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On 5/5/2020 at 10:59 AM, Max_Caine said:

I can't find the posts now, but I think the original scheme was that you'd have two weapon trees, energy-based weapons and kinetic-impact based weapons (hence the thermal and kinetic damage types currently in the game). You'd have the option to progress down one or both of the weapon trees, hence the early introduction of enemy MAG and then plasma weaponry. However, I suspect that has changed and the progression of weapon types is closer to X1. Based upon my experience of fiddling about with the data files, and having played the damn game since v1 I believe it is more likely now each weapon family will have it's own quirks and flaws and research is linear so you have to research weapon families in a particular order who will be, quirks and flaws notwithstanding, objctively better in the areas that count. 

Well its refreshing that they decided to keep the old system. One thing though, how annoying are these "flaws"? In the original game the only real flaw was less ammo, which wasn't that big of a deal and could be easily ignored. The laser weapon recharge mechanic on the other hand... My god is that annoying.

 

Is there any planned flaws for plasma and mag weapons?

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I guess you don't have the game, or you wouldn't ask that question. Plasma weapons ammo currently degenerates. As in, the power cell will slowly run out of shots whether or not you use the gun, meaning you need to carry more ammo with you. It's the reverse of the laser family. It makes things more interesting, seeing as the plasma family has currently the highest damage output of any of the weapon families. I would strongly advise people reading my posts in this thread to take everything I say with a share in a salt mine. It would be just a day's work (I know, I've done it) to completely revise the tech tree - the way the data is set out, it can be annoying to follow back all the threads but it's possible to make sweeping changes to the tech tree and weapon families within a relatively short period of time. It makes sense in terms of the game to have a linear progression - the way XCOM-a-like games are set up prefer a linear research progression model as opposed to a radial model used in 4X/grand strategy games such as stellaris, but that doesn't mean you couldn't have all the weapon families right from the start and the tech you pick up from UFOs refine crude applications of technology into something a bit more usable. 

 

EDIT: And now that sounds really interesting to me - I wonder if it could be carried off? 

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Then how about upgrade and add on to weapon system, like an upgrade to laser tree to recharge ammo every turn in cost of ammo count and weight? First phototype should have a lot draw back but improve over time with alien tech.

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The game is one step ahead of you. Each weapon family has a mark 2 version on the tech tree. At the moment, the mark 2 upgrade simply upgrades damage, but you could do any number of things with it. However, if you look at the April update, there's a very interesting line from it:

Quote

Fixed the issue where weapons in backpack didn't properly contain ammo (which also lays the foundations for modular weapons)

DUN DUN DUN!!!!!!!!!!!

Now, if that goes ahead then you have to ask just how necessary an overall mk 2 upgrade would be. If I can slap parts on a gun, then I can overcome the inherant flaws of that weapon family.

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It doesn't fundametally change much. Weather you research a weapon upgrade/addon like a stabilizer/silencer/scope or whatevr, you build a new gun. It is still new research and new production.

 

The difference is aplicability. While a completely new gun would be self-contained, a scope might be fitted on different guns.

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So to get your point straight all of these "quirks" like the laser not being reloaded or the plasma losing charge can be modded out EASILY right?

Also you mentioned plasma has the highest DPS. Did MAG weapons get removed?

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I'm going to preface what I say with "at the moment", because the game isn't out of beta yet, let alone EA, so things can change. However, to answer to your question, @Comrade, the answer is yes. I can take that one step further - if all you wanted the weapon tiers to be is linear ++damage, thats entirely possible to do as well. Gauss is there, but I believe Chris gave plasma the highest raw damage as a conterbalance to their quirk - the power cell draining each turn. 

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The tech tree is far from final or balanced at the moment, but this thread illustrates pretty well how difficult it is to please everyone!

The plan is to have each tier of weapons be better than the last in *most* situations, and for each tier of weapons to have unique quirks like the recharging lasers. But that stuff isn't really playtested yet, and it's a difficult balancing act to decide just how much better each tier of weapons should be from the last. I don't know exactly where I stand yet.

Note the MAG weapons are now called Gauss weapons, and have switched places with the Plasma weapons in the tier structure. So it now goes Ballistics >> Lasers >> Gauss >> Plasma. This is relevant because some aliens have resistances to particular types of damage, so in some circumstances if you know you're facing a particular race you may want to downgrade your soldiers to a lower tier of weapons.

Yes, all the properties of weapons / armour / aliens / the research tree can be modded easily.

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On 4/30/2020 at 1:24 AM, Lord Blade said:

I'd definitely like to see more "side-grades" and strategic options with weapons as opposed to simply straight up damage increases. So while getting new tech would let you do more damage, it would be nice to see more options open up along with it. So different ammo types, or specialized weapons and such.

That would be nice ! A few ideas :

  • Tacer rounds for combat at night that would leave "ray" of light instead of the X1 splash of light of the flares.
  • Smoke grenade upgrade that block line of sight completely.
  • Supressing 'screaming' rounds that could scare the non mecanical / untrained aliens with fewer shoots, but could not realy hurt them, especialy if armored.
  • Different burst for you weapons, 5 rounds instead of 3 for example, or lock your weapon in a certain kind of stance that eat more ammo, cost less TU per shoot but is less effective with each individual shoot.

By the way, I never got far in my X2 runs for the moment, is the incapacitating gaz grenade in the game ? Is it planned ?

On 5/1/2020 at 5:24 PM, TrashMan said:

Why is that annoying?

It's like complaining you have to carry an AT missile to kill a tank. 

I agree with you. In X1 I often had a soldier that was just "the artificer". He/she had C4. A lot of it. A pistol, also, but seldom used it.

Edited by Comte Pseudonyme
Messed up initial post.

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On 5/6/2020 at 3:58 AM, TrashMan said:

BOOOOO. Hiss, hisss!

 

I can kinda accept weapon families being researched in an order, but only if it's not the research end, but rather the start of research. That is to say, you unlock ballistic, then lasers, then plasma, but as you move on, more research in ballistic and lasers is unlocked. Basically, new application of newly mastered tech on already existing weapons.

 

Most people seem to have a very limited thinking of "high-tech sounding and looking = better than low-tech sounding and looking", which has no connection to reality whatsoever. A lot of high-tech things are horribly inefficient, expensive and can have some serious downsides that are way too often ignored.

I find it funny that 40K of all settings tends to be a lot more realisitc in many aspects despite it's over-the-top nature compared to some settings that are supposedly more grounded. Plasma guns in that setting are powerful, but can overheat and explode in your face and have low rate of fire, which is why you want mixed weapons in a squad.

Firm agreement here. Rather than being linear there should be parallel lines of development which occasionally cross over.

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The Game is already build up that you have to upgrade the existing ballistic Weapons first. Some Time later you get the First Lasers which are self-Reloading, but with not much shoots per Playerround. Upgraded Lasers you get too, that we know already and could test it for the Public. The best Weapons are Plasma, but there could be human magnetic Ballistic Weapons too.

But the Game isn´t finished yet and there can be some more refits, changes and similar we Betas don´t know too.

Edited by Alienkiller

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