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Proposed Suppression Model


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Which makes kinda sense. If 12 guys with machine guns rush at me firing wildly, I'd probably get down.

As long as Burst and Single fires can have separate values it's pretty good. I can see the binary system being good for gameplay and transparency, but a more complicated system wouldn't hurt.

I'm just glad we're getting it :D

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Does it make sense?

If someone fires at you but the rounds go nowhere near you would that have the same effect as they did on the person who was kneeling behind the barrel they hit?

With this system they would suppress you and have no effect on him at all.

My counter proposal would be:

Adding two values to ammunition would allow them to work in the way discussed before.

Ammunition can already have a damage amount and a damage radius.

All ammunition has a stat named suppression damage and one named suppression radius added in addition to its current damage setting.

This would then mean that every bullet fired would have an invisible explosion on impact that would do suppression damage (not health damage) to anyone in an area around it.

This system makes shots suppress the people who are hit or almost hit, not just the one you were intending to fire at.

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Effects:

  • Once a unit hits 0 Suppression score, it immediately loses any Aps reserved for reaction fire.

  • In the following turn, it will have its Aps reduced to 50% of the normal value.

  • If capable, the unit will immediately crouch (this does not cost Aps).

  • A “suppressed” icon will appear above the unit’s head.

I think this works really well. It's simple and should be easy to program, and with the radius you'll also be able to suppress targets without actually seeing them (example - you suspect there's an alien in a building, so you fire into that building a bunch before you storm it).

With suppression mechanics in place, you can now turn MG and other burst accuracy way down - let 'em spray and pray for suppression, mainly, unless you're at short range.

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I think the confusion is from the suppression of an enemy not actually being related to the bullets that are suppressing them.

Reading the OP again it sounds like the act of clicking fire on an enemy will make that enemy suppressed.

It doesn't have anything to do with shooting them you just have to hold a weapon and click the fire button.

That clears up why you would centre the effect on the targeted enemy.

You can't have the bullets landing points used because they are not even taken into the calculation.

Give all your rookies machine guns and fire on everything, it will make them suppressed even if you have no chance of hitting or hurting them.

That's an option, but you'll eventually run out of ammo, and each soldier you bring that's dedicated to doing that isn't storming into buildings and killing aliens.

Plus, with all that machinegun fire going on, you're going to need to be extremely careful with your own troops to avoid having them hit by friendly fire.

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That's an option, but you'll eventually run out of ammo, and each soldier you bring that's dedicated to doing that isn't storming into buildings and killing aliens.

Plus, with all that machinegun fire going on, you're going to need to be extremely careful with your own troops to avoid having them hit by friendly fire.

It doesn't matter what weapon you use really, the machine gun will just be the best option for everyone.

Your rookies don't even have to hit anything with the proposed suppression mechanic.

As long as they intend to fire at someone they will be suppressing that target.

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So Gauddlike, if I understand you correctly, you are concerned that a shooting action which misses, that doesn't hit anywhere near the intended target ("anywhere near" being a rather subjective value) still suppresses the intended target regardless. You want the "point of suppression" to be from "point of weapon impact", not "intended target". You feel the best way to determine "point of impact" from a coding perspective is to give suppression values to ammunition rather than the weapon itself. This is because... why? Why, from a coding perspective is giving the suppression value to the ammunition to determine "point of impact" superior to giving it to the weapon?

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Btw could it be coded (or modded) so that shots that hit doesn't cause suppression? I know that's not realistic but maybe damage and suppression could in some cases be a bit too powerful? I think it would be interesting if we were able to explore the difference.

It doesn't matter what weapon you use really, the machine gun will just be the best option for everyone.

Your rookies don't even have to hit anything with the proposed suppression mechanic.

As long as they intend to fire at someone they will be suppressing that target.

I don't get it. What would be the point or tactical advantage of suppressing aliens if you can't hit them? They can still fire back while suppressed, jut not as much as if they weren't. In your example the aliens would kill off the rookies without any significant problem, wouldn't they?

Edited by Gorlom
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It doesn't matter what weapon you use really, the machine gun will just be the best option for everyone.

Your rookies don't even have to hit anything with the proposed suppression mechanic.

As long as they intend to fire at someone they will be suppressing that target.

Sure, but suppression != dead. Without someone to move in and exploit suppression, it becomes useless - and the MGs and other high-suppression weapons need to be balanced so that they aren't effective weapons on the move (options there: really high TUs for use, or really low accuracy values, or perhaps even changing accuracy values for soldiers who move vs. soldiers who remain still, which would be a nice addition to the game in general.)

Maybe your complaint is that it always works? Perhaps the 'suppression damage' done could be a variable range by weapon instead of a static numeric effect, so sometimes you'll get it and sometimes you won't.

Edited by Comassion
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Btw could it be coded (or modded) so that shots that hit doesn't cause suppression? I know that's not realistic but maybe damage and suppression could in some cases be a bit too powerful? I think it would be interesting if we were able to explore the difference.

If anything, shots that hit should cause MORE suppression. Being wounded is even less fun than being shot at.

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If anything, shots that hit should cause MORE suppression. Being wounded is even less fun than being shot at.

I know, I already pointed out that it wasn't realistic. But in this case I say screw realism. I'm thinking from a gameplay perspective.

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Wow, posting up a game mechanic seems to immediately summon you from the ether, Gazz!

What did you expect when laying out the Gazz bait?

Yes, it's a binary system, but then it's obvious when it takes effect so I don't see that being an issue. Particularly as you don't know whether the alien has an APs for reaction fire left anyway.

If you don't show the player when a enemy is "fully" suppressed then it's an obscure system that works... occasionally.

As a result you have to throw so many bullets at the target "just to make sure" that you might as well kill it with aimed shots or grenades.

That's just a boring battle of material. Not a dynamic system that rewards fast-moving combat - rather the opposite.

The whole point of suppression is to combine movement and fire. It needs to be fast-paced and it needs to not require several turns of piling on suppression points until you can move in with a small advantage.

Besides, even if you did manage to suppress an alien with a rookie with a pistol, it can still use its 50% APs to shoot you. It's not an "I win" button.

They can do that during their turn. That's okay.

Suppression is supposed to be more dynamic so you suppress aliens while advancing. That would happen in your turn where suppression nixed it's reserved AP - while your buddies are firing to make the alien keep it's sensory appendages down.

I would also suggest letting suppression regen to full within 2-3 turns instead of 4.

Make it a rather short-lived "debuff" that can be "applied" reasonably quickly but doesn't carry over all that much.

If you stop suppressing an enemy for a turn, it will surely get the hint and start firing back again. You shouldn't be able to bank these points over a long time.

Proximity of friendlies should also help suppression regeneration.

Like... 25% per turn, + 3% (up to 9 total) for every friendly within 6 tiles.

Special telepathic leader types of alien could have a longer range and add +6% per (and increase the possible bonus regen from 9 to 15 total). That way you'd have a bit more enticement for taking out their "officers".

I kinda like Gauddlike's approach.

It lets you achieve some suppression without having to concentrate so much fire on one alien that you might as well blow it away.

You should at least give it a chance and let the beta test decide which is best.

A more simplistic system can be substituted rather quickly...

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i think this supresion mechanisme is good

you or the enmy dont lose all the TU's but you will be limited to choose do i shoot back with a small chanse of killing that alien? or do i run out of his line of sight and wait for my squad to back me up and regain my supresion points.

and on thig that alot of you seem to forget its that your goal is to kill aliens not supress them with an endless stream of bullets....

ps. the only time i think i will ever count on supression is fo capturing the alien since it removes his reaction fire i can move in and stun him witout beeing turned into a swiss cheese

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This quote from Chris in the previous suppression thread makes for good reading re. burst fire:

Yes, suppression should affect an area. Or at least, suppression from burst fire should. I'm thinking that we may redo the way "burst" fire works so it doesn't use individual bullets like the single shots do but rather has multiple shots hitting inside a fixed area, although exactly where and what they hit in the area is largely down to random chance. However, everything in the area would take the suppression damage.

Should Chris implement burst fire in that manner, "bullets flying everywhere" becomes a moot point as far as burst fire is concerned. You would know, roughly, where bullets would be going in a specific area. Perhaps the solution to suppression being "auto win" as Gauddlike presents it is to implement burst fire as an area effect, and calculate suppression for single shots from point-of-impact.

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If it's powerful enough to be auto-win then it will also be all kinds of unfun when the enemy starts firing at your troops. =P

In fact, that's part of the reason why I suggested making this a more short-lived affair instead of carrying over for 4 turns.

Game AI is notoriously bad at planning tactics ahead for multiple turns.

If you make such long-term planning too effective, you're just giving the player a free advantage.

Edited by Gazz
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So Gauddlike, if I understand you correctly, you are concerned that a shooting action which misses, that doesn't hit anywhere near the intended target ("anywhere near" being a rather subjective value) still suppresses the intended target regardless. You want the "point of suppression" to be from "point of weapon impact", not "intended target". You feel the best way to determine "point of impact" from a coding perspective is to give suppression values to ammunition rather than the weapon itself. This is because... why? Why, from a coding perspective is giving the suppression value to the ammunition to determine "point of impact" superior to giving it to the weapon?

Because the current damage and area of effect of a shot is determined by the ammo not the weapon?

The weapon has stats for recoil, reload speed, and reaction modifier.

The ammo has stats for damage, area of damage effect, damage type, and armour mitigation.

It appears to me that suppression (as a damage type) and area of suppression would fit in better with the ammunition.

It would also appear (to an outsider) to be easier to add another damage type and radius to the existing item that already has similar stats rather than adding a new mechanic to do a similar but (in my opinion) inferior job.

The system I suggest uses point of impact as you say, the current system as outlined by Chris does not.

It uses point of intention with no account of impact at all.

The accuracy of your troops has no bearing on that system, if you can see an enemy you can suppress them, leaving them easier kills for any other troops.

A rookie with 10 accuracy will be as good at suppressing a target as a veteran with 90 accuracy.

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If it's powerful enough to be auto-win then it will also be all kinds of unfun when the enemy starts firing at your troops. =P

In fact, that's part of the reason why I suggested making this a more short-lived affair instead of carrying over for 4 turns.

Game AI is notoriously bad at planning tactics ahead for multiple turns.

If you make such long-term planning too effective, you're just giving the player a free advantage.

Does the suppression effect end when you regen fully or when you regen to above 0? I assumed it to be any number > 0

If it lasts until fully regenerated it seems pointless to allow for any regeneration at all in many circumstances. As soon as you are in another firefight any regeneration you have done until that point becomes well pointless.

No I don't think that should be the case at all.
What exactly is the point of suppression then?
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Read what the person I was replying to quoted.

I don't think a rookie with 10 accuracy should be as effective as a veteran with 90 accuracy.

You don't actually have to land a shot within range of the target, you simply have to click fire on it to suppress.

That is disappointing.

The effect on the target is reduced AP.

That is also disappointing.

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I don't think a rookie with 10 accuracy should be as effective as a veteran with 90 accuracy.

You don't actually have to land a shot within range of the target, you simply have to click fire on it to suppress.

That is disappointing.

That is not necessarily the case.

The suppression "radius" could travel along the flight path of the actual bullets. Spraying bullets at long range all over the map would be ineffective.

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well its not like supresion is the core mechanic of the game like i said before if i ever am gonna count on the supresion mechanic it will be to prevent an alien from reaction shooting my soldier running up to him with the stun baton

on other ocasions i would prefer to kill my target instead of supressng it

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That is not necessarily the case.

The suppression "radius" could travel along the flight path of the actual bullets. Spraying bullets at long range all over the map would be ineffective.

But it doesn't work that way in the proposed system.

The bullets are disregarded.

You click fire and the unit you clicked on gets its suppression stat reduced.

You also fire some bullets but they have no suppression effect, just a chance of hitting and damaging the target.

The two systems are unrelated.

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Read what the person I was replying to quoted.

I don't think a rookie with 10 accuracy should be as effective as a veteran with 90 accuracy.

You don't actually have to land a shot within range of the target, you simply have to click fire on it to suppress.

That is disappointing.

The effect on the target is reduced AP.

That is also disappointing.

Well... shouldn't the guy with 90 accuracy be hitting the target instead? Since you have argued that every shot should have a suppression effect instead of a separate suppression mode, shouldn't the goal be to hit the target instead of hitting near it? If you need the bullets to hit near that becomes a focus and the effects of the suppression needs to be upped to correspond with the difficulty of suppressing a unit. However if you do point and click fire as you call it the goal is still to hit the target and the effects of suppression can be brought down a bit so they aren't as severe. Suppressed units might have to keep 75-80% of their AP or something instead of the current 50%.

If you know something is firing towards you aren't you being suppressed even if they are bad shots? Who knows they may get a lucky shot off.? If you really want accuracy to be that important for suppression, shouldn't a precision rifle be a lot more suppressing then a machine gun? Technically the next bullet has a much bigger chance to hurt you from a sniper rifle then a machine gun. I'm getting conflicting impressions on your (and everyone else) opinion regarding that.

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Because the current damage and area of effect of a shot is determined by the ammo not the weapon?

The weapon has stats for recoil, reload speed, and reaction modifier.

The ammo has stats for damage, area of damage effect, damage type, and armour mitigation.

I'm afraid that's just not correct in any case except for the rocket launcher, which is a special weapon. Every other weapon has all of those stats set by the weapon rather than the ammunition. Referring to ammunition types is just confusing the issue.

You're also being needlessly dramatic claiming the machinegun would be the best weapon for everyone. Yes, you might suppress the aliens easily, but how are you going to actually kill them if the machinegun is tailored to suppression rather than death-dealing?

The suppression mechanics represent the fact that any unit is going to get spooked with enough potentially lethal bullets heading their way, even if those bullets don't actually hit them. If you have a squad of 90 accuracy veterans, it won't matter - the barrage of bullets would have killed the alien rather than suppressing it. That's the benefit of having more accuracy. By tying it to accuracy you're essentially making suppression pointless given that the troops most likely to cause it are also the troops most likely to just kill the aliens by shooting at them, so there won't be many situations where it actually happens.

I also don't see any alternatives to suppression causing AP damage. As far as I can see, you've not provided an alternative and being suppressed involves not moving and acting as freely as normal because you're trying to not get shot. Reducing the APs is the obvious way to represent that. If you have a better suggestion, by all means put it forward so we can discuss it.

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I also don't see any alternatives to suppression causing AP damage. As far as I can see, you've not provided an alternative and being suppressed involves not moving and acting as freely as normal because you're trying to not get shot. Reducing the APs is the obvious way to represent that. If you have a better suggestion, by all means put it forward so we can discuss it.

I think the main alternative if suppression turns out to be too powerful is to drop the AP damage, but keep your other effects (remove reaction fire and crouch). As long as the AP's remaining to a suppressed unit are enough for it to at least take a snap shot (and perhaps a normal shot) back at its attackers though, I think it'll work out.

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