Game play Panic and Economics

[Dren608]

Some observations that I think would effect an Early access impression of the game.

I am playing within the current 16.2b panic and economic system so no Cheats to get unlimited funds, etc.

Panic

The panic level goes up 20 per month starting with the 2nd month in every region. If you don't do anything about it you loose after that happens 4 times.

Because you can't cover the Globe from one base there are random UFO "incident reports" that look to raise panic 1 point for each so you might not get "4 times" above in every region.

So what can you do? The command sites you can develop (for $250,000 each) reduce the panic 1 time by 10 (and gives you some extra income and recruit-able scientists/engineers). You have to do this as it looks like when panic get over 50 your funding from that region goes down by 1/3, over 75 down by half. There are only 5 sites per region so you get another 2 months from this. There was at least one Research topic that gave you a 10 panic reduction across all regions so maybe + 3 months delay all totaled. Then there are Agents each one reduces panic by 10 in one region where they are deployed. These Agents "appear" (recruited) by some under the hood mechanic, so never know when you will have them available.

There are no other ways of mitigating Panic that I can see. Deploy a Base in a region, panic untouched. Shoot down UFO's in a region Panic untouched. Stop a raid, terror mission, destroy an alien base in a region and panic is untouched. Under the current system you will  "panic out" in about 12 months at best from what I can tell. and lose 1-2 regions well before that. This leads into the next part which is the economics.

Economics

So in typical X-com/Xenonauts style we are an after thought when being funded. OK, to an extent, that is what these games are about.

There are the funding regions that if you don't manage their Panic levels will dry up quickly. However to mange their Panic requires you to spend $250,000 close to 25% of your monthly funding on a command center, after expenses at start, to just take down one region 10 Panic. You will need to do roughly 2 regions a month in cycle to keep the regions under 50 panic as much as possible, otherwise their funding goes down.

To get more coverage you need to build more bases which cost $1,000,000 to just get the Access space built. You will need to build about another approx. $500,000 in structures, for just an air base with two hangers, Radar, Generator, 2 more Aircraft at 250,000 each(starting interceptors cost). So to get to being truly functional maybe about $2,000,000.  You can generate some of this from taking the cash from shot down UFO's, but then you will be resource short for all the Weapons, Aircraft, Armor, Defenses, Detection upgrades you need to get done. (Side note the Access shaft has a $250,000 maintenance cost while it looks like all other structures run at 10% of original cost so maybe that should be reduced to be consistent - it would help the economics a bit too). Additionally it costs you time to build those extra interceptors etc. so another drain on resources, i.e. things not being built so you can take down UFOs and containing Raid/Terror/Alien Base missions, oh and the odd UFO mission.

Sources of income are Funding Regions (panic management required), and shot down UFOs you delegate out. Selling the odd collection of Alien corpses. There is no "economic engine" you can get going (Original X-Com you could sell Laser cannons for a decent profit once you got the bases set-up and going). We have nothing like that here.

So you end up spending Cash to mitigate Panic, to generate Cash that let's you mitigate Panic, and you never can invest properly in upgrades to weapons etc. to the extent that you can control the Alien invasion.

 

If this is the way it will be in Early Access - I think you will get a negative response. The narrative after the first orbital bombardment talks about success vs Aliens mitigating the Panic, but none of your successes do that, only you spending money to activate Command centers and deploying randomly gained "agents". I think that while the Panic mechanic is a good "goad" it seems way to much of a "win now" (4 months) or die. And you don't have the resources or research speed to win in 4 months. The idea that your successes in shooting down UFOs, ending Raids, Terror sites and destroying Alien Bases does not reduce the panic in a region/globally makes the game seem unwinnable. We want Early access folks to feel that can win the end product, Right now if I was not a veteran of Strategic games (I go back to Avalon Hill board games) I would try this out and quit and never play again after 4 months of the Game. To many constraints and now way to relieve them.

 

Something to think about, we want lots of people to want to play this right?

My initial thought would be tweak economics (reduce the access shaft maintenance), maybe have some way to get "one time cash" for research projects (we published!)?.

Panic: Maybe build in a scaling of the Panic mechanic, Lower at first (governments saying "working on it") and if you don't get a handle on it it starts to go up faster every few months.

Here's a basis for Panic for discussion:

Instead of 20 globally (all regions) go 15 for the region where city is and 5 in the other 4. Make the choice of region truly random so we can't pattern a response (i.e. well that one is lowest/highest so it will be hit next or some other pattern) Being purely random (well as random as a computer can be) in the bombardment means we need to react and maybe even then it won't matter (3 months of just your cities going down will make a region rather cranky, and despite our best efforts may have them give up).

Also give us a reduction of Panic something like this (half or maybe less) of what  the panic would go up, if we failed, for successful Raid and Terror missions. For Shot down UFOs, 1 point reduction for each $100,000 (round down) of what the delegation value is and we delegate. (if we get greedy and want all the tech for ourselves the public won't see  their "government at work" - I call it the "Men in Black effect"). I would think a one time reduction of say 5 or 10 when you build a base in a region (they cost enough so you should get a minor boost from the area).

Just some thoughts on trying to look at this from the perspective of the first time user or the gamer that wants to see a possibility of winning. Currently it seems impossible just doing the mathematics, we don't want that perception.

 

[MrAlex]

2 hours ago, Dren608 said:

you could sell Laser cannons

I agree. The sale of manufactured laser, MAG and plasma weapons and bulletproof vests, etc. should be at a higher price than the cost of their manufacture. As well as accelerated rifles and shotguns.

[Alienkiller]

Good explenation from your side and you see the Game. The 2 Points (Panic and Economy) are not balanced yet fully, that is true.

Point 1 (Panic): I know that we had Panic-Reduction in the last Beta-Versions 13, 14 and 15 if I remember me correctly with the Element winning Terror-Sites, capturing Alien-Bases to the announced Technology-Profileration, Agents and Command-Sites.

In that Part there are suggestions from us too, to get more ballance in it for Xenonauts Re-Reaction. The Alien-Special have to bring maximum Panic worldwide and you haven´t tested that in previous Versions, there it comes all 10 Days. 1 Time per Month (30 Days) with maximum Effect is realy fair.

Point 2 (Economy): There I have bring in an Discussion to make it better. The too costly Base-Buildup get announced from us too and therefore we discuss that hard. The facts you have said very clearly:

- Like you announced there is for 5 Bases (1Mio each) 5.000.000 per Ground and about minimum 2.000.000 to about 4.000.000 per Base only for buildings / Equipment (belongs small, medium, big) to buildup. Not included are there the monthly costs.

- An similar Effect you have in UFO ET with Base-Buildup to save the whole planet. Your maximum Founding dosen´t covering your monthly costs, so you are commited to sell from storage and production (like you announced with the good old X-Com Example).

- That´s why nobody in the orignal X-Com: UFO Enemy Unkonwn / X-Com: Terror from the Deep and X-Com: Apocalypse build more then 2 normal Bases, max. a 3rd small one. The only exeption were X-Com: Interceptor from the old Row.

My Suggestion therefore is following Idea:

- There are 6 abonded Xenonaut-Bases worldwide (Africa, Asia / Ozianen, Europe, North- and South America as well as Russia). One of that is the only low active Mainebase (Atlas-Base) like it is now, means 5 abonded Bases left to find.

- The other Bases have to be asked from the foundes with Storyline-Features and / or detected with an Agent, which is after that Mission in the Agent-Pool again, but not useable atm (like the Soldiers which have a break).

- There is only 1 medium Base as a secondary one (Emergency Base), the others are small after finding them (like in the good old X-Com: Apocalypse with a small buyed building or the 4 Year old XCOM 2 / XCOM 2 WotC with the Avenger).

- After finding them you have to invest a little money to get them active (Repairs etc.). That means you save money a lot and if we make it fair about 50 % from what you have to pay for normaly now.

[meddog50]

As the game stands now I last about 5 months and its over. I have tried 5 different strategies to stay in the game but end up in the same place come end of May. I completely agree with Dren608 that the panic and economic balances need to be tweaked before this game goes into early release. I too go back to the early days of Avalon Hill gaming. I find this game totally enjoyable and immersing while frustrating the hell out me due to the balance. I get it, that's what we are here for . I have read some great ideas in this post (Dren608). Thanks for letting me vent.

[Dren608]

I have to disagree that 1/month at 20 panic is "fair". That is 20% of panic in every region for each city bombed.  At the cost of roughly 25% of your net funding you can reduce panic in one region by 10. There is no "winning" that kind of mathematics, especially since there are a limited number of that expensive mitigation (5 centers per region).

[Dren608]

I don't know if anyone reads other Lists on this game, I just reviewed a few threads on Steam and there seems to be a general backlash to the idea of  the orbital station/"doom timer" concept.

Is there a real reason to have that be the driving factor??

As one poster put it They view this as a clandestine war vs the aliens. So we would expect it to be building up to something.

If you are blowing up cities from orbit no government is going to back "clandestine" efforts. It's a shooting war and based on the Lore you have in Game we can't win it with our best technology. So they would be spending all their resources on finding solutions, not funding some Clandestine organization.

The story just doesn't mesh together, massive global destruction from an untouchable weapon in Orbit and we are sniping at the odd alien ship flying around? Why would the aliens even bother, Wait until you have the world in a state of total anarchy and then come down and grab whatever you want, as there will be no organized resistance.

I much preferred the original premise of Aliens interfering in the Cold war and we are the "men in black" trying to keep the world from self destructing as we deal with the Aliens. That had great story possibilities. With the orbital bombardment/panic mechanic we have now it is just a "race" that short of playing perfectly and down a prescribed path we just loose. That is not a game that allows repeatability and not much enjoyment of discovery, as as soon as the "path" is discovered no one will do anything else, if you don't discover it right away you won't bother playing anymore as it just won't be fun.

I'm a backer, high enough so that I'm supposed to have a "character" in the soldier pool. With the current path the overview story is taking I'm not sure I would bother playing it. Being tied to a specific story line with a strict time limit is not the kind of game that sounds fun. Story line - yes - but let the player have the time and flexibility to solve it in numerous ways. Right now it feels like there will be one way to "win" and the rest is just wasted time. Maybe as a timer you just ramp up the alien activity in response to your success - The Original X-Com did this so that at some point you had to "finish the game" as you were being overwhelmed by the number of alien UFO's/Missons/Terror sites etc. Thus if you fumble around early the aliens aren't automatically escalating, as long as they "score more" than you they are "winning".

Since the story seems to be not one of conquest (if it were we would have already lost based on the lore in game already) you need to find out what they are after and then force them to not get it. For that you need to allow the players to explore the game and that means giving them adequate time.

Sorry for the "Rant" but it seems tied into the Balance of Panic/Economics. It seems that there are a lot of Games in this Genre that have this timer mechanic. Why does Goldhawk have to follow the crowd? From what I'm reading elsewhere there is a sizable audience that won't bother knowing that mechanic is in the game.

Hope someone Reads this and explains why we abandoned the whole "Cold War" story line, and/or why this Timer mechanic has to be a part of the game in such a prominent way.

[MrAlex]

Previously, the bombing was 3 times a month for 20 panics each (a total of 60). Now it is done once a month but in all regions (120 in total). That is, the total amount of panic has doubled. Not surprisingly, this turned out to be too much. I am also an opponent of orbital bombardment in general. It is better to double or even triple the number of arriving ships (if necessary, increase the damage to panic from each) but to abandon orbital bombing.

[Alienkiller]

@Dren608: Welcome to the Club, I´m an Backer too. I like such Elements like they are in the old and new Games of that Gerne. Without such Triggers the Games get borring like Xenonauts 1.

Sadly after the MidGenerations (like me) the Generation thereafter are good for nothing. They wanna everything easy, ready-cooked and much important not using their Brain anymore. If someone wanna have everything easy, ready-cooked and similar then he / she can play Ponnyhof.

And that´s an other Reason why about 95 % of the new Games are chuck up games. Only 5 % like Xenonauts 2, Motorsport Manager, Hearts of Iron 4, World of Warcraft-Series, Starcraft-Series, Mafia-Series, XCOM-Series are very interessting.

Therefore I´m very happy that the Gerne of such Games have that cool Stress Levels / Panic Levels or similar not changed and never change since the old X-Com-Row.

Means such Games of that Gerne and similar Gernes need such Stress Levels, Panic Levels or similar to give the Players an big challange. The good old X-Com Row, which I play again about the above named Reasons (from 1991 to 1999) have hidden Panic Levels and other Secrets.

The first UFO ET-Game, which is good thanks playable on Win 10 (a similar reprensative which 2007 came out [2012 or so as Steam Gold Version]; Part 2 is following this year) orient in many Points on the old X-Com but have improvements already implemented.

Both Rows have a 2-Year-Limiter for the Player. Either the Aliens overrun you or you win. In UFO ET and X-Com Interceptor / X-Com Apocalypse an second displayed Limiter brought in, which are the Engery-Level from the Alien-Mothership over Earth [UFO ET] / the 4 Warnings from the Aliens to Destroy Earth [X-Com: Interceptor] / the other Alien-Race [X-Com Apocalypse].

An new and cool concept Firaxis brought in the new XCOM-Row 2012 to 2018. In XCOM EU / EW you have an showed Panic Level for Countrys and the maxium Countrys you can lose. In XCOM 2 / XCOM 2 WotC the special Project (Avatar-Project) is the Limiter. That´s like in X-Com Interceptor (either you win or all humans die). 

2019 / 2020 the Gollop Brothers came back with her Phoenix Point Game (with already 2 big DLC´s and 1 small intergrated Patch-DLC). There the limiter is an new Earth-Peeling / Earth-Scinning with mutated Humans, Anymals etc. as well as the 3 Main-Colonys of Survivors.

All of that Concepts are great and Xenonauts 2 have to integrate such concepts or integrated them already [hopfully hardcoded ]. We don´t know what UFO2ET have of such cool Features get in and what cool Features will come in with the 3 more big DLC´s in Phoenix Point. Not to mention the secrets from XCOM 3.

In that case Xenonauts 2 must have such elements in his Base Game and evtl. DLC´s. The Guys in Steam which are against such elements haven´t any clue what such Games are and are such wimps above announced.

 

@Dren608 @MrAlex: Where I agree with you both that the Panic System isn´t fully balanced yet. Maybe the Devs don´t make a 2 Year-Limiter like in the orignal X-Com-Series and UFOET-Series, therefore they implement more Features to reduce Panic than in any other Rivals before (like special Missions, Technology Profilation, Outposts, etc.) as well as more Elements to End the Game (not only the Destruction of the Alien-Brain or similar).

Therefore the Aliens have her Mother-Station which make chirugical interventions. Fair is fair. 

[MrAlex]

On 1/20/2021 at 9:51 AM, MrAlex said:

Previously, the bombing was 3 times a month for 20 panics each (a total of 60). Now it is done once a month but in all regions (120 in total).

I consider it possible to make 10 panics once in 30 days in each region (60 in total), and to test it in the next patches.

[Chris]

Yeah, this is an issue I need to look at in more detail, but I don't have time to give it the attention it needs right now. As a short term fix I'll just dial back the Orbital Bombardment damage to half what it is now, which is the 10 per month value suggested above. Hopefully that'll make it easier to last further into the game.

It's fairly easy for me to tie Panic gain / reduction to anything I want at this point in development (shooting down UFOs, completing missions, completing research, etc) but even small changes have a huge effect on how the game plays so it's just something we'll need to experiment with. The same goes for monthly funding. Easy to change but what you tie it to has a huge effect on the player's incentives on the strategy layer, and not always in a good way.

EDIT - actually, let me throw a thread up on the discussion about what the best way to balance things might be (which I'll do in the next couple of days). There's useful feedback in this thread so we may as well try to focus in on how best to solve the issues.

[Chris]

On 1/20/2021 at 5:04 AM, Dren608 said:

*snip*

Thanks for the detailed thoughts in the OP. To answer the questions in your second post, I think you're probably taking a read on the importance of the Orbital Bombardment based on how you see it in the current version of the game when it's inflicting vast amounts of damage and you have no way to mitigate it. That's not the intended final balance of the system, and I suspect you'll find it much less frustrating the final game.

As to why the original "men in black" storyline was dropped, it's mostly because the original design for the strategy layer was radically different and the storyline has had to evolve as the mechanics evolved. Back then the Geoscape was turn-based, there was only a single (off-map) Xenonaut base, and there was much more abstraction in the way you tried to control countries. It turned out this wasn't much fun, and having planes and UFOs and stuff flying around on the Geoscape like in classic Xenonauts / X-Com was a lot more interesting.

It's possible to awkwardly force lore justifications into the game for why the aliens would be doing stuff like Terror Attacks and bombing the humans with UFOs in the "secret war" setting we originally have, but it gets very convoluted very quickly. I'd like to bring certain parts of that setting back into the game but large sections just won't work in a game with classic X-Com / Xenonauts 1 mechanics.

[Bobit]

The way the XCOMfiles evokes a secret war theme is to have mission-specific gear restrictions (can't carry a rifle on covert missions as it's not concealable), mission-specific soldier caps (pull up in a car with 2 agents), more terror-ish missions, enemies you would rather detain than kill (whether they be confused civilians or a rare Elder), some rare but very weird magical missions, and a slowly escalating war that can lead to 20+ endgame soldiers.

I don't know if any of this is suitable to Xenonauts' "realistic" theme. Which is part of the reason making a Xenonauts secret war never seemed like a great idea to me.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Bobit

[Chris]

57 minutes ago, Bobit said:

The way the XCOMfiles evokes a secret war theme is to have mission-specific gear restrictions (can't carry a rifle on covert missions as it's not concealable), mission-specific soldier caps (pull up in a car with 2 agents), more terror-ish missions, enemies you would rather detain than kill (whether they be confused civilians or a rare Elder), some rare but very weird magical missions, and a slowly escalating war that can lead to 20+ endgame soldiers.

I don't know if any of this is suitable to Xenonauts' "realistic" theme. Which is part of the reason making a Xenonauts secret war never seemed like a great idea to me.

I should probably take a look at that, I've played X-Piratez but not XcomFiles. As you say, though, I worry that those kind of limitations and slow start would turn off a lot of players who just want an X-Com experience where you have a team of military dudes who shoot aliens with increasingly powerful guns.

[ShadowAdmiral]

Hi. First of all thanks that you listen to the fan base. Xenonaits 2 seems to be a good project closer to classic x-Com than XCOM. 

The panic is for me a big issue as well. This panic reduction missions should be available through the whole game, not just the beginning. 

Also it would be nice if combat results influence panic as well. I miss the good old points screen from the end of the mission. Is it possible to bring both back? 

[doubleskulls]

On 1/25/2021 at 7:57 PM, Chris said:

I should probably take a look at that, I've played X-Piratez but not XcomFiles. As you say, though, I worry that those kind of limitations and slow start would turn off a lot of players who just want an X-Com experience where you have a team of military dudes who shoot aliens with increasingly powerful guns.

Maybe there is a balancing point where, rather than a more gradual escalation, we just have more mission diversity. So there could be, for example an 'abduct cleaner operative' mission which is covert, maybe with a smaller squad and limited equipment. IMO XCOM 1 & 2 did a lot to raise the bar in this area. Tactical battles are great and I think having more diversity in the challenge within them would be good. I believe I'm in a minority, but timed missions are much more exciting IMO.  

[Komandos]

On 1/19/2021 at 9:08 AM, Dren608 said:

Just some thoughts on trying to look at this from the perspective of the first time user or the gamer that wants to see a possibility of winning. Currently it seems impossible just doing the mathematics, we don't want that perception.

The problem with strategy in this game is that the player cannot predict the actions of aliens and use this knowledge to their advantage. There is only one way to predict the actions of aliens - to play this game at least once.

The aliens must follow some random strategy (plot) of behavior chosen by them from the many strategies (plots) of behavior available to them. The player's task is to guess this behavior strategy and build their game on the correct prediction of the aliens' next move.

It would not be bad if there were riddles in the game, having solved which, the player can predict the next step of the aliens.

 

I could think about it if someone is interested in the development of this topic.

 

[doubleskulls]

I think on the lower difficulty levels winning first time around is achievable. I think the biggest problem for newbies would be not researching and investing in air defence / bases / radar, and I think this could be better managed through, for example the Chief Scientist and Engineer making helpful suggestions - e.g. in month 2 saying 'we should really research Alenium Power, it will be vital to engaging UFOs' or the Chief Engineer saying 'we should upgrade to Laser Lances / build Phantoms', it will make a big difference to our ability to shoot down UFOs. Even then I suspect the lower difficulties are such you can recover from that. 

Edited August 11, 2023 by doubleskulls

[Dren608]

On 8/10/2023 at 2:29 PM, Komandos said:

The problem with strategy in this game is that the player cannot predict the actions of aliens and use this knowledge to their advantage. There is only one way to predict the actions of aliens - to play this game at least once.

The aliens must follow some random strategy (plot) of behavior chosen by them from the many strategies (plots) of behavior available to them. The player's task is to guess this behavior strategy and build their game on the correct prediction of the aliens' next move.

It would not be bad if there were riddles in the game, having solved which, the player can predict the next step of the aliens.

 

I could think about it if someone is interested in the development of this topic.

 

I like the idea, one of the things in the original X-COM was the unpredictability of the next alien mission. Under the hood they basically had each mission type available, They did some limitations like % chance of Base attacks being based on your activity, but basically the Game would "try" say abduction missions a couple of times, if they succeeded they kept doing them, once you stopped them 2-3 times in a row, it went back to the RMG (Random Mission generator). Where it was possible to generate the exact sane mission set. I had one game on Superhuman level that had 6 or 7 terror missions in a row, I beat each of them but it took a long time for the Random assigning code to pick something else. It was epic in feel and made it impossible to "game the system" as it wasn't really scripted except for a few things (there was always at least one Base Attack and At least one Alien Base building sequence). As time went on tougher alien mixes too. It made the game very re-playable because of the Chaotic nature of the mission selection. I would love something like that in X2. Yes you will have your "story missions" but let's randomize "when", maybe its relatively quickly like now, Maybe it starts coming into the game later. You might come to recognize the missions as a story line type, but having them pop up at different times keeps you guessing. Another thought is having random "mixes" of aliens on missions, this keeps the "oh another abduction mission" thought have a possible surprise. Instead of Secton/Psyons its Wairths/Mantids! It would go a long way to insure you want to play the game again - Win or lose, because of the Variety.