surprises in the research tree

[raziel1981]

I've recently played out UFO:ET to the point that i dream of chasers at night....Anyway it occured to me what's the biggest flaw in that game (besides the god awful graphics of the CAFs and aliens in tactical) - the tech tree. On one hand its wonderfully extensive, on the other hand its terribly repetetive. Now I can see you find new tech, research it and get the next gen of weapons, but what about if studying certain alien corpses, or certain parts in the ufo (or generally anything that you're not really sure what use it has) opens an unexpected side branch/topic of research. From nerve gas to bio-warfare (style x-com:apocalypse or the chem. research in UFO ET) or some kind of advanced optics/motion sensor. This could add a lot of tension and excitment to the actual process of research instead of "Oh new tech gen...here we go again..." which would lead to a research race to the higher levels of technology of the end game.

Anyway, great to have the forums back

[Chris]

Yeah. Our research tree is relatively formulaic but it does have a few gamechangers in there too. We'll have to wait until beta before properly trialing it though unfortunately.

[dekamme]

Do you mean adding a randomization raziel?

What I mean with this: Every playthrough you research say, body X, it has a 30% chance of giving insight to a gland that allows you to produce AP boosting stims, 40% chance of giving 10% damage boost, and 30% chance of unlocking a unique research side-branch into a "tranquillizer rifle" containing poison present in the alien's body.

If you're only allowed to research every part twice, say "standard inquiry" and "thorough research", this would leave a lot of excitement in every play-through.

I'd like to see research visually represented in a branching overview as well - not where you're able to see what your research will lead to, but to look back on what you researched, and perhaps see if the next step is an unlocker for new tech (like alien power source) or an end of a tree (final step of laser technology).

[raziel1981]

dekamme - i have to say that i'm doubtful if reinventing the tech tree to the extent you suggested is feasible at this point of time in development. I do like the idea in general but it should've been presented at a much earlier stage in my opinion. Probably the same can be said about my suggestion in this thread but I still it was worth a shot.

Edited July 23, 2012 by raziel1981

[dekamme]

It all depends on how the tech tree branching is set up.

At the moment I've researched the basic stuff until I was able to produce laser weapons. After this I'm not offered any new choices into research. Not sure why this is, 2 months have passed without research.

Gameplay has slowed to intercepting hoards of fighters, downing an occasional UFO, killing everything, and getting no new weapons or research. I've tweaked the XML files so I could intercept better and my soldiers survive better (not increasing anystats to godlike), so I could review gameplay further along the line. Not much happening now.

[Gorlom]

dekamme that's because not all content is available in the alpha. You will ahve to wait untill beta to get more research/aliens/overall content.

[Lorentz Factor]

One thing that could be considered would be random bonuses found during research.

No need to reinvent anything, to add something like I envision him saying.

How about this. Let's say you research Plasma pistols. There's the off chance you could find something that adds to it's description, a 3% bonus to accuracy when using them or a 5% bonus to speed when you pick one up, a training modifier here or there, or whatever. Not that you're guaranteed anything or any specific, just some random toss in chance that may help you if you pick one up or make one and use it. Nothing balance breaking, but that off chance you might get some bonus during research could be interesting.

[Gorlom]

One thing that could be considered would be random bonuses found during research.

No need to reinvent anything, to add something like I envision him saying.

How about this. Let's say you research Plasma pistols. There's the off chance you could find something that adds to it's description, a 3% bonus to accuracy when using them or a 5% bonus to speed when you pick one up, a training modifier here or there, or whatever. Not that you're guaranteed anything or any specific, just some random toss in chance that may help you if you pick one up or make one and use it. Nothing balance breaking, but that off chance you might get some bonus during research could be interesting.

I'm not really sure what toy are trying to say here?? "...pick one up", are you talking about alien plasma weapons? You can't use them without researching them anyway so adding a bonus to them would be pointless. It would simply be it's base stats and a sticker slapped on saying "now with 5% bonus to xxx".

Also your suggestion feels like you want bonuses for the sake of bonuses. Not because it is something you strongly feel would make sense to or would make the game-play more fun.

Personally I'm very much against that kind of thing since it doesn't bring anything to the game and just cheapens everything else.

PS. Speed and training modifiers? How would you represent that in-game? For some reason I get the feeling that you are talking about an FPS or something other then Xenonauts?

Edited July 24, 2012 by Gorlom

[jimbobfury]

The main thing I'd like to see with the tech tree is more tough choices for the player. At the moment, the game may as well begin with the Mig already researched as there's no reason not to set the research going the second you launch the game. If there were a couple of research topics to choose from, then that would allow the player to prioritise as they see fit. As the game is roughly split into three parts; these being management, interceptions and ground combat, how about one initial research topic which ties into each of these, so the player can choose which area of the game they want to get the best start on?

[Arislan]

I'd like to see the tech tree full of information about the aliens environment, eating habits, culture, and other useless information.

[dekamme]

As this is a single player game, and the tech tree is essential to staying alive versus continuously evolving aliens, I think it is one of the most important tools to keep the game fresh and unique every play through. I see these points coming up:

Uniqueness: Every playthrough should offer some unique branches in the tech tree. This avoids people just rushing down the same path each time. Unique branches should offer something tangible, not gimmicky.

Examples: A special gas grenade, a laser variant to the RPG (firing one massive beam that eats up 2 magazines), armour with high plasma resistance but low fire/explosion resistance, +5% damage against a type of alien.

Choice: I like jimbobfury's suggestion. If there are more choices into the tree then there is time to research all of them, people will need to choose. And need to re-play to see how other choices affects their game. Not focussing on base defence forces you to keep fighter planes close. Skipping lasers in favour of plasma research makes for some very hard ground battles.

Story: Arislan may joke about it, but the research tree is, at this time, a good story telling medium. In other games, regular cutscenes and blobs of text interrupt gameplay. With the techtree we link a useful/needed game tool to a backstory tool. I'm thinking about the Civilization games, where research is tied into world history.

I like how usually the top part summarizes benefits in a bullet list, with a more fleshed out text explaining the back story below. People not interested in the story are free to skip it.

Are we missing any other relevant points for the research tree? I'm assuming the devs already have quite some of this in mind, and would just like to offer insight in our expectancy of it.

Gorlom: A possible use for a training modifier: research into an alien species that works as a hive-mind enables a one-time 5 day training for solders. This training improves their group cohesion, giving them a +5 increase to initiative.

[thothkins]

I agree with Jimbobfury that the balanced game means that you have to make choices. You should always be under pressure to make R&D decisions. Probably more so in this game, as the manufacturing "exploit" is no more. The original game made it tough early on between laser weapons, improved aircraft and medikits for example. Currently Xnauts allows you to research the early stuff fairly easily to the point that you have exhausted topics and are waiting on the next one.

For me, there should always be some paths available, and some cost to your organisation for the routes you delay on.

Picking up Arislan's point. I'm all for backstory, if it it serves a purpose. I feel that no research should be a dead end, and should help build towards something else. It's an easy way to ensure that players pick it game after game and not just for novelty value. So, each alien autopsy would have a bonus to accuracy against them or lead into regeneration (Sebilians) psionic defence (Caesians) breaching equipment (androns) hoverdisks (scuttlebots) and so on and so forth.

The UFO components were a big plus in the original game for me. Alien food/surgery showed you what happened to cattle mutilations and abductions and I'd very much like to see more of that in this game. As of this current build., I get a feeling it's not going to be quite as well done this time round. But time will tell. But again, no information should be useless.

[Gorlom]

I'd like to see the tech tree full of information about the aliens environment, eating habits, culture, and other useless information.

Yeah, I kinda like the fluff stuff myself. But Chris has said that he wants every topic to be useful. (Ofc nothing prevents a useful topic to contain some useless fluff too)

Research should be easily moddable so hopefully the community will provide fluff topics

Gorlom: A possible use for a training modifier: research into an alien species that works as a hive-mind enables a one-time 5 day training for solders. This training improves their group cohesion, giving them a +5 increase to initiative.

I'm sill very unclear about this concept. What exactly would the training modifier do? Is it some kind of buff or simply something that opens up an option to train a stat? (what is initiative?)

PS. I think Chris played around with training options earlier and has decided against any training beyond the fresh recruit -> corporal(? forgot which rank it grants) thingy. Not sure if it was too much hassle or what it was.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Gorlom

[thothkins]

Fluff topics at the ready!

[Gorlom]

Fluff topics at the ready!

Oh dear, we have inspired Thothkins to do something. This can't end well...

[thothkins]

To think I just posted on another thread about how nice it was to have a supportive community. Now I'm going to have to go and edit it to say "... Even one with Gorlom in it."

As punishment, you must read the Geopolitical Mod Suggestion thread three times!

Actually, from what I remember the devs have done a decent job of making sure that there are few, if any, dead ends in the research. I'll need to dig out the chart I did ages ago for it. The rest depends very much on how much of the game we can tinker with at the end.

[MacGyverDTH]

What i am missing when a research is finished is a button "go to research site" so you can start the next research directly after one is finished.

[thothkins]

Yeah, I miss that too. When a base facility is built you can go to the base. We just need something similar for the reaserch to take you to the research tab.

[Vivisector 9999]

What i am missing when a research is finished is a button "go to research site" so you can start the next research directly after one is finished.

Seconded! Hell, you shouldn't even have a button, the game should just sent you directly to the Research screen after displaying the report. Is there ever any reason NOT to immediately assign your scientists a new project afterwards?

[raziel1981]

thirded about the go to base button after research

[Max_Caine]

Vivsector 9999: If you were arranging interceptions for several different UFOs, or doing some other fiddly task (like tweaking loadouts) would you appreciate it if the game yanked you over to the research screen without your say-so?

[Gorlom]

I think he assumed the research screen wouldn't pop up during aircombat. that geoscape would be paused or something.

[thothkins]

Just a pop up such as:-

Alien Probing research complete

Go to research

Cancel

would do. By clicking on Go to research, you get the completed topic and it's screen gives you a link to the research tab. Somehting like that?

[donald007duck]

i like the almost useless fluff in a research tree. one thing i would like is if your scientists do not have major needed research projects or if you really want to improve your tech /fighting in one area. is multipule research of alien bodies(*live aliens if you can get em)

you could say get 1% increase in damage effectivness for every body you research. that means after 100 bodies researched you basically get 2x damage towards that alien. each time you complete the research of an alien body you could have any kind of a discription giving strang,morbid,fun,*easter egg* facts. thus giving fluff with a small bonus for doing repetitive research

example of a fun

'upon completion of the exam your scientists find a mark over this aliens heart, strangly in the shape of abraham lincoln's head ,allowing you to target this alien better.' (crit hit +1%)

example of a easter egg

'upon completion of the exam your scientists find a mark over this aliens heart, strangly in the shape of thothkin's head ,striking fear and causing you to target this alien worse.' (crit hit -20%)

example of a easter egg

'upon completion of the exam your scientists find a mark over this aliens back, strangly in the shape of donald007duck. its movement causes your men to lol so hard that every time they stand next to this alien they drop their weapons.

(this not only uses scientsts continously but maks you want to have as many courpses as possible and makes you decide do you want know the aliens better(hit em harder) or develop better weapons(to hit em harder) or a mixture to hit one kind of alien harder.

Edited August 10, 2012 by donald007duck

[Vivisector 9999]

Vivsector 9999: If you were arranging interceptions for several different UFOs, or doing some other fiddly task (like tweaking loadouts) would you appreciate it if the game yanked you over to the research screen without your say-so?

Actually, believe it or not, I would.

I can be absent-minded at times, and if I'm in the middle of something when the notice pops up, that makes it all the more likely that I'll fail to remember to assign a new project in a timely manner if I don't do it immediately. Also, doesn't the geoscape pause when you're doing stuff in your base? So it's not like your fighters would get blasted out of the sky while you're pondering which project to do next.

I wouldn't worry, anyway. Even if the developers saw my post up there, I doubt they'd make that particular change. It's a very minor thing, and while I might prefer it that way, your post shows that it might annoy others.