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Question about armor

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At the moment, all types of armor (aircraft, vehicle, soldier) give armor as additional hit points. But I think it's worth thinking about change (Armor to reduce damage constantly). I plan to offer developers my ideas in the near future.

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Armor for Vehicles and Infantry are like they are announced. Real Armor with Armor-Points. Means that Shots get blocked or reduce the Damage, belongs on the Weapons you and the Aliens use and the Armor Status.

On Aircraft (Fighters) it´s not atm. There Armor upgrade Standard-HP´s, which is :(. The Infantry and Vehicle Armor show who it is done correctly.

 

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That's not how armor works. Just because you are shot by one bullet doesn't mean entire vest is useless.

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That I mean with the Description. The Armor reduces Damage or block it fully (like the light Vests the Police Officers carry in Duty). With more R & D it blocks more Damage.

Exactly that is doing the Armor from the MARS- / ARES-Vehicles, the Combat Shields and the Infantry-Armor, which is very cool. And exactly that we need for our Aircrafts too.

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23 hours ago, Alienkiller said:

Combat Shields and the Infantry-Armor, which is very cool

Combat Shield blocks damage from only one direction. Therefore, the current implementation of such a shield is fine.

One shot makes one hole in the armor, if it penetrated. The next shot must re-pierce the armor, if it did not hit the same hole. For example: If one hole was made in the soldier's back, the armor still has to protect the chest. That is why the current armor is not normal.


The probability of getting into the same hole is very small, so it can be ignored. It will be more correct if the protection of armor will reduce the value of weapon damage each time.

Edited by MrAlex
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For Standard 9 mm, 7,62 mm or such your Description is correct. Therefore our Infantry-Armors are concipatet. But not for the special Alien Weapons or special Ammo (like the AP in different names) which are overflying the Infantry-Armors we have and the light upgraded Versions at the beginning incl. the Armor-Vests.

In that our Infantry-Armors are like against an Halberd, Quarrel or similar medival Weapons, which shows the fight against the Aliens.

 

 

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Armor is armor. It doesn't matter if you shoot it with a pistol, a rifle, or a plasma rifle. From something it protects better, from something worse (depending on the penetration), but still protects. The current implementation is good for magnetic shields or something like that, which weaken when blocking damage and are less effective with each shot. But the armor works as I described above.

We can combine shields with armor. We can even do research to reload shields in battle. That would be very interesting.

Edited by MrAlex

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If you look correctly, the first hit from an alien weapon on a soldier with armor get the reduction from the armor.

Alien Magnetic Weapons do 45 Damage per Shot.

Kevlar Armor reduces about 25 if I remember correctly. The Damage the Soldier get is still 20, the Armor-Points get away with this first hit.

The Soldier without Armor gets the full damage and he / she could die.

That’s the example head to head, means that the system works fully correctly (100 %). 

An other Aspect of Influence is the Range, which reduces the ability to hit and damage the Enemy with 100%.

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22 minutes ago, Alienkiller said:

Kevlar Armor reduces about 25 if I remember correctly. The Damage the Soldier get is still 20, the Armor-Points get away with this first hit.

Exactly. Don't you read what I'm saying? At the moment, the armor gives extra hit points instead of armor (which gives constant protection). One shot and armor no longer provides protection, although it is only one hole in the armor. 

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Hello, your friendly neighborhood moderator here. One of the few benefits of moderation is having a long memory. Discussion threads about armour and weapons in a game like this are like cud. They're often chewed on, swallowed then regurgitated to be chewed on again. MrAlex, I think this thread would be of benefit to you, as it was the last time armour was publically discussed. I'm sure you'll find the bickering and squabbling amusing. I direct you to this post and this page in particular.

 

EDIT: Seeing as almost a years has passed since there was a response to anything in that thread, could everyone please keep comments on this thread? Cheers.

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Some people want to understand armor.... I'm going to blast you all with a counterpoint and say that we should make it complicated with no regard for human reasoning, and yet easily understood/felt.

For players, have different styles of armor using different mechanics/formulas balanced by resource cost and research levels. Armor should act differently, and different styles should take different resources forcing people playing on the correct difficulty to run a hodgepodge mix. Players can influence (or decide if they're lucky) the armor mix by tactical and strategic choices such as:

  • Breaching alternate UFO entrances to get better positions but less alien alloys
  • Risking rookies to capture live aliens to get alien McGuffins
  • Focusing on vehicles and using it as bait/armor
  • Focusing on other strategic concerns like the airgame/base expansion and just having naked dudes run around

This gives players choice and should provide interesting gameplay/strategic dilemmas. 

For alien armor, different species should have different mechanics. The first few alien armors to be encountered should be ablative HP based, and after that, you can go wild with armor mechanics. However, we should be able to research a way to find out what species we'll encounter on a mission so we can prepare for the Androns or whatever that makes pistols and shotguns useless, or some super fast flying bugs/saucers that have a no HP but an accuracy penalty for the first few shots fired at them making sniper rifles useless, and etc.

Here, let me toss some examples out for a player armor progression:

Research level 0:

1) Overhardened ceramic combat armor

  • Tanks 1 ballistic/chemical shot (no matter how damaging or insignificant) to the chest (75% chance to activate) only and immediately becomes a burden only meant to slow your dudes down afterwards.
  • Shots that hit unarmored legs, arms, head, etc. means you're basically unarmored (when you fail the 75%)

2) Unarmored Xenonauts 1 style

  • Spiffing blue helmet and comfortable uniform, giving reflex and TU bonuses
  • 1% weird accidental chance of enemy fire ricocheting off said spiffing blue helmet and no other protection
  • Style points

Research Level 0a:

1) Stun protection

  • Early research project, upgrades both previous armors.
  • Padding and rebreather/SCBA system stops stun damage.
  • Maybe no visual difference.

Research Level 1:

1) Alien alloy combat armor like Jackal in X1

  • Nearly better than ceramic in every way
  • Basically adds HP
  • Weighs a lot, TU and reflex debuff
  • Has to be built with alien alloys

2) Upgraded combat shield

  • Replaces stock combat shield, meant to be used with unarmored
  • takes away 1 hand to use
  • HP and direction based

Research Level 1a:

1) Reverse engineered alien force-field

  • Adds HP without the penalties
  • Takes only 50% damage from incendiary/energy
  • Has to be built with alien alloys + some other expensive McGuffin
  • DOES NOT WORK IN COVER because it interferes with sensors or something I dunno I can write a paragraph that convinces you if you want to.
  • Bulky so cannot wear armor with it

2) Unarmored Jetpacks

  • Fly, that's it
  • Requires alien energy McGuffin

3) Perfected Ceramics

  • Like ceramic, but tanks a single shot from any direction and now without penalties
  • Meant to be the standard free armor from now on

Research Level 2:

1) Perfected Alien Alloy combat armor like the Wolf:

  • Better than alien alloy, needs more alloys, same debuffs
  • ignores x damage no matter what

2) Shielded Alien Alloy combat armor:

  • Like alien alloy, but needs expensive McGuffin 
  • combination of alien alloy and reverse engineered alien force-field

3) Shielded Jetpack:

  • Made from jetpack and expensive McGuffin
  • Can fly and has force field

...and so on

I can write out the alien counterpart if people think this has potential.

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The Armor System is as good as it is now and is 1.000.000 % better then in all Predecessors (X-Com EU / Tftd, new XCOM, UFO Extraterestials, other Fan-Projects of that Gerne). An similar System, but not so good like here tried to bring in X-Com Apoc and Phoenix Point.

Edited by Alienkiller

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Then play anything else. I and the other 99% don´t discuss about about an good Armor-System which shows the rivals how it´s done correctly.

We dosen´t need an downgrade to 08/15 like it was in X1, the old X-Com, UFO Extraterestials etc. where you have the only Options to have 1 Armor without Induviduals or no Armor. The Mods in X1 tried to to what we get in X2 now and that won´t be changed anymore. That´s the End of that Discussion.

Edited by Alienkiller

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Ok Alienkiller, that's stepping over the line. Specifically, "go play something else" is stepping over the line. People have the right to both approve and disapprove of choices made for X2 and to voice their approval or disapproval so long as it's done in a civil manner. 

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That could be Max_Caine. I was very :mad: the Weeks and had an explosion in me. After I saw the to complicated system announced here the Reaction was what you all read. Esp. after I read the Discussions in Steam about the Game and already Implementions as well as the new Demo-Version from People which have no Clue what we all [Devs and the other People which Programming the Game and Betatesters] have done together so far.

An other Part what makes me very :mad: is that People wanna have the old 08/15 without improvements / refits back or a too much complicate system. The first makes Game boring and in our todays Management it don´t get buyed / played. We are not in the 1980´s / 1990´s anymore. The second makes the Game unplayable. It have to be playable and traceable in R & D for a Standard-Gamer and not too complicate.

Such an complicated System was testet in X-COM: TftD and about 80 % to 90 % (if it were so less) of the Gamers never finished that Game. That we wanna avoid in X2. The about 10 to 20 % of the Gamers which have ever finished TftD had to write up the correct R & D-Tree, means the other 80 % to 90 % could only play the Game after they had a printed R & D-Tree on their desk or the correct Link to the R & D-Tree in I-Net.

An other Example is the Hearts of Iron Row with the Titles 1 to 3 with all Add-Ons. They were to complicated and Hoi 4 with all his Patches / DLC´s and upcomming Patches / DLC´s are playable for Standard-Gamers. That´s the facts.

 

What I sayed about the Game-Competitors are that they have an Armor System which gives you only the Option to have an Armor or go unarmored. In PP and the last 2 old X-COM Parts (Interceptor as well as Apocalypse) you could test with different Armor-Variant-Parts (Helmet, Torso, Legs in PP and Apoc / upgrading the Armor and Shields in Interceptor). 

X2 have to be in the Armor System / Shield System the new Pioneer. It combines the Things from new XCOM (Vest, Armor) and PP (Eqipment, Shield??, Basemanagement) in one as well as upgrades it to a new Level. It´s still not perfect, there I agree and some Parts of Information [how good the Armor protect against Laser, Plasma, Poison, Smoke etc.] is missing atm. The Main Thing is that the System is easy to handle, which it is, as well as not taking away places for other important Equipment (f. e. Weapons, Ammo, Grenades, C4, first Aid Kit).

Everything else is only balancing with the further Game-Development to the Alien and Human Armors for Airforce, Roborts / Vehicles and Soldiers. That the Cevlar-Vest and improved Cevlar-Vest can´t handle the first Alien Weapons etc. are clear. They are devoloped for Standard-Human-Ammo / light Explosvies and not for special Armor-Pearcing as well as Hurting Ammo the Aliens have. Neither the high Energy Explosives / high Energy Weapons the Aliens and Humans have will protect your Soldiers.

The best Armor with and without a Combat Shield / beginning Armors / first upgraded Armors are still cover!

Edited by Alienkiller

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4 hours ago, Alienkiller said:

Such an complicated System was testet in X-COM: TftD and about 80 % of the Gamers never finished that Game.

Why are you so sure that the problem was in the armor?

Many people just might not like the game. Like me, for example. For me, the most interesting content is air battles, which are too simple in this series and many other similar games.

I find the most interesting armor system is a combination of shields and armor (like Protoss in Starcraft). There are separately balanced shields and armor. First, the damage is absorbed by the shields, then the unit takes damage on the HP, depending on the defence of its armor. Both armor and shields have separate upgrades. This is the most realistic combination of alien technologies. And it is easy to understand.
In addition, such a system provides a lot of opportunities for upgrades (fighters, vehicles, soldiers).

 

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MrAlex that´s not the Problem here. The Problem is that Players which haven´t had done our big tested Armor-Implementing-System wanna make it too complex.

Means that we have at the End about 80 to 100 Armors and Vests, which you can´t produce and waste of Time in R & D. Instead the existing system should make stable and upgrades could get in like it is now. That´s easyer and what the Mods of X1 try to do, but only in X2 it can be done like they wished with the now tested System.

It´s easy, skin the things (only have to be ballanced with more Game-Development) which are important and can be upgraded more or less.

 

 

Edited by Alienkiller

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@Alienkiller

HoI2/DarkestHour is much more simple than HoI4. It just has a bit more micromanagement in land combat, and that's what makes the land combat great. Every other part of it is bad really.

The only difference in TFTD in terms of armor systems is that the damage distribution is 0-200% instead of 50-150%. This is necessary for higher armor/damage values to not be completely impenetrable. That's why it's used in some large OpenXCOM mods, they have wildly different armor/damage values as well.

However TFTD is definitely "too experimental", everyone seems to dislike the multi-part luxury cruise missions with opening locker after locker full of heavily armored crabs then relying on RNG to down them. But on the other hand, TFTD was very much a rushed game, basically same as the original but with swimming and new levels/enemies. If you remove the really weird levels/enemies then it would be considered basically just a reskin and would not sell very well at all.

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16 hours ago, Alienkiller said:

Means that we have at the End about 80 to 100 Armors and Vests

The problem is that it works as a shield, not as armor. Additional protection points are typical for the shield. Armor should reduce damage from each shot. I described my idea in more detail HERE.

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MrAlex, I think I know what you mean. Then you think we should implement a similar System like in PP or X-Com Interceptor / X-Com Apocalypse, where the Armor get damaged and with more hits there get so much damaged, that she can´t hold damage to HP anymore.

Torso and Helmet blocks the most, Arms and Legs lesser. Hmm... that could work, if it get the same for the Human / Robotic Aliens (the Terminators).

But then it have to be done for the Fighters, UFO´s, Transport-Planes and MARS / ARES-Vehicles too. And with the Budget we have as reserve for the next 2 or 4 Months it will be hard, but that belongs to the Devs.

The one thing what is not doable is to make 200 Vests / Armors with 1.000 differnt Things.

Edited by Alienkiller

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12 hours ago, Alienkiller said:

And with the Budget we have as reserve for the next 2 or 4 Months it will be hard

I do not know their budget. I'm not asking them to do it right now, I'm just offering an idea for improvement. Developers have to decide which way to go, simple or complex. But in any case, it will be better than just the additional HP we have now.

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Chris mentioend it in an Version- or Monthly-Information not to go into Early Access now and can swith the Early Access for a few Monthes with the Budget-Reserves we have.

That´s we have to look for atm with the missing improvements we need for Early Access (Pictures, Researach & Development, Geoscape, Basemanagement-Things etc.) and the Refits which are nessecarry (Ground Combat, Air Combat, Fighters & Transports with Armor-Elements, Upgrades etc. as well as the same for MARS / ARES and Soldiers). Some of that is already in WIP, others will come.

We will see what can be done to that Point. I think the Devs will take the simple solution but a better one then it is atm. ATM it´s a solution the new XCOM is using (have remembered that too), but maybe we will get an cool and simple Solution like in UFO ET with UNI-Mod (where the Armor get lesser with every attack and the Soldier get hurt on HP later on) or in PP (which uses a similar system with the Difference that you could say what Body-Part the Soldier should hit).

The UNI-Mod Solution have erveything implemented:

- against AP

- against Energy

- against PSY

- against Fire

- against Poisen

- against EMP

and 2 more I have forgotten. That upgrades the Standard-Game and Gold-Version a lot. Not only for your Soldiers and Vehicles, the same for the Aliens too. And the UFO´s, Aliens and such get better explained with Armor, Shield, HP etc. Maybe on that we should orient us for the Armor Upgrades.

Sadly there are no lighter Vests in UFO ET and PP as well as in all older X-COM-Versions implemented which can be used like here. I have seen that for the old X-COM-Games only in the Open-X-COM-Fan-Project.

The Vests could be upgradeable like some Armor. Means that the light AP-Vests could get an upgrade to get the same AP with the Healing (MedicVest) as an Upgrade. You only choose then how many Vests should get the Upgrade, the others will get an other one.

That´s easy to implement and we had this already in Game, which is and was a realy good thing. With that some of the Ideas from Some12U could be implemented and don´t explode our Budget before the Game is ready for Early Access.

Edited by Alienkiller

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1 hour ago, Alienkiller said:

Healing (MedicVest) as an Upgrade.

Honestly, for me there is a very strange presence of additional bonuses in vests: Regeneration, AP, accuracy, etc.
I can't explain how this could work in real combat: a vest can only complicate a soldier's movement and accuracy, not improve it.

If there is a desire to add modules with similar improvements, it should be done as an additional slot in the armor. Slot where you can install an additional module of the player's choice:
1) antigrav, which facilitates armor and gives AP
2) Additional sight in the helmet for accuracy
3) medical installation for regeneration
4) Additional cameras to improve the viewing angle or reaction of the soldier
5) stimulants to reduce panic
6) and so on.

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