[v18 Air Combat] rebalance

[MrAlex]

Why did you make Scout passive? He must be aggressive, as this is the first ship to arrive to attack the player. And taking into account the description of the Fighter Angel, UFOs have not yet met with significant resistance from humanity. Therefore, they must attack with confidence.

[Kamehamehayes]

12 minutes ago, MrAlex said:

Why did you make Scout passive? He must be aggressive, as this is the first ship to arrive to attack the player. And taking into account the description of the Fighter Angel, UFOs have not yet met with significant resistance from humanity. Therefore, they must attack with confidence.

I mean their purpose in the invasion is to scout, as it is in their name, so they aren't supposed to be super aggressive. The scouts want to feel out humanity's current situation before sending in the much stronger capitol ships and fighters. The destroyer is supposed to be the aggressive early game ship since it has more powerful cannons and is much tankier, it is clearly there to crush low-developed civilizations. 

[MrAlex]

Units can only be passive when they are neutral. This is an invasion, so they must either attack or try to escape. My opinion is that the scouts should attack, as the aliens have not yet met a decent resistance among the fighters of mankind.

The current scout does not resist at all during the interception. Here is a balanced version of Scout.

scout.json

[Kamehamehayes]

Just now, MrAlex said:

Units can only be passive when they are neutral. This is an invasion, so they must either attack or try to escape. My opinion is that the scouts should attack, as the aliens have not yet met a decent resistance among the fighters of mankind.

 The current scout does not resist at all during the interception. Here is a balanced version of Scout.

scout.json

I would make them try and run for the most part, their purpose is to scout and they really don't want to lose all of that valuable information to one of the xenonauts's angels. The destroyer should be the first really aggressive ship that the xenonauts encounter. 

[MrAlex]

14 minutes ago, Kamehamehayes said:

they really don't want to lose all of that valuable information to one of the xenonauts's

They have not yet met resistance among the fighters of mankind, they do not know that the Angel can defeat them in battle.

[Kamehamehayes]

2 hours ago, MrAlex said:

They have not yet met resistance among the fighters of mankind, they do not know that the Angel can defeat them in battle.

I would assume the aliens would not underestimate the xenonauts and assume that the angels can take out the relatively ill equipped scouts, so instead the scouts would retreat trying to keep the valuable information on earth's major regions (like their development, population distribution, general panic level, etc) that they acquired throughout the scouting missions. 

[andy079]

6 hours ago, Kamehamehayes said:

I would assume the aliens would not underestimate the xenonauts and assume that the angels can take out the relatively ill equipped scouts, so instead the scouts would retreat trying to keep the valuable information on earth's major regions (like their development, population distribution, general panic level, etc) that they acquired throughout the scouting missions. 

Yeah I agree with this, the whole point of scouts is to collect information. What good is that if they charge into fights and get themselves blown up? I'd expect the aliens to at least send their cheapest fighter/interceptor if they wanted to test the combat capabilities of xenonaut aircraft

Edited March 14, 2021 by andy079

[Alienkiller]

I agree fully with Kamehamehayes and Andy079, the SCOUT is no fighter.

If someone don´t understand that, will get captivated in a Scout-Plane and get attacked from a real Fighter with practice Ammunition. Then I wanna see that People in that situation, which saying a Scout-Plane / Scout-UFO have to fight like a real fighter.

That remembers me on the Movie Sky Fighters, where the one Women from an Special Policy Bureau make this Experiance with a Trick from the affected Pilot (without captivation) and his Friend, which played the Attacker. Don´t remember what was the Source about she insist on their Opinion. And she repent this Experiance. If you don´t wanna have the same Experiance, read historicals about Scout-Planes and Fighters. Then we can talk again.

If no one want the same Experiance like the Scout-Pilots and Observers or in Sky Fighters, have to accept that a Scout is for Scouting and will flee assp from the real Human Fighters.

 

About using the differnt UFOs with Sebillians (the not so talented Aliens), Cesans (the first talented Aliens with different ranks), the Wraits (atm the most talented Aliens) and not shown ones, we can talk about in the using from the UFOs they have.

Scout = run away from a fight like its doing now. Have the Disadvanteges like it have since beginning (a similar Hull like our X-25, Speed, Accelleration, Maneuverability etc.) and a light Adantage (a little bit more Armor then the X-25)

Scout = Sebillian-Race: can´t fly very good and try to stop the Attackers with fast fireing with the Turret, evtl. they upgrade the Hull / Armor / Shield before the fight

Scout = Cesan-Rance:  make more Evasive Manouvers and try to outmaneuver the Attackers, using the Turret effective against the Attacker, try to hit his sensitive Parts to slow him / her down etc.

Scout = Wraith-Race: like te Cesans, but with more effectivnes in Eavasive Manouvers and Outmaneuvering the Attackers. Hit sensitve Parts from the Attacking-Fighters much better then Ceasn-Race

The Destroyer is an Upgraded Scout-Variant to make Ground-Attack-Roles, making Supply Runs and can fight a little bit better. But therefore the Disadvantages from the Scouts get more apperaing.

The real biginning fighting UFOs of that Model are the Oberserver (not Handling without the Sindwinder-Upgrade, Armor-Upgrade and Laser-Canons) and the UFOs before (forgott its name) which get scraped throug with the Accelerated Cannon and Sidwinders. Both comming in End March / Beginning April. If we get an implementation with the different Races with her Advanteges and Disadvanteges then that 2 real beginning fighting UFOs are much harder to handle then they are now. That´s fully OK, if we let the other UFOs before easy to handle.

The Scout and Destroyer are good to handle, but then it beginnis to be very very hard. To make the Scouts and Destroyers a Fighting Mashine get Players away instead to bring them. Like in all other Games of that Gerne before and after, the light and beginning medium UFOs should be handable from the Player in Combats. And the Fighters which escort some there are effective ones against the Human Fighters in the Beginning and later on advanced Variants.

 

 

Edited March 14, 2021 by Alienkiller

[MrAlex]

On 3/13/2021 at 8:39 PM, Kamehamehayes said:

I would assume the aliens would not underestimate the xenonauts and assume that the angels can take out the relatively ill equipped scouts, so instead the scouts would retreat trying to keep the valuable information on earth's major regions (like their development, population distribution, general panic level, etc) that they acquired throughout the scouting missions. 

In fact, it is less important what we think, it is important what the developers decide. I only emphasized that UFOs should either attack or try to avoid a fight (your opinion). In the current patch 18.1, they do not try to escape and save valuable information, they simply ignore the player's fighter while he attacks. This behavior is wrong.

Speaking of non-warships. And in the settings I found a preset for the Probe and Drons. Probes are more suitable for information gathering missions. In the original UFO, these were small single-pilot ships that always avoided combat with a player and could not survive interception (if the player was still able to catch up), but could be captured if the team caught them on the ground during their mission.

Edited March 15, 2021 by MrAlex

[MrAlex]

17 hours ago, Alienkiller said:

I agree fully with Kamehamehayes and Andy079, the SCOUT is no fighter.

I'm not saying they're fighters. Considering the events that preceded the emergence of the Xenonauts organization: No human fighter could survive the battle against the UFO, there is no reason for the first UFO scouts to be afraid of the player's fighters. And only after several such defeats should the aliens begin to view the player's fighters as a threat to the scouts by sending destroyers or scouts covered by fighters on missions. The problem is that in the latest version, they behave incorrectly, they do not attack or run away, just do not pay attention to the player.

 

17 hours ago, Alienkiller said:

To make the Scouts and Destroyers a Fighting Mashine get Players away instead to bring them.

I do not propose to make them warships. I want the player to feel the fight. I think that the player should be able to take part in simple battles with scouts to understand the controls and interface (if the developers do not come up with any additional instructions).

In my preset, I gave them a lot of mobility because you complained about the suggestion to reduce the angle of their cannons, supporting the idea of the developers, when the developers voiced their opinion that player fighters should always take damage in battle (According to you - reducing the angle of attack made them easy victim for the player, because he could easily attack them from behind). Now the developers have done the exact opposite. The scout does not attack at all and does not try to escape. He simply ignores the fighters and falls without ever firing. And it suits you.

I have the impression that you have no own opinion at all. As a flunkey, you agree with any decision of the developers and try to justify it.

[Alienkiller]

The Scout trying to flee, therefore it has to turn around. Like the Harvester and Observers if it sees an Fighter or a Fighter-Sqad. But you are faster with the X-25.

The Destroyer, Fighters are attacking with all Consequences. 

I have played until April / Mai on the Weekend and Must say that the UFOs are hard to handle at this Point. 
 

If the Alien-Species-Specials there can be implemented it would be cool. Then that Problems get solved you have with the Airfight yet.

 

 

 

 

[MrAlex]

20 hours ago, Alienkiller said:

The Scout trying to flee

No, it is not. When the UFO tries to escape, he immediately starts doing it. The scout in version 18.1 is set to do nothing. He just keeps the starting course and does not pay attention to the player's fighters. Maybe it's just a test of a new feature, but I don't understand why it's needed.

[Alienkiller]

MrAlex let us not wrangle on this Point. I will try your new Scout-Thing in the next Game-Upgrade (if there comes one for Beta 18).

Should there come Beta 19 instead and the Scout has the atm Status, i will try your Scout-Upgrade there. Is that a Deal? Before we leceterate ourselves in the Aircombat-Rebelance.

Much cooler it would be, if like from others and me announced the Alien-Races Advantages / Disadvantages in the Airfight could be implemented, that would make the Airfight just as exciting as the Ground Fight.

Evtl. your Ideas and that could be combined incl. the Ideas with Clouds, Rain, Stormy and such in Ground and Airbattles.

 

Edited March 16, 2021 by Alienkiller

[MrAlex]

The impression from the first air battle against the aliens is very important to interest people to continue playing this game. That's why we need to make the fight against the scout (the first UFO faced by the player) interesting. That's why I hate the idea of being turned Scout into a victim which doesn't make a single shot at a player.

In general, it is desirable that the first UFOs appear where the player's base is located. That the player's first battle against the aliens was an air battle, then a ground mission with it. And only then the first raid of aliens.

I support any creative ideas for improving air combat. But I will not agree with the ideas that (in my opinion) make it worse.

I think we and the developers can create something special if we work together. The main thing is to determine what exactly we want within what we can.

[Alienkiller]

To make a Great the Day / Night-Effects are in already. Then for the Airfight the Weapons and Armors get refited too as an first step. As an second Step you get 1 slot more for Upgrades again, which is a must have (that´s exactly what we had in the Beta-Test-Beginning for Fighter-Upgrades). I have only to find out what the Alenium-Reactor-Upgrade brings on Bonuses.

The UFOs get upgrades too in Armor / Shield and Hull-Differntation in the same Breath as a first step. Thats very cool now, but the UFO-Pedia (Archive) could get an refit with Standard-Stats of the UFOs like it will be for the Alien-Races (Sebilians, Cesans, Wraiths, Androns, etc.).

Means: The UFOs themselfs remain the same as they are now with all Advantages and Disadvantages. They get upgrades in some Parts (like our Interceptors) with the Crew (belongs on the Alien-Race the UFO is flying) onboard. Examples what can be done I gave several times and I´m tired to tell them in the row again and again.

Combined with the announced Weathter-Part (Rain, Stormy, Cloudy etc.) from the Devs it will give an cool combination and upgrade the existing System.

MrAlex, like I said, I will test your Upgrade from the Scout, maybe we can use it as basic for the UFO- / Crew-Combination.

 

 

[Grotesque]

On 3/5/2021 at 2:08 PM, Chris said:

The other thing to consider is the question I've been puzzling over - how can we make the air combat less repetitive?

 

 

Something gameplay wise is not boring/repetitive when the stakes are high, the players needs to constantly adapt (UFO fight encounter involves part random events, part player skill, part pilot skill), the game art is beautiful and when there are enough complex systems forming a whole and those systems are synergetic and have important implications during that particular event.

 

High stakes

 

Exotic materials scarcity

The materials needed to greatly advance your tech via R&D should be acquired only from rare artifacts found only in UFOs. Not all UFOs are destined to have them, whatever their class.

 

UFO interception scarcity

Intercepting and being able to intercept an UFO should be a big deal. The majority of time, (more so at the start of the game) the player  will not be able to catch up if them.

 

Tension derives from uncertainty. An UFO must be relentlessly  pursued by scrambled planes from different bases that are strategically placed.

 

Planes should be able to tail an UFO until others from other bases can join the  fight to increase the odds of success.

 

This will put the player in front of a dilemma:  wait for others but risk to lose the UFO or risk to be shot down (or sacrifice precious materials for repairs) but get the prize.

 

 

UFO lethality

 

No interaction with UFOs will come lightly. The possibility in gain of exotic materials will always cost large amounts of conventional resources and sometime pilot lives.

Boredom always arises when there’s player complacency and lack of tension.

Every UFO class/subclass has its special traits/maneuvers but not always. 

 

 

 

Game art

 

Fallout 1's combat became boring relatively fast but what never got old were those death animations accompanied by exquisite sound design.

 

Art could be stylized but planes and UFOs are in 3D.  Hits must feel visceral, player receives visual & audio feedback, hits leave marks, planes physically react to hits, background reflects the area on the globe where combat takes place, etc

 

 

 

Random events, pilot & external factors

 

Random events

Unexpected engine failure

Pilot blackout while maneuvering

Dud missile

Weapon jam

Overly aggressive UFO

Lucky penetration

Pilot adrenaline rush

Pilot panic/ untimely ejection

Fuel loss

 

 

 

External factors

 

Weather (storms/lightning strikes, poor vision, increased failure of planes, increased time for lock on)

Time  (day/night combat implications)

Altitude (high altitude = poor performance for specific engines)

              (low altitude,=possibility for  friendly anti-aircraft battery intervention,

                                    higher plane frame stress during maneuvers)

 

Pilot stats (influences random events)

Endurance (constant performance output)

Spatial awareness (impressive maneuvers, extreme ejection, push the envelope)

Mental toughness (panic resistance, feats of bravery)

Zealotry (kamikaze tactics, self-sacrifice)

 

 

Combat

 

Combat takes place in three dimensional space.

Combat involves simultaneous turns (  gameplay ethos similar to Phantom Brigade )

 

Combat involves different stages (long range and close range/dogfight)

Long range: firing long range missiles and maneuvering for optimal starting areas for next stage.

Close range: using short range missiles and autocanons.

Players has access to predefined maneuvers.

Player input is by combining different maneuvers depending on the situation.

Newer planes and high pilot skill unlock more evasive complex maneuvers.

 

 

Planes engagement duration is limited by the amount of fuel when engaging in combat (longer pursuit, lower on fuel, more agility)

 

Player can trade fuel (external tanks) for agility.

Player has the possibility to keep planes on mission past the point of no return (during UFO pursuit or actual engagement) by sacrificing the plane but not the pilot (ejection).

Ejection always has a chance to injure the pilot and even a lower chance for death (ejection system failure)

 

Player can trade chance to hit for security.

Longer aiming time, more chance to be hit by the UFO.

 

Player turn has a countdown.

The firing arcs/zones of the UFO weapons are more broad as the weapon damage is lower.

 

Edited April 25, 2021 by Grotesque

[Alienkiller]

@Grotesque:

I have overflown your Post and there are nice Ideas in it. But some are are a No Go, because you make the Airfight then like in the new XCOM-Games, which was a big Flop. The Devs here wanna bring back the original Flow (like the Devs in UFO ET / UFO2ET), where you win or lose with the Pilots.

1. Exotic Materials: = are already in the Game and producing Airplaines are very very costly, esp. the R & D ones. In that case we don´t need more difficultys, which make the Game then an Shopkeeper.

2. UFO Interception scarcity: = is already in, because the UFOs are operating in differnt Places, esp. in that ones where you don´t have your Base. That makes the Game already hard, esp. in the beginning and mid Phase where you don´t have enough Bases, Fighters and Outposts. If the Outposts and Geoscape get more upgraded, then evtl. you can try to help the finance-States in fighting the UFOs, because that was too the orignialy Idea from the Devs too if you look at Kickstarter.

3. UFO Lethality: = Yeah, exaclty that we discuss here and try to find solutions to make the Airfight better. The Crew and the UFO they flying are the Key Point. If Sebillians flying, then they are not good in Maneuvering, but can work better with the Guns. If Ceasans are Flying, then they better Maneuver and shoot only if they see the White in the enemys Eyes. Other Alien-Races?? Commanders / Generals (like from the Ceasans) from the Races etc. bring evtl. Bonuses.

4. Game Art: = Yeah, the Voice and similar what is in such a Fight get Missing. Maybe there is something doable to make that Fight more interessting. And the Refit of the Map isn´t finished yet, so evtl. something of your Idea from that will come in. Not everthing, because the Game must be playable on not so good Mashines too (like Laptops, and Medium Spec PCs), but Voice / Soundeffects shouldn´t be a problem.

5. Random Events: = not needed, esp. the Panic-Things. Then you will lose the Game, before it begunn. And such elememts make it an Shopkeeper. What is evtl. possible is the Damage the Fighters can get and the Pilot Blackout.

6. External Factors: Yes such elements will get in like the Weather. That was announced an will come. We will see it in the next Air-Battle-Screens what it can do and what not.

7. Pilot Stats: We have Pilots and if all goes well, they get Stats. What influence they have we will see in the next version / versions like the Stats the Aliens have with the UFOs.

8. Combat: That Round-Tactic we testet in the first playable Versions of the Game. And all Beta-Testers as well as the Devs agreed that this get out of the Question. So there wont be a change in the very good exsisting Real-Time Fighting with the Pause-Option.

UFO ET and UFO2ET have such an Real-Time System as well as the old X-Com Games and many of the Fan-Projects. The only one which was not good was the Fighting-System from the new XCOM: EU / EW-Series. There the Devs from Firaxis have to find something better. The Fighting System from Xenonauts is atm the best I have seen in my over 30 Years I play such Games.

Edited April 26, 2021 by Alienkiller