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17 hours ago, Alienkiller said:

The big Radar is an Combi-Radar. If you play it later then you will know why. There an 1x1 Square-Radar is not Qualified for.

And if you Guys would read, there are Buildings which are Upgradeable later, esp. that Combi-Radar.

Prior to version 18, there were no upgrades to the old radars. You can only explore new ones. When building a new radar, the player did not need the old one. Therefore, to build the final 2x2 radar, it was necessary to destroy the 2x2 middle-ranking radar. Since version 18 I haven't had time to go far to see the changes.

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7 minutes ago, MrAlex said:

Prior to version 18, there were no upgrades to the old radars. You can only explore new ones. When building a new radar, the player did not need the old one. Therefore, to build the final 2x2 radar, it was necessary to destroy the 2x2 middle-ranking radar. Since version 18 I haven't had time to go far to see the changes.

Indeed upgradeable buildings would resolve the advanced radar placement issue correct?

I didnt even think on building upgrades before but they would also be a great way to spice up this portion of the game a bit. It will not make placement more interesting but selecting which building to upgrade and when and having a visually and output-wise slowly changing base  that gets better over time is a good idea to keep it fresh

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Here is an overview from my last Phoenix Point man base at endgame:

1432224102_PPMainBase.thumb.jpg.f55cbd2f86d462ef704c9f384bb67142.jpg

There are many many aspects we can talk about here but for now there are two important points from me:

1. The colors used are the same everywhere (orange and grey) which (for me at least) makes everything look alike - the icons and building names are absolutely needed as the images do not help at all but they bring up another issues: we have the same information conveyed 3 times. Good design only needs one way to communicate :)

2. Note that they have reduced the number of tiles available AND they have introduced blocked tiles. This means that it was clearly intended to limit the player via available space but it also clearly didnt work as we dont really have enough things to build and the player can easily find around 15 bases on top of that

Now I dont know if Xenonauts 2 also wants to limit space - I would recommend they do otherwise money is the only limiting factor (reactors are also just money limit if no space issue) and if that is a goal we need many buildings and at least a couple of large ones to make us think about placement

In the above you just smack in stuff you need (you dont need much) anywhere it doesnt matter: everything is a single tile only and there is plenty of space even though they clearly attempted the opposite

Also note how a single generator is more then enough to power anything the player can reasonably throw at it: 30 power is supplied for 14 (20-blocked tiles-3 extra space needed for hangar) where buildings consume 1-3 power each

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5 minutes ago, zolobolo said:

Indeed upgradeable buildings would resolve the advanced radar placement issue correct?

I didnt even think on building upgrades before but they would also be a great way to spice up this portion of the game a bit. It will not make placement more interesting but selecting which building to upgrade and when and having a visually and output-wise slowly changing base  that gets better over time is a good idea to keep it fresh

Yes, but in any case, the starting radar becomes unnecessary when exploring a new one. I always feel sad when something that has been spent a lot of time and money is simply thrown away. I think old buildings should not be demolished without compensation. They must be sold, returning a significant part of the money spent on them.

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38 minutes ago, MrAlex said:

Yes, but in any case, the starting radar becomes unnecessary when exploring a new one. I always feel sad when something that has been spent a lot of time and money is simply thrown away. I think old buildings should not be demolished without compensation. They must be sold, returning a significant part of the money spent on them.

But if we can upgrade the starting radar then there is no issue correct?

Unless we have to pay full price for the upgrade: if upgrade costs less then building a new advanced radar, then the original radar is not wasted but leads to a discount

The question is if all radars are contained in a continuous upgrade line - so that none of them cause wasted money/space

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Question on visual: Would it be possible to create 2-3 variants of most building where only a couple of decoration objects are placed differently and sequentially place them to break up visual redundancy?

Concrete: Two banks of Beds are rotated or are shifted next or further apart from each other. A version deployed the first time, B version for the second, C for the third and then A again for the fourth when built....

Hangar and Living quarters specifically would be perfect candidates as they have many objects within them and are frequnetly built on most bases

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Posted (edited)

Zolobolo: No, you have a wrong thinking in that.

1. You need the advanced Radar build up, because the big Technics there for the Double-Detection can only done in a 2x2-Building.

2. That 2x2 Building is is then Upgradeable with new Technics or can get a complete Refit to the newest Standard.

3. The 08/15-Standard-Radar you have at the beginning get his upgrade already in the beginning of the Game. That is announced in the first Xenopedia-Entry and already done for all Human Radars.

4. The Microtechnics which the Aliens have are not useable for Humanity. If it were doable, we all have Mini-Bases and could get 1/3 to the 2/4 of the Base-Building Map away.

Nope the Budget don´t let it makeable and we don´t have time for that. As well as for such unimportent things the Budget need to have 4th or 5th more form the Budget we have collected. Last but not Least other Important things for the Main-Game were missing. I know that because I have backed and we bring in all important things now before the Game get to Early Access. We don´t know when, but if we can make a longer Closed- / Open-Beta-Status then we can bring in the IMPORTANT THINGS which are still missing.

That are for example:

- better Groundfightmaps (already in and get more polish as well as bugfixing)

- better Airfightmaps (some Parts are in already, others will comming)

- more cool Equipments for the fighting Personal (Fighters, Soldiers and MARS / ARES-Vehicle; some parts are in already, but not all is activated or fully activated atm)

- Link-Bonuses for the Buildings (like you see on the Picture)

- more Specials on the Geoscape (f. e. Special Missions, upgradeable Outposts)

- missing R & D-Things (like Entrys, Pictures etc.)

Edited by Alienkiller

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Sorry dont understand :)

Do we need to build two radars to increase detection range/chance or are there two types of radars and both of them need to be built?

I can imagine the latter being the case if the second type of "radar" is a decoding center which shows data on detected points of interests

In both cases the solution is simple:

A. If both types of radar fulfill the same purpose, they should be upgradeable from one another

B.: If there are two types of radars then the added functionality should be measured against space constraints - this is exactly what I would be aiming at. If player wants a base with both functions, then that base will not be able to be also a hub for tactical missions + research + production powerhouse AND house 3 interceptors - something needs to be offloaded into another base (or outpost)

 

I would imagine that budget is tight as the base concept as started of differently at the beginning and also with a different view angle so I would imagine all those assets created are lost

I proposed the above as it a low effort improvement with prompt and clear returns: the effort is placing around some assets for a couple of copies of 2-3 rooms and the coding part is likely higher: depending on how building images are referenced it can be difficult or simple)

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1 hour ago, zolobolo said:

But if we can upgrade the starting radar then there is no issue correct?

It occupies a 1x1 space, and improved radars - 2x2. So I don't think improvement is possible. Although, mid grade radar (Inference Radar) we do not need (in my opinion). It's research comes too early, making the build basic radar completely unnecessary.We have an additional building - a quantum decoder. Which can additional improve the range of starting radar and give the same benefits. And the final radar would be 2x2 emphasizing its coolness.

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, zolobolo said:

Do we need to build two radars to increase detection range/chance or are there two types of radars and both of them need to be built?

I can imagine the latter being the case if the second type of "radar" is a decoding center which shows data on detected points of interests

Before version 18, the game had 4 different buildings (which appeared in this order):
- Basic radar (low grade) 1x1;

- Inference Radar (mid grade) 2x2

 - Quantum decoder 1x1 (decoding center which shows data on detected points of interests)

- Quantum Array (top drade radar) 2x2


The several radars of the same type in Xenonauts 2 do not give any benefit.
And the new radar always made the old radar unnecessary.
Building Inference Radar, the player destroyed Basic radar. Building Quantum Array, the player destroyed Inference Radar (simply because they are no longer needed). If you do it on all bases, then a huge amount of money is wasted.

Edited by MrAlex

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5 minutes ago, MrAlex said:

Before version 18, the game had 4 different buildings (which appeared in this order):
- Basic radar (low grade) 1x1;

- Inference Radar (mid grade) 2x2

 - Quantum decoder 1x1 (decoding center which shows data on detected points of interests)

- Quantum Array (top drade radar) 2x2


The several radars of the same type in Xenonauts 2 do not give any benefit.
And the new radar always made the old radar unnecessary.
Building Inference Radar, the player destroyed Basic radar. Building Quantum Array, the player destroyed Inference Radar (simply because they are no longer needed). If you do it on all bases, then a huge amount of money is wasted.

Thanks for the details - good overview

So in the latest version the Inference Radar (tier 2; 2x2) should have an option to be upgraded to Tier 3 radar with also 2x2 basis: Quantum Array

The reason why upgrade chain breaks between Basic Radar and Inference Radar is the difference in their size 1x1 -> 2x2

 

Ok so there are a number of options available:

A. Increase size of Basic Radar from 1x1 to 2x2 AND allow it to be directly upgraded to Inference Radar: thus the base radar will go all he way up till 3rd tier Radar without having to pay full price and needing additional free space just to get the latest version (if we already have a radar or tier 1 or 2)

B. Shrink down size of Inference and Quantum Radar AND allow upgrade to them - same benefits as above but no challenge space wise especially if Hangars remain 1x2

C. Same as B BUT also make radar scanning range shorter AND give adjacency bonus to radars as well. This way the player needs to build several radars to get the most out of them. Since they are 1x1 they are easy to place and they can all be upgraded as well. Adjacency bonus ensure it matters whee they are placed but in this case: it is even more strongly recommended to have 2x2 hangars as before as these would be the only 2x2 buildings to prevent jack of all trades bases

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14 hours ago, Ruggerman said:

I don't understand why we are limited to the same area as in the original game, it would have been nice to have more flexibly in the layout of the base, and or bases, so as to be able to include more of the advance buildings that become available later in the game.

That a thought!!! 

Its a design choice if you want to have other limitating factors to be considered for this mini-game or only money

I found base building to be more simple in both Xenonauts and very very simple (almost none existent) in PP even though the latter clearly tried to introduce space limitation

The drawback of relying only on money for limitation is that the entire mechanic needs to only be balanced against that one resource

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13 hours ago, andy079 said:

We need more new mechanics around base building than just adjacency bonuses. And visually speaking they need a complete overhaul. I mean c'mon, it already looked outdated when X1 released

Do you mean they would need a fresh paint or different models?

PP is a good example of more effort and higher pixel count does not translate to a more satisfactory result :)

I am happy with whatever is done (can be even drawn by hand for all I care) as long as:

1. Quality for that display method (drawing, 2D image, 3D model) is decent (it can be a drawing but I wouldn't be able to draw nicely enough for most people to accept it :))

2. Building types need to be clearly distinguishable

I found the looks of X1 acceptable as far as base went: lots of redundancy visually as mentioned above and didn't like the white plane image

So far it seems like they are going for an iterative improvement to the same method (whatever it is)

  • I like the radar dish and white plane image much better in the new version and the bit higher wall elevation seems to be working well so far
  • Hangars are very empty but I guess they will place some items laying around eventually - I dont mind if the white guiding lines are gone as they didnt lead anywhere anyhow so needed to get used to them in X1 :)
  • Those two buildings on the upper right corner dont know what these are (maybe laboratory training center?) - these need some clear color coding and props to clearly identify its purpose

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, zolobolo said:

Do you mean they would need a fresh paint or different models?

PP is a good example of more effort and higher pixel count does not translate to a more satisfactory result :)

I am happy with whatever is done (can be even drawn by hand for all I care) as long as:

1. Quality for that display method (drawing, 2D image, 3D model) is decent (it can be a drawing but I wouldn't be able to draw nicely enough for most people to accept it :))

2. Building types need to be clearly distinguishable

I found the looks of X1 acceptable as far as base went: lots of redundancy visually as mentioned above and didn't like the white plane image

So far it seems like they are going for an iterative improvement to the same method (whatever it is)

  • I like the radar dish and white plane image much better in the new version and the bit higher wall elevation seems to be working well so far
  • Hangars are very empty but I guess they will place some items laying around eventually - I dont mind if the white guiding lines are gone as they didnt lead anywhere anyhow so needed to get used to them in X1 :)
  • Those two buildings on the upper right corner dont know what these are (maybe laboratory training center?) - these need some clear color coding and props to clearly identify its purpose

For me, its not so much how each individual thing like planes look, but on that note I think the artwork itself is just amatuerish. Boring backgrounds, no effects and the fact that theyre completely static makes it look even worse. That's just a preference thing though.

I'd like bases to feel more like bases, instead of a series of modules snapped together, even if that is what they are. Maybe blend adjacent modules together a little so they it isnt just a jarring grid. When players want as much clarity as they can get (eg when planning their base) they could toggle a grid overlay or something.

A 2.5D approach could look a lot better and actually convey a sense of depth within each module. By that i mean keep the 2Doverhead grid view but 2.5D for the modules.

X1 was outdated but acceptable for the time, I'd have thought base building was a no brainer place for X2 to make significant visual updates to. 

Edited by andy079

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13 hours ago, andy079 said:

For me, its not so much how each individual thing like planes look, but on that note I think the artwork itself is just amatuerish. Boring backgrounds, no effects and the fact that theyre completely static makes it look even worse. That's just a preference thing though.

I'd like bases to feel more like bases, instead of a series of modules snapped together, even if that is what they are. Maybe blend adjacent modules together a little so they it isnt just a jarring grid. When players want as much clarity as they can get (eg when planning their base) they could toggle a grid overlay or something.

A 2.5D approach could look a lot better and actually convey a sense of depth within each module. By that i mean keep the 2Doverhead grid view but 2.5D for the modules.

X1 was outdated but acceptable for the time, I'd have thought base building was a no brainer place for X2 to make significant visual updates to. 

I agree that the visuals should be updated, but the way bases are managed could easily change so it would be a shame if the devs make a bunch of new, great art and then have to scrap it since it doesn't fit with the new systems. 

It would be nice if you could upgrade any building into their superior (generator into alienium reactor, labs/workshops into quantum labs/nanotech workshops, etc) for a reduced cost and building time so you don't just waste time and money you spent into the original buildings just to demolish them so you can get a better one.

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I see your point - better integration between the rooms themselves would be swell but this part of the game will like not get that much attention as it woul reuire re-evaluation of the objects every time a new building is made which for sure didnt exist before = code change

I am ok with the solution as is jsut wish for some details and clear color differentiation via the props for ease of reasing what kind of room is where

Upgrade from level 1 to the top should be possible and I am fairly sure that is what the are workign towards - the isuse with the base rada being of smaller size then the advanced versions will likely be rectified and eithe hte base rada made 2x2 or the advanced radars reduced to 1x1

Agree that finalising hte art does not make sense at this stage lest someoen wants to waste money :)

Just looking at what is already here art wise and especially the mechanics it seems like a very solid basis. If the planned mechancis (energy usage, space constraint, upgrades and adjecancy bonuses) are properly implemented and balacned and the art is a bit more refined I will be perfectly happy (is way more then X1 or PP had)

As for the individual point:

Energy usage: a base generator should onyl be abel to power 3-4 buildings max (so that furhter gerneators need to be build quickly and make it more difficult to place buldings in a way that maximises adjecancy bonus (in square formation)

Space Constraint: Hangars need to be 2x2 - this is the most commonly used building type that will alos likely be built in ever base, it can then have enough space to show the planes in their full glory :) and it makes sense for them to take up the most space. Once this is so Radars dont even need to take up 2x2 - hangars might be enough if there are enough of other building options which will seem to be the case

Upgrades: All buildings serving the same function should be upgrade-able from base to top tier - this also necessitates the same size across the budiling type. Cost of upgrade needs to be signifficanly lower then that of new construction (basic stuff)

Adjecancy Bonus: All buildings except hangars already seem to provide adjecancy bonus (maybe even reactors though its not clear from the screen). There should also be 1-2 dedicated buildings that provide extra amount of adjecancy bonus to break up the bracket pattern the above shold naturally lead to. e.g: AI Computer Center: Provides the same amount of research as a lab but +2 bonus when lab or workshop is next to it. These would then naturally be ideal between clusters of workshops and labs but sicne they dont give bonus to each otehr there is no dange of spamming them (this can also be mitiagted by very high energy usage). The introduction of such node buildings is needed to frelsh out the system, introduce higher adjecancy bonuses then the base value for mid and late game and to create new interestign scnearios where the historically grown lab and manufacturing complexes now would be beneficial to be joined together via such nodes :)

 

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A game (Dorfromatik) is just coming out on Steam that has only tile placement and that is the entire game loop - it seems to work as it has a unique timless art style and a simple mechanic that lend itself to variation

It was mentioend above that rooms should be connected to each other: while it is not realistic for this reelase, I could imagine a v3 iteration of the base MGMT conspet to have doors in various sides of each building type that would force the player to consider how to deisgn the base. Conrete: buildings could not simply attach to any other building but would need to consider rotation and join-points. Such a system does of course necessitate a hexagonal tile layout (it also works with rectengualr tiles but the amount of varions there are much more limited)

Again, this is pure fantasy on my side - the current concept definitively does not look like somethign that could utilize join-ponts nor should it need one

the planned features are already godo enough if they make it into the final

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Posted (edited)

We will see what is doable in the Beta-Time we have left until it goes in the Final Phase (Early Access). In the Beta-Phase we can give Suggestions, but the End-Decission have the Devs. They know how much Money for what is left and what is priority, secondary and tertiary in Buildup. We will see if some of the Tertiary-Things (like some Graphic Updates or such) will come at the End or not. But big Refits, Reworks and such won´t come for the Basis-Pictures / Backgrounds again. The Big Things there (esp. Backgrounds are completely finished).

The Base-Screen-Graphics are very good, esp. the Backgrounds. If someone don´t like it can play the new XCOM-Series or Phoenix Point for the Moment. Nothing better as Counterparts to Xenonauts 2 of that Gerne is atm there.

Good back to the IMPORTANT PART:

Hangars need defenetly 2x2 Squares. The Advantages with that new System are give more Space in Base.

Better Radars need defenetly 2x2 Squares. There are no Alternatives about that. The 2x2 Radars can get an Upgrade to the 3rd Radar. The old Radar can be Refitet to the Quantum Decoder then.

The Combination-Bonus between Generators, Training-Facilitys, Labs, Workshops, Defense-Systems and Living-Quaters are great. And like in the XCOM EU / EW-System only sperately for the Buildings among each other. And some Buildings won´t have a Combination-Bonus, that´s clear and a fix Part like in XCOM EU / EW.

An second Secret comes too, where you can switch Engeneers and Scientists to other Buildings (like Training-Centers, Hospital, Hangars, Radars and Generators) and evtl. to Outposts for R & D´s there. That´s a Feature from XCOM 2 incl. WotC, where the Second Point is Mission-Specific.

That the Buildungs have to be upgradeable (like the Defensive-System and Hospital atm.) are a must have like in XCOM 2 incl. WotC.

Outposts too, because the Outposts will play a Major-Role later (if an Refit will come as planed), which I had announced to the Devs. And that Idea comes from UFO:AI .

And yes I played or play all the Games (XCOM EU / EW, XCOM 2 incl. WotC incl. all smaller DLC´s; UFO: AI and UFO ET as well as all old X-COM-Series-Parts). So that working Ideas there which bring in the Devs with Improvements already are MAJOR-Things. :)

You see, there is much Potential in the Game and unnessecary things on Top are out of the Place. They are only Time- and Money Consuming. That 2 Ressources we don´t have, so concentrate on the MAJOR-Things we have to do. That are finding Bugs, not working Features and similar as well as Announcements for important Improvements (like Base-Upgrades).

Not such unnessecarry / unimportant things that are impossible (like improving an 08/15-Radar) or shorting the Radar-Effectivy. That you can do with the first Radar if you want, but not with the Second and third ones. 

 

 

Edited by Alienkiller

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Posted (edited)

So the nuXCOM style underground base is out?

 

if it were up to me, I wouldn't limit the player on how many "rooms" he can have in a base

the only limit would be the energy needed to upkeep those rooms and the cost to dig deeper and deeper to accommodate new rooms.

storages, labs, hangars, engineering rooms etc , each would have a different energy upkeep

 

so if a player wants to make a huge base just with storage rooms (which would have lowest energy upkeep), he should have this option and flexibility

 

 

Edited by Grotesque

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Posted (edited)

Yes, its outsourced about many Reasons. Don´t think over it to bring it back for the same Reasons.

The cool and nice Basesystem from Firaxis in XCOM EU / EW with the Anthill-System (a similar one was tested and planed for Xenonauts 2) if you look at Kickstarter. But Firaxis shows in XCOM EU / EW [Ant-Base] and XCOM 2 / XCOM 2 WotC [Avanger] that it have still Problems. Esp. to implement Base-Defences / Base-Attacks. That´s why XCOM EU / EW has only 1 Defense Mission and 1 Attack Mission (2 Attack Missions with the EXALT-Enemys in XCOM EW).

In the full Playthrough of XCOM 2 / XCOM 2 WotC the Devs solved some of the Problems, but have to limit Base-Defense Missions on the Avenger. If you play very long, like I did, then you have in a full playthroug max. 5 Attacks / 6 Attacks.

 

For Xenenonauts, which get testable 3 Years later (about 2019) after XCOM 2 we testet such a Base too. But Goldhawk-Devs found still to many Problems in that Base-System. We Beta-Testers and the Devs tried to solve what isn´t solveable atm for a very long time. In that case the Devs decided to ask the Community what to do. And over 90 % decided to bring the older but workable Base-System back.

Now we have an repainted old Base Build-Up system with many cool Implentations, which can and will be still upgraded and refited in some Parts. Now the Base-Defence and Base-Attacks Systems get Working without Problems.

An similar System like in Xenonauts is in the 2007 published UFOET [2010 UFO ET get Gold-Status but not updated for 64 Bit-Systems atm] as well as the upcomming 2021 UFO2ET, which both are Game-Row with a linked Storyline. What the Base-Management-System from UFO 2 ET have we don´t know, but there you have Carrier-Bases too, which sounds very interessting.

But an nicer and cooler look gives the new XCOM-Row that´s true, And I hope that Firaxis can fix the Problems from the first 2 Games in that Game-Row what the Base-Effects with Attacks, Defense etc. belongs.

Edited by Alienkiller

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In the original x-com, I remember there being base defense buildings - turrets. They would automatically shoot at aliens, and take a lot of firepower to destroy - unless hit by the seeking green acid thing.

Considering we have aircraft that can shoot missiles and guns, you'd think we could design a weapon that can be operated from a distance - to automatically shoot at aliens - like in the original x-com.

Would it be possible to have a building that provided anti personnel turrets to protect against base invasions?

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Most of it is still in WIP, so all can be possible. That´s why we are still in Beta-Phase and not in Early Access. Means: Everthing in Changes / Refits / Upgrades etc. is possible. If we go in Early Access such things aren´t possible anymore and the Fine Work (like with a Glock Manufacture) get done for the Final Release.

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On 3/24/2021 at 12:14 PM, zolobolo said:

Question on visual: Would it be possible to create 2-3 variants of most building where only a couple of decoration objects are placed differently and sequentially place them to break up visual redundancy?

 

3425846-phantom%20doctrine%20(9).jpg

^Phantom Doctrine

Xenonauts 2 should go full 3D in every visual aspect of the game :)

The 3D assets could be in less detail (lower texture resolution and low polycount) but it would still be better with the aid of clever lighting than the flat 2D drawings of base rooms.

And once you have it in 3D, object placement variation would be more easily attained.

 

 

 

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The major problem with have multiple generators, is that you have a finite number of rooms in the base complex, and you would run out of them very soon, unless you could dig or add more rooms as required.

 

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On 5/5/2021 at 2:15 AM, Grotesque said:

Xenonauts 2 should go full 3D in every visual aspect of the game :)

The 3D assets could be in less detail (lower texture resolution and low polycount) but it would still be better with the aid of clever lighting than the flat 2D drawings of base rooms.

And once you have it in 3D, object placement variation would be more easily attained.

Yes it is more easy to alter 3D models once they are done if you want to  have them look consistent but an experienced artist can manipulate 2d images evne faster and cheaper

I am warry of 3D base elements as Phoenix Point has don that and they have proven jsut how boring and monotone that can get without proper care taken to bring it alive

In case of 2D images its more self-explanatory to make things clear and colors pop (though sadly not trivila for some)

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