood also stealed and still is a popular guy. And again with the stupid half-assed analogies! The game companies aren't the Sheriff of Nottingham, taxing and oppressing the shit out of us, and software pirates aren't Robin Hood and his merry fucking men standing up to them. Is DRM annoying? Sure. Are a lot of those big studio $60 games totally not worth the price? Again, sure. But you know something? If you don't like it when games do that, then you don't have to buy them. Wow. You dodged the bullet, and you didn't even have to deprive a creator of their rightful due in the process. Don't act self-righteous with that retarded "Nuh uh, moral good boy! It's free advertising! Think for yourself!" attitude if you choose otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedrog Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 hey calm down vivisector! Listen its not an analogy, its a comparising (or whatever it is in english). There is no need to be so slave to the letter, try to read what im trying to say, there is no cup to win in the end of the forum. And maybe i can be stupid and retarded but I believe we live in such stupid world sometimes it could be an honor to be called that. What i meant is that something for being ilegal its not necessarily bad. And there are situations that stealing or copying is for me moraly justified. Im not comparing robin hood kind of stealing to pirating in all aspects of the thing. Its the same with borrowing the car comparising, it was not an analogy. Because somebody in the forum was saying it was stealing like borrowing someone's car without consent, I think if you are comparing it with be more right to say it is with consent because somebody that has the copy of the game makes possible for others to have it. Also the idea that because somepeople are loosing money with it, does not justify to make it ilegal, has would for be certain things that we share with each other it with be annoying to make it ilegal just because somebody is not profiting with it. I the point I was meaning about free advertising it was not for consumers but for developers. Sometimes the fact that people can pirate. but look at this article i think it is interesting for discussion: http://torrentfreak.com/artists-dont-think-piracy-hurts-them-financially-110412/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diebagger Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Of course it's stealing. You are taking something, without paying for it, when you legally have to pay for it. Just because there isn't a physical product doesn't make it any less than theft. Just because you aren't depriving anyone of what you are stealing doesn't make it any less than theft.It's just that the stupid car analogy doesn't work. This is the same as applying laws and rules that have been created for letters to email and other digital conversation, it doesn't work because it isn't the same. And then again it isn't (not even by law) stealing, it is (again with this strange word) copyright infringement. Well, why do I even bother discussing this in some random forum on a sunday afternoon, gonna let this rest and enjoy my weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 (edited) This is the same as applying laws and rules that have been created for letters to email and other digital conversation, it doesn't work because it isn't the same. And then again it isn't (not even by law) stealing, it is (again with this strange word) copyright infringement. Well, why do I even bother discussing this in some random forum on a sunday afternoon, gonna let this rest and enjoy my weekend. Funny that in industrial espionage cases copying is still considered "information theft" in America. For some reason it's not theft when stealing things that are not supposed to be secrets, but still isn't given out freely? What about identity theft? Is that not theft? Surely the person that got his or her identity stolen must still know who he or she is? The identity isn't missing, is it? But the concept is all the same clearly named as theft. Why is the definition of stealing (to take something without right or permission) suspended just because what is taken isn't missing? In economic terms, intellectual property is non-rival, whereas tangible property is rival. As a result, the “piracy” of intellectual property is simply not the same sort of zero-sum game that car theft — or theft of any tangible property — is. And that means that when Hollywood or the U.S. government says that music or movie downloaders are “pirates” or “thieves,” they are indulging in a bit of loose rhetoric This very sentence is a pile of very loose rhetoric. Just because it isn't the same zero-sum game doesn't magically make it stop being theft. You are still taking something without right or permission ie stealing. Theft is the act of stealing. Doesn't matter if you stole it by copying it or if you stole it at gunpoint. The meaning of the words is flexible enough to encompass both meanings. Godamn stupid semantics argument. Edited August 12, 2012 by Gorlom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingdisc Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Stepping back from some of the discussion, I just wanted to respond to Chris' original blog post. I personally think that pirating games is morally wrong. I would admit that I have copied stuff when I was younger (eye of the beholder II?). I don't think I was in the moral right when I did so. From what I gather, Chris has put his life savings and future financial security on the line, where he could have stayed with that safe salaried job. I respect those who have ideas and who risk this to see their dream realised. To think that those like Chris may fail more often than otherwise, because people thought it was ok not to pay, annoys me. We would be in a much, much poorer world, where this happened (one where only the big AAA publishers with their partial DRM protection, and endless repeats of the SAME boring formulas, would survive). And that sucks! I hate the increasing imposition of DRM (stopping my playing without the cd in the actual drive, stopping me moving my copy over to my new machine when the old one dies, etc) and admit to grudging respect for those who work around these restrictions. But when it comes to small indies - I want them to have protection because I want them to exist. Leaving aside those who pirate because they can't afford anything other - I suspect that most games are pirated because a torrent is the least hassle way to play a game (no credit card needed for random website, no long wait for Amazon's copy to be posted). I think Steam (who's principles on restricting how I use games that I own, I dislike) can actually be a good thing as it minimises the barrier to buying the game => more people pay the developer. Ultimately, if we want a culture where small indies make interesting games than I think we each need to be clear that not paying for a copy of the game (while very easy) is morally wrong. That I was morally in the wrong when, yes, I did this too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUbiquitous Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Piracy is wrong. DRM is expensive. DRM is unpopular, even among the legit buyers. Pirates don't care --- they'll crack it anyway. To prevent this, DRM gets even more expensive. Therefore: For indie devs who can't afford it with the cash or the fanbase, it doesn't make sense to do DRM to prevent piracy. Anything else to the DRM discussion on this forum is supplemental, really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Giggles Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 I believe their is one grey area that we have not touched what about abandoned ware or games that are not being sold anymore but are still copyrighted or games that you can't get any other way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUbiquitous Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Regarding copyrighted games not sold but whose copyright is still valid, you have two options. 1. Buy an old copy, even if you can't run it, and then download the version that works. 2. Suffer without. But because you will, unfortunately, die from not playing this game, good luck with No. 1! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 stuff If you were having to steal from a supermarket to feed your children, or the only way you could pay your exorbitant rent and keep your family housed was to do a spot of shoplifting, then I could agree that you are stuck in a moral grey area where the best thing is not necessarily the legal thing. I don't really equate that same moral ambiguity with 'I want this completely optional game that is in no way essential to my life, I can steal this game easily without getting caught, I will steal this game'. The same people would be less likely to take a game if they had to risk walking in to a shop and taking a boxed copy. After all those boxes and disks probably only cost pennies to make and there are millions more where it came from so you are really unlikely to be taking anything away from anyone but the big evil publisher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vivisector 9999 Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 hey calm down vivisector! Yeah, all right, maybe my post came off as more hostile than was truly necessary. I just feel that it's in seriously poor taste to come onto an indie developer's forum and try to defend piracy. Chris England and his crew aren't one of those big, evil publishers who demand $60 for their latest bloated cookie-cutter game while they're cramming invasive DRM up your ass. He quit his job and put up his life savings for this project, and even though his kickstarter campaign was very successful, he's still one of the "little guys". I wouldn't steal Xenonauts even if I were a software pirate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedrog Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Yeah, all right, maybe my post came off as more hostile than was truly necessary. I just feel that it's in seriously poor taste to come onto an indie developer's forum and try to defend piracy. Chris England and his crew aren't one of those big, evil publishers who demand $60 for their latest bloated cookie-cutter game while they're cramming invasive DRM up your ass. He quit his job and put up his life savings for this project, and even though his kickstarter campaign was very successful, he's still one of the "little guys". I wouldn't steal Xenonauts even if I were a software pirate. I never implied that you should pirate xenonauts, or any indie game, actually I paid for xenonauts. I was talking about big industry. I never said it was ethical to pirate every game. The same with stealing in some big multinational supermarket or the local small bussiness grocery, they are two completelly different things! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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