Damage Resistance

[thothkins]

Probably one that was to be tweaked in Beta, but are there any thoughts around making each of the races a little more or less vulnerable to certain types of damage.

Back in EU, certain damage types would provide a little bonus when used against certain foes. It added a slight edge to keeping your weapon options versatile.

As it currently stands, all alien armour (within each race and rank) has the same level of resistance to Kinetic, Energy, Chemical and Incendiary i.e. your Caesian non combatant has the same values for each of the four damage types provided.

For example, would Incendiary ammo be more effective against Sebilians as it cauterises the wounds preventing their rapid healing ability?

To balance this, perhaps they should have slightly higher resistance to Kinetic attacks, representing their tough scaly hides (more than is currently given)

[Max_Caine]

I agree this is something probably for the beta, but what kind of vulnerabilities would you suggest for the "known" races (Caesians, Sebillians, Androns + terror drone)? They don't have to be exact values, but given starting equipment and item progression, what would you suggest?

[thothkins]

It made a little tougher by the few damage choices available. But taking into account waepons. Some ideas:-

As mentioned, incendiary weapons against the Sebillians - the on it's way flame thrower could be extra useful here.

Electromagnetic weaponry against all of the robots, including Androns. However, there should come a stage after the inclusion of such devices where you start to come up against shielded versions. That would add in more work to the game.

Another use for Electromagnetic weapons would be against the Caesians. The reasoning here being that strong electro magnetic fields (according to some - people living away from phone masts, builders of ganzfield chambers) disrupting psi abilities for some of them. This could be applied to any other races that use psi abilities.

AP against Androns would be yet another idea, although if the chem damage is something that eats through their armour then weapons doing that would also be an option. If it's just representing napalm then no.

Lots of options It is however, a balance, and the idea isn't to simply weaken the aliens. They should be compensated in other areas.

So some summary thoughts (although there are loads of options)

Caesians - Weaker against EM weapons.

Androns - Weaker against AP ammo. Stronger against others.

Sebillians - Weaker against flame weapons.

Scuttlers - Weaker against Energy weapons.

Reapers - Weaker against being nuked from orbit where it safe (hopefully) to attack them from. "Bishop? Is that a noise from the dropship?"

[Gauddlike]

Not sure Chris wanted to go down this route last time it was brought up.

It might detract from the 'higher tier is always better' type mechanic he is going for with the game.

Another problem could be the amount of resistance needed to make it work.

If the difference is small enough that higher tier is still always better damage then you could safely ignore their weaknesses/ strengths altogether.

If that is the case why bother adding and balancing it?

You would need to either make stronger enemies progressively weaker to their weakness to a significant degree or steadily stronger against every other damage type, to the point where the new weapons were effectively useless.

You would then need to carry multiple damage types in each weapon type (laser and ballistic AR's etc) or risk leaving yourself with only a few troops who can effectively fight the enemy.

Remember that the tiers increase in base damage as well as damage type, for example:

Ballistic AR 25 damage, laser AR 40, plasma 60 (estimated).

To make an alien consistently weak to ballistic opposed to other tiers they would either need to take 40 more damage from ballistic or 20 less from laser and 40 less from plasma.

That is a massive damage increase for ballistic or a massive damage penalty to the other tiers for a small overall weakness, and that is without taking into account tier 4.

The easiest way to balance a resistance system would be to have all weapon tiers do (roughly) the same damage and have the resistance of the enemies change as you encounter higher ranks to make older weapons less effective.

That still sort of fits with the tier system as the enemies would be getting more resistant but maintain their specific weakness without seriously affecting other damage types.

They would always have lower resists to the more exotic damage types, after all that is why we developed those weapons, to exploit their weaknesses.

The new tiers would be more effective rather than just more damaging.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Gauddlike

[thothkins]

Not sure Chris wanted to go down this route last time it was brought up.

It might detract from the 'higher tier is always better' type mechanic he is going for with the game.

If there's sufficient gaps between the tiers, then there will be room for minor modifications in effectiveness.

Another problem could be the amount of resistance needed to make it work.

If the difference is small enough that higher tier is still always better damage then you could safely ignore their weaknesses/ strengths altogether.

If that is the case why bother adding and balancing it?

Yes, the higher tiers will always be a better option. It's more about making each type of weapon in each tier be a little mroe or less effective against certain foes, rather than creating a need to hold onto the tier before. I''m assuming that there will be advanced versions available for each weapon type here.

As for the why, it's to provide the player with reasons to use a varied weapon loadout. It's also because each rank in the game has their resistances listed, so it seems a shame not to put it to some use.

You would need to either make stronger enemies progressively weaker to their weakness to a significant degree or steadily stronger against every other damage type, to the point where the new weapons were effectively useless.

You would then need to carry multiple damage types in each weapon type (laser and ballistic AR's etc) or risk leaving yourself with only a few troops who can effectively fight the enemy.

Not really, as it's a minor change in the role of each weapon within a tier, rather than finding a way of weakening the enemy to ensure the continued effectiveness of a lower tier.

Remember that the tiers increase in base damage as well as damage type, for example:

Ballistic AR 25 damage, laser AR 40, plasma 60 (estimated).

To make an alien consistently weak to ballistic opposed to other tiers they would either need to take 40 more damage from ballistic or 20 less from laser and 40 less from plasma.

That is a massive damage increase for ballistic or a massive damage penalty to the other tiers for a small overall weakness, and that is without taking into account tier 4.

Yup, see where you're coming from, but again was trying to make the changes within each tier. So against a tier 3 flame thrower, the Sebililan is slightly less resistant than it would be against AP say. That relative same level of resistance would be carried forward intact to the next level.

The easiest way to balance a resistance system would be to have all weapon tiers do (roughly) the same damage and have the resistance of the enemies change as you encounter higher ranks to make older weapons less effective.

Yup, that's what I'd like too.

That still sort of fits with the tier system as the enemies would be getting more resistant but maintain their specific weakness without seriously affecting other damage types.

They would always have lower resists to the more exotic damage types, after all that is why we developed those weapons, to exploit their weaknesses.

The new tiers would be more effective rather than just more damaging.

and yup again.

[Gauddlike]

It's more about making each type of weapon in each tier be a little mroe or less effective against certain foes

Not really, as it's a minor change in the role of each weapon within a tier, rather than finding a way of weakening the enemy to ensure the continued effectiveness of a lower tier.

Yup, see where you're coming from, but again was trying to make the changes within each tier. So against a tier 3 flame thrower, the Sebililan is slightly less resistant than it would be against AP say. That relative same level of resistance would be carried forward intact to the next level.

But as practically all weapons within a tier do the same damage type that wouldn't be very effective by using damage resistance/weakness would it?

Of course you have the flamethrower and chemical weapons as unique damage types outside of the normal tier type but they usually belong to special weapons that already have roles that make them useful, without adding extra damage against certain enemy types.

Not saying it wouldn't be a good idea still, especially when you can start adding special ammo types.

[Gorlom]

I'd enjoy resistances in case anyone ever does a mod here you have diverging weapons tech.

Either upgrade ballistic technology to tier 2 > 3 > 4 or switch over to energy weapons and go through tier 2 > 3 > 4 with weapons loaded with batteries instead of magazines..

It's late and I'm not sure I make myself understood properly. Good night.

[thothkins]

But as practically all weapons within a tier do the same damage type that wouldn't be very effective by using damage resistance/weakness would it?

Of course you have the flamethrower and chemical weapons as unique damage types outside of the normal tier type but they usually belong to special weapons that already have roles that make them useful, without adding extra damage against certain enemy types.

Not saying it wouldn't be a good idea still, especially when you can start adding special ammo types.

You know when it's late and your typing away? you've a few points to cover and you end up forgetting one. Then you end up with that nagging feeling you've forgotten something. That was it right there, thanks Gauddlike

trotting down a different path there, especially as I used Flamethrower as an example. To work best it would really need to be a little more complex than "hey, all our weapons are now lasers or plasma based." It would , as mentioned either have to be one heck of a penalty to make an earlier tier different, or much better, equivalent tiers for different damage types.

Tier 1: Bullets

Tier 2: Lasers + but also primitive rail gun+ also flamethrower

Tier 3: Plasma + but also cooler rail gun+ also more efficient flame thrower+ modified laser

Tier 4: Telsa Death Rays+ uberrailgun+ chemical thrower+ aleniumfurnacethrower+ star wars laser+ modified plasma

gosh! think of the R&D tree now

or you could just tweak the vulnerabilities of the aliens as suggested. It's not going to help much if you're only going to use say plasma v a flame vulnerable Sebillian. But at least, if you are using a flame thrower, it will help you out at least a little.

[Gauddlike]

I reckon changing the damage to be similar across the board then balancing the enemy ranks with resists would be easier than adding whole new weapon types to tiers.

Tier 1 = kinetic

Tier 2 = laser

Tier 3 = plasma

Tier 4 = other

That is the only real difference between the tiers, a t1 assault rifle may have 25 damage per shot, a t2 may be 20 damage but less AP cost etc but only minor tweaks to give the weapons a bit more individual flavour.

You can then add research for new ammo types.

You research alien alloy bullets with a tiny bit of alenium powder in with the charge to improve your kinetic damage (usable in current weapons).

Overcharged alenium cells for improved laser damage and so on.

As you face higher rank enemies they will have generally better resistance across the board.

They may however have a particular strength or weakness to worry about.

Giving your whole squad plasma weapons then running into a Scuttler with its bonus to plasma resistance could be a problem.

However if you were to assault a Sebillian base, where they all have a weakness to plasma burns, then they would be your best option.

The weapon tier research would depend on capturing an enemy (or a corpse?) of a specific race so you could study their weaknesses.

Once you have tried out a plasma cutter, a laser scalpel and a standard pistol on a Sebillian you would be able to work on a weapon that took advantage of its weaknesses.

The improved version of the ammunition to increase its damage could be technology related as tiers are now (you need alien alloys before you can create alloy bullets) as well as possibly linked to researching higher ranked enemies.

Research complete on Sebillian Soldier.

'Our scientists have discovered from studying the Sebillian Soldier that they have been issued improved armour to help protect them against our new plasma technology!

They have begun work on circumventing this new protection.'

New research available:

'The lads in the lab think that tighter focus of the plasma containment field could give improved results against the new Sebillian armour, this work is preliminary but shows promising results.'

As well as making the weapon choice more complicated this system could actually add variety to your replays.

For example one game you may run into Sebillians (plasma weak) before Ceasans (laser weak).

You would be able to research plasma before laser in that case because they are not intrinsically better, they are just better against the enemy you are fighting at that time.