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Comrade

Weapon Asymetry

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Apart from the current state of the laser guns that have a small ass ammo pool and slowly regen rather than reload all at once (Very annoying by the way) is there plans further on to make the weapons more asymmetrical? One of my favorite features of the original game was that unlike the original XCOM, a new generation of weapons was objectively better than the previous version. Unlike in original XCOM, you could safely upgrade all your equipment to the latest version without worrying about some enemies being more resistant to the new weapon, or the new weapon having some annoying gimmick.

I'd also like some community comments about this feature. Maybe I'm in the minority for hating asymmetrical weapon upgrades, or maybe not.

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There's room for both weapon asymmetry and for clear paths of progression. I have spent months messing around with the data and there are all sorts of things you can do. Incidently, if you're fed up with a slow recharge, try this mod for lasers: I XCOM 1994'd them so while they have small cell sizes, they auto regen all their ammo at the start of every turn. When you no longer have to carry ammo, it makes for a subtle but interesting change in the way you play the game. infiniterecharge.zip  EDIT: forogot to mention, don't forget to back up your files before trying anything!

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Is there any plans to make some enemies more vulnerable to certain weapon types? One of my most hated features of the original XCOM was the fact that they made the sectopods more vulnerable to lasers so that even in the late game there was a strong motive to use an outdated weapon.

As always though, as long as this game is easy to mod, any sort of annoying features should be easy enough to obliterate.

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There was, and there still is the possibility. There are a variety of damage types - kinetic, shock, thermal, chemical, gas and psionic and currently you can have resistance types for all damage types a-la X1. Therefore,  it's entirely possible for an enemy type to be more resistant to one damage type than another. It's also possible to build this into weapon progression. Take, for example, Androns (because I know you love those tall bois). You could give Androns a resistance to kinetic weapons but not thermal weapons so you spur players on down the natural progression of lasers and plasma. it all depends, but I definitely see the possiblity for top tier energy-based and top-tier kinetic-based proving useful. I suspect that the original idea was that you carry a mix of equivalent-tier weapons into a fight, balancing the pros against the cons of each weapon tier. 

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Posted (edited)

But not to strong. I like the Idea of The new XCOM Series, where some Aliens are much more damageable from Close Combat Weapons (more Humanoid ones) and the robotics / mechanicals more from EMP-Waepons [that EMP-Feature was firstly integrated in UFO: ET] (like the Stun-Baton and later better ones).

The damage Potential should be as easy it is now. Gas, Poison, Fire and other natural Damages are very dangerous to all (robotic / mechanical / biological). The damage Potential from the normal Weapons (kinetic, energy, stun etc.) should be easy too and belongs only on the Armor the soldier / Alien is wearing.

Means: Robots / Mechs are harder to destroy than an Alien / Human Soldier without Armor.
examples:

1. Your Soldiers are wearing only the Standard-Suit they are light defended against kinetic, but not against Plasma, Laser etc.

2. you Upgrade your Solders with the Kevlar-Defense you get a boost in kinetic Defense and a light Defense against Laser, Plasma and Explosives, but you are still susceptible against everything else.

3. the Same Procedere with the Aliens, but they have already an advantage against the Humans with Armors and Suites.

4. You can upgrade your Armors / Suites with More Modules (in Progress)

5. The same for Human Weapons (like XCom / XCom2 Modules)

That’s the easygoing way to make the Game faster Early Access ready to end the Discussions about Early Access and Full Public as a Main-Game to earn Money for Refits in the DLC‘s.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Alienkiller

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I'm actually the dead opposite to the OP, I generally don't like it that all weapons of a previous generation become completely useless once you have a new tech. and tend to really like systems that allow players to exploit specific weaknesses in the type of armor an opponent uses.

from my perspective it having a weakness system attempts to avoid the lategame problem that every squad is equipped with 1 weapon...because "its the best", even though in most tactical games a meta will develop anyway. 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Alienkiller said:

But not to strong. I like the Idea of The new XCOM Series, where some Aliens are much more damageable from Close Combat Weapons (more Humanoid ones) and the robotics / mechanicals more from EMP-Waepons [that EMP-Feature was firstly integrated in UFO: ET] (like the Stun-Baton and later better ones).

The damage Potential should be as easy it is now. Gas, Poison, Fire and other natural Damages are very dangerous to all (robotic / mechanical / biological). The damage Potential from the normal Weapons (kinetic, energy, stun etc.) should be easy too and belongs only on the Armor the soldier / Alien is wearing.

Means: Robots / Mechs are harder to destroy than an Alien / Human Soldier without Armor.
examples:

1. Your Soldiers are wearing only the Standard-Suit they are light defended against kinetic, but not against Plasma, Laser etc.

2. you Upgrade your Solders with the Kevlar-Defense you get a boost in kinetic Defense and a light Defense against Laser, Plasma and Explosives, but you are still susceptible against everything else.

3. the Same Procedere with the Aliens, but they have already an advantage against the Humans with Armors and Suites.

4. You can upgrade your Armors / Suites with More Modules (in Progress)

5. The same for Human Weapons (like XCom / XCom2 Modules) 

That’s the easygoing way to make the Game faster Early Access ready to end the Discussions about Early Access and Full Public as a Main-Game to earn Money for Refits in the DLC‘s.

That´s the good old system from Xenonatus 1. And with much more potential. That´s why the new XCOM-Series is so popular, because they use the Examples. I have won in XCOM2 the fight in T´Leth (Final Mission) only with Magnet- and Laser Weapons (the last ones are a Modification for XCOM2). And in the big DLC WotC you can win the Battles with Magnet- and Coil-Weapons (the last ones are like the Lasers a Modification for XCOM2), because this new XCOM2 is much harder to win.

But the best Indicator for such Examples will be the new XCOM: Chimera Squad this Friday and End of May the new UFO2: Extraterestials.

That´s only Examples how good Modified Armors / Suites and Human-Tech-Weapons can be used to win the Game. And yes, I remember myself back to the Original X-Com: Enemy Unknown, where an Alien were very hard to kill with conventional Human Weapons and Alien-Plasma-Weapons. Only Lasers were very effective against it. But that were surely a big Bug, which were overseen from the Developers, like so many ones in the old X-Com-Series. Most of them belongs to unused Codelines, which were used in the Demo-Versions, but not in the official Game.

Edited by Alienkiller

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On ‎4‎/‎19‎/‎2020 at 9:09 PM, Comrade said:

Apart from the current state of the laser guns that have a small ass ammo pool and slowly regen rather than reload all at once (Very annoying by the way) is there plans further on to make the weapons more asymmetrical? One of my favorite features of the original game was that unlike the original XCOM, a new generation of weapons was objectively better than the previous version. Unlike in original XCOM, you could safely upgrade all your equipment to the latest version without worrying about some enemies being more resistant to the new weapon, or the new weapon having some annoying gimmick.

I'd also like some community comments about this feature. Maybe I'm in the minority for hating asymmetrical weapon upgrades, or maybe not.

Wait, you WANT a static, linear progression?

That would make you and me mortal enemies.

I hate...HATE that concept with an intensity of a million burning suns. It's dull, soulless, boring, uninspired, brainless.

Every type and tier is the same, just +1 with different graphics. It's so lazy it's an immediate turnoff for me.

 

Different weapons families should behave differently (but that's not to say you can't have upgrades within a family)

 

So plasma guns (short range, slow to fire, no plasma snipers, can actually set you on fire) would behave different from lasers (supper accurate, no shotguns, damage fallof with distance?) would behave different from conventional ballistics (high RoF, eats ammo), etc..

But you can upgrade a weapon family. The early, bulky plasma guns could be upgraded to more refined ones with overall better performance, then to high-grade ones (that can maybe go around some limitations?) 

So you have variety, with different weapon types exceeding in certain roles, with some overlap (the handgun/rifle role all would share); and you have linear progression. And it all makes sense and fill up the research tree nicely.

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And since we are on the topic of weapon asymetry and weapons, what weapons would you even want to see in the game?

 

LASER FAMILY.

- pulse lasers: your typical 40K lasgun or star wars blaster in visual looks. Releases a lot of energy in short pulses, delivering a lot damage to the target. Works like a normal rifle in that regard. Can overheat. Small damage falloff with distance?

- continous lasers: a real beam weapon. Functions a bit differently in that it does NOT miss. However, the damage you do is equal to the hit chance. So, for a 100 dmg C-Laser, with a 69% chance to hit you'd do 69 damage (at optimal range). This basically represents your ability to keep the beam on target as it moves and hides in cover.

 

 

BALLISTICS:

- conventional/basic: starter guns. Lots of dakka, can be upgraded and can use different ammo types.

- ETC (electrothermalchemical) guns: using more advanced propellant ignition systems (plasma spark) and propellant, a more reliable rate of fire and greater muzzle velocity (up to 4km/s) can be achieved. This is actually a real thing (look it up). They are like more practical railguns, that don't suffer from the insane energy requirements and RoF issues, but don't have quite the same oomph. Also, they can use different ammo types. Pretty much conventional guns on steroids.

- railgun: simplest implementation of electromagnetically propelled weapons, by simply putting a metal spike between rails and inducing a magnetic current. The vibration and bending of the rails is an issue, causing the weapon to be less accurate with each shot and the rails to degrade fast and need replacement. In practical terms, that would mean that a railgun ammo clip would come with spare rails, making it heavy.

- coilgun: projectile accelerated trough a series of ring that have to be charged in a precise sequence with milisecond precision. Requires a lot more electronics (making it more sensitive) and more capacitors, but the rings don't bend or wobble, making it more accurate and capable of far more shots before replacements are needed.

Both the railgun and coilgun suffer from Rate of Fire issues.

 

 

OTHER:

- flamethrowers: self-explanatory. Sets things that can be set on fire on fire.

- Plasma thrower: huge quantities of plasma. VERY short range. Sets things that can't be set on fire on fire.

- grenade launchers

- missile launchers

- acid guns?

- sonic weapons? I guess thermobaric would count.

 

For POWER ARMOR:

- heavy cannons: as in, actual heavy cannon, not a machingun. Short range, slow fire, BIG round, brutal punch. Like Hellcannon from Phoenix Point.

- HMGs.. like 50 cals. Basically  the standard Predator gun in Xenounauts 1

- Gattling guns. Good old painless. Say goodbye to your ammo and everything in front of you that isn't behind heavy armor. Supplying this with enough ammo would be the biggest problem. ETC gattling gun? Now THAT is a scary thought.

- shoulder mounted mini-missile/grenade launcher?

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Yeah the thing I hate with that is that even in late game you would be using tech from a previous tech tier. Unlocking a new tier in the Xenonauts 1 was always a massive relief because it meant you could safely upgrade without worrying about the new equipment or weapon having a lot of quirks. They even specifically had a lore reason that they made new tech similar so your soldier would still be familliar with it. The lasers are a perfect example of a weapon that sucks ass despite doing more damage simply because of how the ammo works. Also if they straight up remove types of weapons or make the newer tiers "special" like with the plasma guns you mentioned, that would be annoying AF to deal with.

 

You have to understand, you arent supposed to pick and choose which weapons you use, you unlock them in a tier. If the later tier weapon isn't almost guaranteed to be be better than the first tier, whats the point of unlocking it?

Its like in the original XCOM where a lot of people would just straight up not upgrade to plasma because laser was lower tier and BETTER.

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I am supposed to pick and choose.

Low-tech isn't bad tech necessarily. If I whack you on the head with a big hammer, no high-tech armor in the world will save you from a concussion.

You speak as if refinement doesn't exist. If I make an unobtanium bullet for a ballistic rifle, isn't that "new" tech? Or it still a regular rifle and therefore "uncool"?

Lasers aren't inherently superior to bullets in every way, you have a very binary, game-y mentality of "types=tiers".

 

Why not Ballistic 1 -> Ballistic 2 -> Ballistic 3, Laser 1-> Laser 2, Plasma 1 -> Plasma 2, etc?

Increasing in lethality with more refined weapons, but different pros and cons. Why do you want to REMOVE all choice in a game that's about planning and choices?

 

In the specific example you mentioned, THAT laser isn't supposed to be used like a spray-and-pray machinegun. (or it just need a balance pass)

It is logisticaly a good weapon in that you can stay in the field without returning to base and not worry about ammo, basically allowing continous deployments. Nor does it tie your fabrication shops with ammo production. It's not good in prolonged assaults against multiple opponents. As long as you fight in theatres where you don't expect you will be draining it's energy store, it's good.

 

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Posted (edited)

The only good part of making weapons completely obsolete is that the lategame will play very differently from the early. Restricting player choice is actually pretty important, otherwise players will choose to play the same way every time, because that's how you win. In XCOM usually this means putting one of every class / weapon on the battlefield, very boring. There's a balance to be had between making all strategies viable and forcing the player to pick a strategy actually results in small-scale tactical diversity. Imo all XCOM-likes have leaned too far towards forcing the player, but it is possible to lean too far the other way.

Edited by Bobit

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3 hours ago, Bobit said:

The only good part of making weapons completely obsolete is that the lategame will play very differently from the early. Restricting player choice is actually pretty important, otherwise players will choose to play the same way every time, because that's how you win. In XCOM usually this means putting one of every class / weapon on the battlefield, very boring. There's a balance to be had between making all strategies viable and forcing the player to pick a strategy actually results in small-scale tactical diversity. Imo all XCOM-likes have leaned too far towards forcing the player, but it is possible to lean too far the other way.

How is it playing differently? You replace a 10 damage weapon with a 20 damage weapon. There's no change in playstyle at all and there is no choice to make.

It doesn't play any differently at all.

As for the bolded part, it is completely the opposite of what you claim, as it restricts the player even more.

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Yeah I think I have to agree with @TrashMan here, one of the biggest fallback of the first Xenonauts was that it took away the asymmetrical nature of the original UFO defense which increased that game’s replayability tremendously. The first Xenonauts weapon progression was entirely number-based and wasn’t interesting at all. I basically was selling all old weapons without looking back every time I got a new weapon done. Making gameplay restrictive and disallowed any tactical maneuverability of the player.

Talking about weapon variety, I think the best way is not only making multiple types of Xenonauts weapons but more strange weapons for the aliens as well. Making it clear that the weapons we made are still based on the same principles as theirs but in a lot of ways very different. We still use alien alloys, alenium and their electrical circuits but in entirely different ways. For instance their beam weapon can be a microwave beam that can shoot through walls and covers but very short ranged compared to Xenonauts laser beams. Or instead of our usage of plasma as ammunition and explosives, they use it like a high powered flamethrower. Maybe rather than using the energy capacitor for mag weapons, they use it like an electric arc gun, shooting chain lightning that can hit multiple targets.

On 4/23/2020 at 5:28 PM, TrashMan said:

what weapons would you even want to see in the game?

I want to see different variations of the same weapon type like you suggested but making them entirely based on what faction you work for to gain them.

- BALISTIC 2 Straight upgrade from regular Cold War weapons

US variant: Caseless ETC guns. Way more accurate but low ammo capacity and more APs to aim.

Soviet variant: Gyrojet guns. The farther the enemy, the more damage it does (the gyrojet sniper can’t even fire at close range). Huge ammo capacity, big damage but lower accuracy. Basically the 40k bolter.

- LASER more effective for mechanical enemies 

US variant: Pulse laser. But rather than using more APs to aim, it’s a power setting for the shot. The sniper version is very powerful.

Soviet variant: Dune’s las gun cutting beams. The carbine version is just the 40k melta that can blow away doors (and anything behind it).

- PLASMA More effective to biological enemies 

US variant: More easily controlled. Actually shoot bullets with plasma charges. Like a tiny version of the plasma missiles.

Soviet variant: Shoot real plasma bolts. Much more powerful but can overheat and inaccurate. Large blast radius.

- MAGNETIC

US variant: Rail gun for snipers and coil gun for the assault rifle and carbine which shoot hyper velocity flechettes. Huge rate of fire, easy to reload. Higher damage and armor penetration and previous weapons.

Soviet variant: Creates a field that rip apart armor and flesh in the molecular level. Huge APs cost each turn but can kill anything in one to two shots.

- NONLETHAL

Still the knockout gas, shock batons but now with higher tier weapons like tasers and neurolizers which can take control of civilians or stun aliens for one turn.

- FLAMETHROWER 

US variant: fuel-based. Upgrade from regular napalm to alenium-laced gel that explodes after one turn to nanobot goo.

Soviet variant:Thermobaric shmel. Later can be upgraded to be able to penetrate armor and kill robotic enemies.

- ROCKET LAUNCHER at first still based on ammunition’s but later can get factional versions

US version: Swarm missiles

Soviet version: Advanced guided missiles. Can target anything within range and a vision lock from even other soldiers.

- OTHER Singularity cannon or teleport gun (literally teleports bombs into target, going through all armor).

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Posted (edited)

Trashman, what I meant is if the new tier weapons are different, but also objectively better, then the lategame is different from the early game. Same goes for enemies. You can see this in X-Division's phases for example. Phase 2 players very differently because its weapons are very  differently. But you only pick phase 2 weapons because they're objectively better.

Preventing players from picking exactly what they want is sometimes important. Making certain things OP is one way of doing that, then you force the players to use mainly that thing, without removing other content. CCGs do this a lot. The better way to do it is making things actually balanced, or sufficiently randomized, so that you have diversity and every thing plays out well. But in some environments, like CCGs, that's not possible, so yeah settle for a more controlled experience. I don't think that's actually the reason for weapon tiers though. They're not trying to guide the player, just make things different on different phases.

Edited by Bobit

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As long as any asymetry can be easily modded away, I'll be fine.

That "asymmetry" you mentioned from the first XCOM wasn't "tactical" for me. It was just extremely annoying to deal with.

It lead to laser weapons being something you researched and then kept using into the late game because plasma sucked ass against sectopods.

Lasers were only good against sectopods and nothing else, so you had one soldier carrying around a laser into the endgame that could only kill sectopods and nothing else.

Very annoying and I would HATE for that to happen to Xenonauts 2.

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Well, unless Chris changes his mind (and he has before, so he could do it again), there is the framework present to make certain kinds of weapon asymmetry present. I expect that there are going to be aliens who are more resistant to a damage type (as opposed to a weapon family). For example, I would imagine that Androns, Gun Drones and any other kind of bot will be less resistant to thermal damage than kinetic, because that helps push players towards the laser, plasma and EMP families and away from the basic ballistic family. But hey, it is easy to mod that all away and just make each weapon family ++damage. When the game's close to release, I'll probably go over the files and do that for you. 

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I'd definitely like to see more "side-grades" and strategic options with weapons as opposed to simply straight up damage increases. So while getting new tech would let you do more damage, it would be nice to see more options open up along with it. So different ammo types, or specialized weapons and such.

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On 4/29/2020 at 9:24 PM, Comrade said:

As long as any asymetry can be easily modded away, I'll be fine.

That "asymmetry" you mentioned from the first XCOM wasn't "tactical" for me. It was just extremely annoying to deal with.

It lead to laser weapons being something you researched and then kept using into the late game because plasma sucked ass against sectopods.

Lasers were only good against sectopods and nothing else, so you had one soldier carrying around a laser into the endgame that could only kill sectopods and nothing else.

Very annoying and I would HATE for that to happen to Xenonauts 2.

Why is that annoying?

It's like complaining you have to carry an AT missile to kill a tank.

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On 4/29/2020 at 9:45 PM, Max_Caine said:

 For example, I would imagine that Androns, Gun Drones and any other kind of bot will be less resistant to thermal damage than kinetic, because that helps push players towards the laser, plasma and EMP families and away from the basic ballistic family. But hey, it is easy to mod that all away and just make each weapon family ++damage. When the game's close to release, I'll probably go over the files and do that for you. 

Why do some many devs hate the ballistic family?

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Because its primitive tech and you're supposed to steal tech from the aliens, not just keep using Earth tech the entire game

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X1 did circle the tech back round to kinetics, with the rail gun type weapons. FWIW I put my vote in with the non-linear progression in weapon types (it just feels more interesting), but I think the discussion broaches a bigger issue that keeps coming up in the forums: player choice. When is it meaningful, when is it fun. I think if we can get a sophisticated perspective on what choice actually improves the game, then all these discussions will be better framed.

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I can't find the posts now, but I think the original scheme was that you'd have two weapon trees, energy-based weapons and kinetic-impact based weapons (hence the thermal and kinetic damage types currently in the game). You'd have the option to progress down one or both of the weapon trees, hence the early introduction of enemy MAG and then plasma weaponry. However, I suspect that has changed and the progression of weapon types is closer to X1. Based upon my experience of fiddling about with the data files, and having played the damn game since v1 I believe it is more likely now each weapon family will have it's own quirks and flaws and research is linear so you have to research weapon families in a particular order who will be, quirks and flaws notwithstanding, objctively better in the areas that count. 

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13 hours ago, Max_Caine said:

I can't find the posts now, but I think the original scheme was that you'd have two weapon trees, energy-based weapons and kinetic-impact based weapons (hence the thermal and kinetic damage types currently in the game). You'd have the option to progress down one or both of the weapon trees, hence the early introduction of enemy MAG and then plasma weaponry. However, I suspect that has changed and the progression of weapon types is closer to X1. Based upon my experience of fiddling about with the data files, and having played the damn game since v1 I believe it is more likely now each weapon family will have it's own quirks and flaws and research is linear so you have to research weapon families in a particular order who will be, quirks and flaws notwithstanding, objctively better in the areas that count.  

BOOOOO. Hiss, hisss!

 

I can kinda accept weapon families being researched in an order, but only if it's not the research end, but rather the start of research. That is to say, you unlock ballistic, then lasers, then plasma, but as you move on, more research in ballistic and lasers is unlocked. Basically, new application of newly mastered tech on already existing weapons.

 

Most people seem to have a very limited thinking of "high-tech sounding and looking = better than low-tech sounding and looking", which has no connection to reality whatsoever. A lot of high-tech things are horribly inefficient, expensive and can have some serious downsides that are way too often ignored.

I find it funny that 40K of all settings tends to be a lot more realisitc in many aspects despite it's over-the-top nature compared to some settings that are supposedly more grounded. Plasma guns in that setting are powerful, but can overheat and explode in your face and have low rate of fire, which is why you want mixed weapons in a squad.

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