More Cold War era Weapon & firearms (Team Load-Out/Customisation)

[Radman]

Loving the game, fantastic!

Thought i'd sign up however to suggest that I love the whole cold war concept but feel the weapons/firearms of the era are under-used.

I understand that just like X-Com you progess onto Alien Weaponry/Laser Weaponry quickly but I really think ballistic weapons should be alot more useful/practical then they were in X-Com.

My problem with X-Com is that if you know what your doing you get rid of the battle rifle very early on and replace it for the much used and loved laser rifle.

Well in my opinion thats all well and good but I think a player should have alot more options open to them in the form of standard human weaponry - perhaps have numerous different machine-guns, rifles and pistols to choose from within their inventory, this is after-all supposed to be a world-wide effort to combat the alien threat.

What im talking about/suggesting is where are the British SLR's? The Soviet AK-47's? the French FAMAS? The Austrian Army's Steyr Aug rifle?

Why is it I get stuck with the very boring M-16 US rifle?

In my opinion it'd be nice to have a variation of weapons available to the Xenonauts Operatives.

Wouldnt it be cool to gun down the Aliens with British SLR's?

Steyr Aug

Each weapon could have some custom stats each with a drawback (weight, ammo capacity, reliability ect)

It'd also be cool to add sub-machine guns to the gear of your soldiers, I know we have shotguns implemented for room clearing but how nice would it be to see the MP5 make an entrance or the Israeli Uzi?

Let us know what you think anyhow,

Radman

Edited July 6, 2012 by Radman

[Quartermaster]

The main reason for not having more weapons is that the existing ones are meant to fill certain "roles." The concern is that adding a bunch of weapons to the game that have very little attribute differences to distinguish between them does not add much to the game. With that said the game is being designed to be very flexible so we will be able to add weapons to the game by modding (like the ones you have mentioned). The game files actually already include some soviet and alternative NATO weaponry that can be added in via modding.

[Radman]

The main reason for not having more weapons is that the existing ones are meant to fill certain "roles."

Right...

But that wouldn't change, you'd still have different weapon types just more variation within those types - ever played Rainbow Six? You still had weapon types in there (shotguns for room clearance/breaching, general rifles, SMGs ect) but you had alot of customisation on you went about equipping your team, this should be the same.

The concern is that adding a bunch of weapons to the game that have very little attribute differences to distinguish between them does not add much to the game.

Well you'd ensure there were differences between them then? You'd have to ensure they were well balanced and tuned but incorporate small differences to ensure there was some sort of balance.

With that said the game is being designed to be very flexible so we will be able to add weapons to the game by modding (like the ones you have mentioned). The game files actually already include some soviet and alternative NATO weaponry that can be added in via modding.

Modding is always an option but I think there's a missed opportunity here from the devs- why would an organisation comprised of many different military specialists only have access to a limited supply of weaponry? It wouldnt - it'd have access to all of the worlds major rifle/weapon types.

[Gorlom]

Right...

But that wouldn't change, you'd still have different weapon types just more variation within those types - ever played Rainbow Six? You still had weapon types in there (shotguns for room clearance/breaching, general rifles, SMGs ect) but you had alot of customisation on you went about equipping your team, this should be the same.

Completley diffrent game genre and game mechanics. They have more ways to differentiate weapons from each other without causing one weapon to be "the best" out of the lot. I personally do not consider that a valid comparison.

Well you'd ensure there were differences between them then? You'd have to ensure they were well balanced and tuned but incorporate small differences to ensure there was some sort of balance.

Modding is always an option but I think there's a missed opportunity here from the devs- why would an organisation comprised of many different military specialists only have access to a limited supply of weaponry? It wouldnt - it'd have access to all of the worlds major rifle/weapon types.

It's not a missed opportunity. It's an unnecessary/pointless timesink for something that is going to be replaced fairly quick. More weapons aren't really going to change anything gameplay wise. they are just something that is "nice to have" for a group of people that are particularly interested in weapons. All the time spent on making sure that each weapon is unique, with it's own strengths and weaknesses or what "small differences" you now imagined, could be better spent on implementing other features that does change gameplay.

The additional ballistic tier weapons can be modded in without the dev team having to spend time on a superfluous feature.

Edited July 6, 2012 by Gorlom

[MrPyro]

If you want a more in-universe explanation; while the individual soldiers are from all around the world, the quartermaster core do not wish to have to deal with having to get in supplies of different weapons, ammunition etc from all around the world, so they have made the decision to standardise all equipment to ease logistical issues.

[Max_Caine]

radman, I'm going to quote the developer on this matter, as this kind of thread does pop up from time to time. This particular quote was in response to a chap called cyllan, who made a few people upset. the thread itself was on different kinds of shotgun ammo.

Cyllan, adding lots of weapons does not make a good game. Putting in the right number of weapons makes a good game. There's a reason why you don't see cars driving around with 19 wheels on them. There's no point.

If you want to mod in a million different weapons that do almost exactly the same thing and are useless beyond the first 20% of the game, be my guest. It's not difficult. But I'm not going to do it. I'm going to do as you suggest - spend my time developing the game.

[Radman]

radman, I'm going to quote the developer on this matter, as this kind of thread does pop up from time to time. This particular quote was in response to a chap called cyllan, who made a few people upset. the thread itself was on different kinds of shotgun ammo.

Fair enough and thank you for being so polite about it.

I did do a forum search but couldnt come up with a similar thread.

[jars_u]

The main reason for not having more weapons is that the existing ones are meant to fill certain "roles."

I'm fine with the generalized roles and even the existing weapon selections for those roles but for me I think the two weapon voids are a grenade launcher M79 which like the existing weapons is still a LOS weapon and a submachinegun (Uzi) both which would fit nicely based on the in-game era.

I understand that the game will problaby have lots of new sci-fi weapons to discover and use but I would like to see more longevity out of strictly human weapons.

[Gauddlike]

The SMG role is filled by carbines after the first tier, they replace the shotgun.

Chris has also said before that he didn't see a role for the grenade launcher that wouldn't impact on the role of the rocket launcher.

The arguments for adding another weapon type would need to be pretty convincing to persuade him that it is worth making a whole new set of armour sprites.

[Max_Caine]

A big wedge of money would probably be very persausive.

[jars_u]

The SMG role is filled by carbines... he didn't see a role for the grenade launcher that wouldn't impact on the role of the rocket launcher...

For me Suggestions & Features is often just a wish list... for developers if swayed or for mods afterwards. While I personally would like more human weapons and could argue SMG vs carbine etc. differences - in the end I don't think it is a critical game play issue.

I'm just looking forward to playing the game which for me is the first after so many years that actually feels like the X-Com I remember while at the same time being its own creation.

[Chris]

People should probably remember that there are a whole bunch of alternative weapon images available in the assets folders (including AK-47s etc) specifically so people can mod them in if they want to. But they won't be in vanilla Xenonauts.

[Gauddlike]

For me Suggestions & Features is often just a wish list... for developers if swayed or for mods afterwards. While I personally would like more human weapons and could argue SMG vs carbine etc. differences - in the end I don't think it is a critical game play issue.

I'm just looking forward to playing the game which for me is the first after so many years that actually feels like the X-Com I remember while at the same time being its own creation.

Just pointing out that the games weapons are based on roles rather than specific weapons or weapon types.

If you could come up with a weapon that you really wanted to see, and that fit into a role that was missing or under represented, then it is more likely to make it into the game.

17 different assault rifles with slightly different stats don't really fit into the role system well enough to be worth the work, unless by an interested mod team.

The differences would be practically invisible in this type of game, unlike the original Rogue Spear games.

On the same note, if a single rifle image is to be used, then the M-16 is one of the more recognisable images, along with the AK-47.

[dekamme]

I'm also not for having the devs spending a lot of time implementing and balancing different weapon types.

Perhaps a good alternative would be to keep the different roles (sidearm, rifle, sniper, suppression gun, rocket launcher) and stats but use different names and graphics based on the bases' location. US base keeps the m16, Europe gets the FN FAL, Soviets get the AK...

It just doesn't make sense for me if I start up a Xenonaut base in Soviet Russia, to see them rolling out m16s from the start. Once they downed a few UFO's and gotten credit with the US, they may start to receive some small arms shipments, but starting out with m16s is just plain odd.

This may be a good tradeoff - no balancing issues, but it increases realism and immersion. Many of that era's weapons are copies of each other anyway, same graphics, small difference in description. What do you think?

Base idea (not complete):

Soviets: AK47 assault rifle, SVD (Dragunov) sniper, RPG-7, PKM machine gun

China: Type 56 assault (using AK47 image, it's the same), Type 79 (SVD image)

US: m16 assault , m24 sniper, m870 shotgun, m72 law, m60 machine gun

Europe: FN FAL assault, FN MAG machine gun (= US m420),

South Africa: Rifle R1 assault (using FAL image, it's the same), RPG-7, FN MAG, R1 Scoped (FN FAL with scope )

The downside I see is that some base locations used very standardized weaponry (USSR, US, China), some others didn't (different European, Middle-East and African countries). Most time might go in reaching a consensus, but if this is something the devs would look in to, we could continue the discussion here. I'd gladly help research.

[Buzzles]

Perhaps a good alternative would be to keep the different roles (sidearm, rifle, sniper, suppression gun, rocket launcher) and stats but use different names and graphics based on the bases' location. US base keeps the m16, Europe gets the FN FAL, Soviets get the AK...

It just doesn't make sense for me if I start up a Xenonaut base in Soviet Russia, to see them rolling out m16s from the start. Once they downed a few UFO's and gotten credit with the US, they may start to receive some small arms shipments, but starting out with m16s is just plain odd.

Neither of those make logical sense as the Xenonauts are a global organisation independent of any government and with their own supply and logistics.

Any new base is part of the owning organisation, linked to its own supply and logistics train. It's going to use the standard equipment of the organisation not only because it's the standard equipment and therefore what the soldiers have trained to use and will be familiar with, but because there's an existing supply chain and stocks of it AND supplying that equipment is by default a part of setting up a new base location. It might over time include some local equipment or variations (especially if in harsh climates), but it's certainly not going to be using AK's when the rest of the organisation is using M16's just because it's in Eastern Europe/Asia.

For a real world example: The British Army don't use G36's for the regiments on the German bases, they use the standard L85. Nor do they use a Greek/Cypriot gun for the base on Cyprus.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Buzzles

[dekamme]

Hmm, valid point.

Another idea to get rid of this issue: choose well performing rifles of the era, and give them a variant designation number, with the description saying "this weapon, based on X, was modified by the Xenonauts to have a small advantage against often better armoured alien forces. Although better performing then their vanilla counterparts, it still takes a lot to take one down."

Sililar to what they did with the F17. If they have the knowhow and logistics to roll out modified airplanes from the start, modifying ballistics should be a piece of cake.