Night Vision

[Bayonet12]

Im pretty sure night vision was invented and used in combat in WW2. So why would Xenonauts be throwing flares at night?

I dont mind if you cannot code night vision into the game, but there must be a bonus for players who complete night battles. Easy fix would be to double the xp for that mission. That would motivate me to run a few night battles. Otherwise night vision is 100% stupid battle nerf. Even if I can see reapers easier, that's only one enemy and reapers are already easy to deal with.

[Chris]

6 hours ago, Bayonet12 said:

Im pretty sure night vision was invented and used in combat in WW2. So why would Xenonauts be throwing flares at night?

I dont mind if you cannot code night vision into the game, but there must be a bonus for players who complete night battles. Easy fix would be to double the xp for that mission. That would motivate me to run a few night battles. Otherwise night vision is 100% stupid battle nerf. Even if I can see reapers easier, that's only one enemy and reapers are already easy to deal with.

Because Xenonauts is a spiritual successor to X-Com and night missions with reduced vision and flares were a big part of X-Com, basically. It's easy enough to make night missions act like day missions (in fact it would have saved us a hell of a lot of effort not to do it) but it's a feature people expect from a relatively faithful modern successor to that game. If we remove too much of X-Com people may as well just play XCOM instead.

You're right that at the moment it's beneficial and preferable to fight a day mission in most circumstances, but that's the way it was in X-Com and Xenonauts 1 as well and most good players planned around that. In X2 we've changed it so it's actually advantageous to fight some species at night (although it's Wraiths rather than Reapers that glow in the dark) to improve that situation. I'm not sure a flat experience bonus to all stats would be warranted simply for fighting a night mission, but yeah, perhaps you could earn bonus soldier Bravery progress for fighting a mission at night as that would indeed make logical sense.

[EurekaSeven]

I understand the aim to recreate the flare feature, but there can still be space to introduce a restricted NVG for authentic purpose as well. At least, even for modern binocular NVGs, the tunnel of sight (or whatever it is called) is still too narrow, the operator have to scan the surroundings routinely as their sight angle is restricted than naked eye. 

Some one would purpose the fancy DEVGRU GPNV-18 NVGs as it has bigger angle, but it's not only expensive, but heavy, it would be painful to swing your head around with this thing on the helmet. Also, both NVG and infrared are electronics, which also means they can be disrupted or jammed.

Same restrictions can be imposed on present time infrared goggles. So well, before the Xenonauts can play with the night vision helmets, the present time technology is not perfect in night missions. It would be both authentic and logical if such feature is introduced. I'm also wondering, a dark missionmay be extra authentic if it has the greeny filter

[Bayonet12]

2 hours ago, EurekaSeven said:

I understand the aim to recreate the flare feature, but there can still be space to introduce a restricted NVG for authentic purpose as well. At least, even for modern binocular NVGs, the tunnel of sight (or whatever it is called) is still too narrow, the operator have to scan the surroundings routinely as their sight angle is restricted than naked eye. 

Some one would purpose the fancy DEVGRU GPNV-18 NVGs as it has bigger angle, but it's not only expensive, but heavy, it would be painful to swing your head around with this thing on the helmet. Also, both NVG and infrared are electronics, which also means they can be disrupted or jammed.

Same restrictions can be imposed on present time infrared goggles. So well, before the Xenonauts can play with the night vision helmets, the present time technology is not perfect in night missions. It would be both authentic and logical if such feature is introduced. I'm also wondering, a dark missionmay be extra authentic if it has the greeny filter

I agree. 

Before I talk about some details, I want to point out how new players would feel about doing night battles with flares. If you are wanting to make the game slightly more accessible for new players, then you must look at improving night battles.

When considering the implications of this theorized NV it be like having 50-60% normal vision range, which by no means is easy. NV in the games ive played have alot of pros and cons. Reduced range, reduced peripheral vision, lights/fires are blinding to look at etc. Playing with NV feels very haunting and creepy at times. Which is how I felt when playing Xenonauts for the first time when I walked around a corner and found these crazy aliens. For me Xenonauts can be very spooky since I play on hard difficulty and dont want my men to die. NV wouldnt ruin this experience, but improve it. You could also make it that some elite aliens cannot be seen with NV too.

I would urge a quick test run. Ask a coder to make a night battle but your vision is 50-60% of what it normally would be during a day battle, and see how that feels. Im confidant it wouldnt break the spirit of Xcom. It should feel like having slightly less vision of day battle without needing to use flares, while still being very challenging.

To be frank, if I was playing my X1 campaign with NV like we've pointed out, it would still be very risky and I would expect higher bravery xp at the end of it. This type of NV wouldnt be giving a game breaking advantage, it would just reduce the illogical lack of NV and tedious use of flares. 

[Alienkiller]

If I remember me correctly then it´s planed to give your Soldiers an upgrade in Night Missions with R & D. But not in the first 1/4 of the Game.

[Charon]

I think a general improvement would be to shift the focus of night missions away from being an assymetrical battle, and more being a limiting factor for both sides, with certain races gaining boni or mali for night missions + special equipment to balance out the human side of things, where carrying night vision can be cumbersome.

 

Doing night missions is a voluntary way of making the game harder currently, and there is no benefit to it. Adding to it that night missions are easily avoidable makes you question yourself why you should even do them.

Edited January 7, 2021 by Charon

[Alienkiller]

I like them, because they are realistic. And with R & D you can upgrade your Soldiers fighting like in Day. The first equipment you have for that are the throwable light-Sticks and very fast you get the the R & D MARS-Vehicle with its big searchlight for night Missions.

With more Research of Alien-Tech, Autopsies etc. it will be much easyer in the Game. Like Chris said already, the Wraiths are glowing in the Dark. And the Sebillians have the same Problems in night as your Soldiers.

We don´t have all doable R & D´s yet and some new things will come with the next Beta-Versions first. Maybe we will get an night Visor or an similar integrated advantage in the newer Soldier-Armors which we don´t know yet (not for the Cevlar-Armor, the better Warden-Armor [upgraded Cevlar-Armor] or the third Armor which is researchable).

From that I could test in the Betas with night Missions it is good ballanced between the Aliens and the Human-Defense-Forces. Like I said, more R & D is comming (like Interrogations etc.), because not everything is integrated yet, which make more ballance possible with Beta-Testing.

Edited January 7, 2021 by Alienkiller

[Bayonet12]

On 1/7/2021 at 1:30 AM, Chris said:

Because Xenonauts is a spiritual successor to X-Com and night missions with reduced vision and flares were a big part of X-Com, basically. It's easy enough to make night missions act like day missions (in fact it would have saved us a hell of a lot of effort not to do it) but it's a feature people expect from a relatively faithful modern successor to that game. If we remove too much of X-Com people may as well just play XCOM instead.

Was stress levels part of X-Com?

 

[EurekaSeven]

9 hours ago, Alienkiller said:

 

We don´t have all doable R & D´s yet and some new things will come with the next Beta-Versions first. Maybe we will get an night Visor or an similar integrated advantage in the newer Soldier-Armors which we don´t know yet (not for the Cevlar-Armor, the better Warden-Armor [upgraded Cevlar-Armor] or the third Armor which is researchable).

I know about the NV upgrade long time ago, I'm just saying that from a authentic prespective and considering what irl military do with NVGs, it seems a little bit out of place if an elite unit set in 2020 don't have a mandatory NVG in the first place and have to reverse the technology of aliens into advanced armour to do so, and even the MARS should be upgraded for NV capabilities instead of pre-intall a fancy thermal sight. It would be more plausible if the game was set in 1979 which NV technology were still primitive.

Also, if I remember right, the Warden Night vision helmet is a once-grab feature, you don't have any sorts of NV capability before, and suddenly got a perfect NV ability with no retrctions after. While i was saying about imposing restrictions onto early-game NVGs (or aka real-life counterparts), I'm saying that the NV technology in game can be presented with a more progressive way. You first have no budget or support so you cannot afford NVG and have to rely on flares and searchlights, then you acquire normal military grade NVGs with restricted angles and range, afterwards you would get some advanced goggles with thermals and longer range, but still with much restrcitons (like really heavy), and finally the Warden Helmet give you the perfect solution with unrestricted range and angles. That would make the night missions more tricky as from early to middle game, your soldier with current human technology although can overcome darkness, but the aliens can still outrun them (in the lore the Seballians are borned with night vision and thermal abilities), so the odds are still against the human. Such advantage from aliens can only be overcome after you get more advanced Warden armour.

[Bayonet12]

2 minutes ago, EurekaSeven said:

your soldier with current human technology although can overcome darkness, but the aliens can still outrun them (in the lore the Seballians are borned with night vision and thermal abilities), so the odds are still against the human. Such advantage from aliens can only be overcome after you get more advanced Warden armour.

Exactly. The start of the game is all about human tech vs aliens and slowly building your R & D to become stronger and ultimately finish the game. 
The idea of throwing flares while holding modern weapons is hilariously stupid, and one of the reasons why I treat night missions with utter contempt. Its such a joke throwing flares but then you have to waste all that extra time being extra careful without getting any bonuses for doing so. I only did a few night mission for the extra difficultly. Once I figured night missions were just a time sink having to be extra careful without any extra features, I never ran a night mission again.

[Alienkiller]

@EurekaSeven: The Game was in his first Versions in the End 70´s or beginning 80´s. But there were no Dark-Missions implemented. Now we are in the here and now. The MARS-Vehicle have an light, which make in his Field of Vision the Night to Day. If there Soldiers with it, they can fight about 60 to 70 % like in Day.

The Problem is, that if you would give the Soldier an heavy Night Vision and the Cevlar- [the Main-Protection from beginning], Warden- [Upgraded Cevlar] or the third [the first fully new Armor] (and the Things are heavy incl. today, that´s why mostly Pilots have it while flying at night) he / she couldn´t carry any important medium or heavy Weapons.

The Warden Armor is an Upgrade to the normal Cevlar-Armor with Alien-Alloys to give a little more Protection and elbow room without any other advantages. The first real new Armor is the second researchable with full Protection of Alien Alloys, but if I remember me correctly it have no electronics in it.

@Bayonet12: Yep, R & D of your Organisation is exactly the key. The other Soldiers of your founding States fight in Night Missions etc. and get massacreed with the highly human tech. In that case Xenonauts and the founding state Soldiers have only the Posibility to fight with older Tactics / Equipment: The MARS-Searchlight and throwable lights, until you have enough R & D to have useable Electronics for a functional Night Vision. You can fight the Night-Groundfights with Risk, I did that too to save Civilians. And that with Standard-Weapons and Upgraded Standard Weapons (Accelerated Versions).

@ all: Why do you think Xenonauts is using the X-25 Angel Interceptor and an older Transport-Plane as well as the special Researched MARS-Vehicle? The Answer is Easy: The high electronics we have are not useable against the Aliens like in the Archive listed. The Aliens can Jam or Destroy it. That´s why the Founding States lost many Soldiers, Fighters and other things against the Aliens. They count on you to find a Solution to integrate such Helpers again against the Alien-Threat.

 

[Bayonet12]

1 hour ago, Alienkiller said:

@ all: Why do you think Xenonauts is using the X-25 Angel Interceptor and an older Transport-Plane as well as the special Researched MARS-Vehicle? The Answer is Easy: The high electronics we have are not useable against the Aliens like in the Archive listed. The Aliens can Jam or Destroy it. That´s why the Founding States lost many Soldiers, Fighters and other things against the Aliens. They count on you to find a Solution to integrate such Helpers again against the Alien-Threat.

 

If that's the rational for not being able to use NV and other electronic devices, then that's cool. But it would need to be specifically highlighted to players before playing, and integrated into the core system of the game such as: anything that uses X technology cannot be used at all. I guess that would also limit which fighter jets can be used since the technology used in jets would be neutralized by alien tech.

 

[Alienkiller]

Exactly such Things are announced in the Archiv with the X-25 Entry as well as in an other Storyentry atm. Evtl. more such Explenations will come in more Story- and other Entrys.

[Chris]

On 1/7/2021 at 2:22 AM, Bayonet12 said:

When considering the implications of this theorized NV it be like having 50-60% normal vision range, which by no means is easy. NV in the games ive played have alot of pros and cons. Reduced range, reduced peripheral vision, lights/fires are blinding to look at etc. Playing with NV feels very haunting and creepy at times. Which is how I felt when playing Xenonauts for the first time when I walked around a corner and found these crazy aliens. For me Xenonauts can be very spooky since I play on hard difficulty and dont want my men to die. NV wouldnt ruin this experience, but improve it. You could also make it that some elite aliens cannot be seen with NV too.

I would urge a quick test run. Ask a coder to make a night battle but your vision is 50-60% of what it normally would be during a day battle, and see how that feels. Im confidant it wouldnt break the spirit of Xcom. It should feel like having slightly less vision of day battle without needing to use flares, while still being very challenging.

To be frank, if I was playing my X1 campaign with NV like we've pointed out, it would still be very risky and I would expect higher bravery xp at the end of it. This type of NV wouldnt be giving a game breaking advantage, it would just reduce the illogical lack of NV and tedious use of flares. 

Perhaps I've missed the point of what you're asking here, but this feature is already in both Xenonauts 1 and Xenonauts 2, right?

Soldiers can see half their normal view distance at night through passive night vision, but if a tile is illuminated by other means (a flare, fire, an environmental light) then soldiers can see up to their full view distance. If that feature wasn't in place then soldiers literally wouldn't be able to see even one tile in front of them unless they used a flare or were stood in a lit area.

[Bayonet12]

6 hours ago, Chris said:

Perhaps I've missed the point of what you're asking here, but this feature is already in both Xenonauts 1 and Xenonauts 2, right?

Soldiers can see half their normal view distance at night through passive night vision, but if a tile is illuminated by other means (a flare, fire, an environmental light) then soldiers can see up to their full view distance. If that feature wasn't in place then soldiers literally wouldn't be able to see even one tile in front of them unless they used a flare or were stood in a lit area.

How NV works is you have almost the same vision as daytime bit rougher around the edges such as slightly less range, less preficial vision, bright lights glow etc. So I guess I shouldnt have said 50-60%, but rather -10 or -20% of daytime vision.

9 hours ago, Alienkiller said:

Exactly such Things are announced in the Archiv with the X-25 Entry as well as in an other Storyentry atm. Evtl. more such Explenations will come in more Story- and other Entrys.

If alien tech can block advanced aircraft forcing us to use older transport, then with what technology are Xenonauts able to destroy alien aircraft?

[Alienkiller]

@Bayonet12: If you are a Beta-Tester or one of the lucky Guys from the Steamthing for X2 and read the Archives as well as Storytexts you know the answer to your Question.

Edited January 9, 2021 by Alienkiller

[some12u]

22 hours ago, Bayonet12 said:

How NV works is you have almost the same vision as daytime bit rougher around the edges such as slightly less range, less preficial vision, bright lights glow etc. So I guess I shouldnt have said 50-60%, but rather -10 or -20% of daytime vision.

If alien tech can block advanced aircraft forcing us to use older transport, then with what technology are Xenonauts able to destroy alien aircraft?

That's not how NV works at all, especially if you place the thematic tech level (looking how your starting rookies are equipped) at around desert storm or earlier. Not to mention the extreme accuracy depuffs if you want to go more realistic.

[Bayonet12]

On 1/9/2021 at 8:24 AM, Alienkiller said:

@Bayonet12: If you are a Beta-Tester or one of the lucky Guys from the Steamthing for X2 and read the Archives as well as Storytexts you know the answer to your Question.

lol you cant possibly expect me to be part of that limited club. Hence why im asking questions, because I would love to understand the games development direction to help improve it considering: how much I enjoyed the X1.

On 1/10/2021 at 7:05 AM, some12u said:

That's not how NV works at all, especially if you place the thematic tech level (looking how your starting rookies are equipped) at around desert storm or earlier. Not to mention the extreme accuracy depuffs if you want to go more realistic.

X2 isnt set in Desert Storm. Its set in a time when a crashed alien ship has been discovered and aware aliens are attacking the planet. A time when the cold war isnt over, which means: research into military equipment would have sky rocketed due to demand and access to alien technology, and not to mention threat of alien invasion. 

[EurekaSeven]

On 1/8/2021 at 9:26 PM, Alienkiller said:

@EurekaSeven: The Game was in his first Versions in the End 70´s or beginning 80´s. But there were no Dark-Missions implemented. Now we are in the here and now. The MARS-Vehicle have an light, which make in his Field of Vision the Night to Day. If there Soldiers with it, they can fight about 60 to 70 % like in Day.

The Problem is, that if you would give the Soldier an heavy Night Vision and the Cevlar- [the Main-Protection from beginning], Warden- [Upgraded Cevlar] or the third [the first fully new Armor] (and the Things are heavy incl. today, that´s why mostly Pilots have it while flying at night) he / she couldn´t carry any important medium or heavy Weapons.

The Warden Armor is an Upgrade to the normal Cevlar-Armor with Alien-Alloys to give a little more Protection and elbow room without any other advantages. The first real new Armor is the second researchable with full Protection of Alien Alloys, but if I remember me correctly it have no electronics in it.

@ all: Why do you think Xenonauts is using the X-25 Angel Interceptor and an older Transport-Plane as well as the special Researched MARS-Vehicle? The Answer is Easy: The high electronics we have are not useable against the Aliens like in the Archive listed. The Aliens can Jam or Destroy it. That´s why the Founding States lost many Soldiers, Fighters and other things against the Aliens. They count on you to find a Solution to integrate such Helpers again against the Alien-Threat.

 

I'm well aware of the feature and lore settings of both X1 and X2 so no lesson needed. However, the electronics things is something i did forgot. I would say if you keep the fry electronic things as an explanation for throwing flares, that's plausible, but it needs to be hinted in the related lore pages (like "Flares" or tutorials for night missions). Also, I'm still thinking that night mission scenarios worth the risk if all the odds are against human, but with little profit and gameplay additions to make it both fun and challenging.

[Alienkiller]

Yep EurekaSeven, there will come more Gameplayparts, Upgrades or so earlyer or later in the Development (like the Tutorials and so on). Don´t worry about that.

Edited January 15, 2021 by Alienkiller