How about DRM

[Hawkeye]

Ok, as the new guy around, I have one question: What about DRM

Now, I am an old school guy who loves to pull out some of his old (and I mean oooooold) games and play them occationaly (Original X-Com, Wasteland, Bards Tale,...).

With that in mind, I am ok with a serial-number I have to type in after/during install, but any kind of online activation/verification will keep me from jumping in.

Note: I do not use Steam and know nothing abut Desura, so anyone can enlighten me about that download system?

Note2: Yes, I have read the "How to download Xenonauts without using Desura, so I am aware that I not necessarily need it to get the game

[Commissar Pancakes]

Both Desura and Steam don't use DRM (the game is linked to your account only, so as long as you have your account, you can redownload it as many times as you want).

Only thing is Steam requires you to have internet connection to play it, as you need to be logged on.

[Gauddlike]

You can also download and play it in as many places as you have access to your steam account.

The big down side is that if you don't have internet access then you can't verify your account so usually can't play the games.

Not even the offline single player games.

Chris has said that there should be a DRM free version available on release though for the people who don't, or can't, use steam and its like.

[pack.wolf]

Steam actually has a pretty good offline mode. The only quirk is that you have to activate it while you are online. As soon as it's activated you can play without an internet connection.

I don't know if Desura has an offline mode since I'm basically never offline.

Both Steam and Desura are in fact DRM by themselves, since neither allows you to re-sell your copy.

Steam has a lot of community features I'm quite fond of and cloud storage for saves and settings of certain games, Desura is associated with ModDB and allows you to install a decent selection of mods in a very easy way (even for games you don't own on Desura). Both update your games automatically.

Personally I'll choose a Steam key for my copy when Xenonauts comes out, since I really like the program. I'd recommend you try both (the clients and accounts are free, both offer demos for a lot of games) and see for yourself if they offer features you want or have annoyances you don't want.

At the moment you can get a completely DRM free version of Xenonauts or a Desura version. There is no Steam version as of yet, but there will be once the game is finished.

[Gauddlike]

Yeah I never activate the steam offline mode until I have connection problems and then it's too late to be of use to me.

[Hawkeye]

Ok, thanks for the fast help. Neither Steam nor Desura will happen then. DRM free all the way.

Yes, Steam is very convenient (from what I read), but I _buy_ games, I don´t rent them (sorry, that´s how I see it).

This means, I dl it, burn it on CD/put it on an external disk and install it whenever I feel like it, no matter where I am or what system I use.

[Moonshine Fox]

I believe Desura offers DRM-free downloads of the games they sell, don't they? It's a pretty convoluted process to get a hold of them, but I'm sure I've heard of it.

[The New Romance]

Ok, thanks for the fast help. Neither Steam nor Desura will happen then. DRM free all the way.

Yes, Steam is very convenient (from what I read), but I _buy_ games, I don´t rent them (sorry, that´s how I see it).

This means, I dl it, burn it on CD/put it on an external disk and install it whenever I feel like it, no matter where I am or what system I use.

Even if you buy games the traditional way, you don't really own them. You own a license. Of course, whether the rights-holder is able to take that game away from you is another matter, while it would indeed be easy via Steam/Origin/always-on-DRM and the like.

[Hawkeye]

Well, I see it different. If I go into a store, I _buy_ the game, no matter what it says in a piece of paper inside the box. It is a _store_. Stores _sell_ stuff. Period.

Yes, many software companies try to tell me, I don´t actually own the game. Pull me to court and prove it to me, I say!

But enough of this, I don´t want to start a legal discussion

[Gorlom]

Well, I see it different. If I go into a store, I _buy_ the game, no matter what it says in a piece of paper inside the box. It is a _store_. Stores _sell_ stuff. Period.

Yes, many software companies try to tell me, I don´t actually own the game. Pull me to court and prove it to me, I say!

But enough of this, I don´t want to start a legal discussion

It's about the definition of "game". When you buy it in the store you don't own anything but the right to play the game (the license). You don't own the IP, you don't own the art, the story or the concept. You can't start burning your own copies and start selling those copies to friends or strangers. You can't make your own game using that IP (and make a profit).

It's the same thing as for when you buy a cola. You get to drink it, but you don't get to make your own using their recipe and logo because you bought one.

A product is more then the physical object that you buy. Your definition of a game seems to be that of the physical object, which is causing some confusion when others try to point out that it is more then that.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Gorlom

[Hawkeye]

It's about the definition of "game". When you buy it in the store you don't own anything but the right to play the game (the license). You don't own the IP, you don't own the art, the story or the concept. You can't start burning your own copies and start selling those copies to friends or strangers. You can't make your own game using that IP (and make a profit).

It's the same thing as for when you buy a cola. You get to drink it, but you don't get to make your own using their recipe and logo because you bought one.

A product is more then the physical object that you buy. Your definition of a game seems to be that of the physical object, which is causing some confusion when others try to point out that it is more then that.

Hm, we might even be on the same page on some level.

Yes, me starting burning copys and selling them would be a copyright infringement, no doubt about that. But the same way I own a book and can do whatever I want with that book (read it myself, give it away as a present, resell it) I own a game I bought. I can use it, I can gift it to a friend, I can sell it to someone else. And I can do this the day after I bought the book or 50 years later and the author/publisher can´t do squat about it. He sure as hell can´t come 5 years after I bought the book and tell me: Well, we decided that your licence to read that book has run out, so hand it back to us, or else!´

Of course, I can´t start making copys of that book and start selling them, that´s quite clear, but the book itself is _mine_ after I bought it. I simply don´t grant any software company more rights to the stuff I buy than I grant an author/publisher with a book I bought.

[Gorlom]

I'm confused about the bit where you talk about companies/publishers revoking your license to play the game? Who can do that? Where has it been said someone has done that? Do you have any source?

[Gauddlike]

That is how you see it as a customer, the seller may see it differently.

When you buy a game you are entering into a contract with the person selling it to you.

If you walk into a shop and buy a coffee the agreement (or at least the understanding) is that you are giving them money and they are giving you coffee.

If they say you are paying for the right to use their software and you give them your money then you are agreeing that this is the case.

You cannot ignore their side of the agreement because it doesn't suit you.

It would be like you accepting money from someone and allowing them to use your car and them not giving it back because as far as they are concerned they have given you money so therefore they now own it.

You as the seller are asking for payment for the use of something you own, not as an exchange for the item.

An extreme example I know but it is just a representation of the same thing.

I am not saying I agree with it necessarily but that is currently the way it works.

Normally when you launch software, or even before you open the packet you are given an agreement to read and agree to, either by clicking accept or simply by opening the packet or installing the game.

If you don't agree with the terms of that agreement then you should not buy the product.

[Hawkeye]

I'm confused about the bit where you talk about companies/publishers revoking your license to play the game? Who can do that? Where has it been said someone has done that? Do you have any source?

Any software, that needs online verification to play. As soon as the sever goes down, I don´t have nothing exept a lot of code that won´t work anymore.

It might be technically a little different than the publisher actually stating "We don´t want you to play anymore." but the effect would be the same. They decide to shut the server down means I don´t have nothing left.

[Hawkeye]

That is how you see it as a customer, the seller may see it differently.

When you buy a game you are entering into a contract with the person selling it to you.

If you walk into a shop and buy a coffee the agreement (or at least the understanding) is that you are giving them money and they are giving you coffee.

If they say you are paying for the right to use their software and you give them your money then you are agreeing that this is the case.

You cannot ignore their side of the agreement because it doesn't suit you.

It would be like you accepting money from someone and allowing them to use your car and them not giving it back because as far as they are concerned they have given you money so therefore they now own it.

You as the seller are asking for payment for the use of something you own, not as an exchange for the item.

An extreme example I know but it is just a representation of the same thing.

I am not saying I agree with it necessarily but that is currently the way it works.

Normally when you launch software, or even before you open the packet you are given an agreement to read and agree to, either by clicking accept or simply by opening the packet or installing the game.

If you don't agree with the terms of that agreement then you should not buy the product.

Hey, I actually agree with you. Yes, I buy the right to use the software. And that is what I do. I want to use the software, now, tomorrow, in ten or in twenty years. I _buy_ the right to use the software, I don´t lease it. That´s the whole point. This means: No limited number of installations (as long as only _I_ use the program). No online activation (who knows of the servers are still up in 10 years?) and sure as hell no online verification every time I want to play (if I have to prove that I am not a thief every time I want to play, you treat me like a thief. And if you treat me like a thief, you won´t get one cent from me).

The only games this "lease" scheem actually has merits is online-games, where I pay a monthly fee for playing. Here I realy lease the game. Of course, that is where the big software companies want to go anyway with all the games they make (cloud computing anyone?)

And yes, that is what I do. I buy from companies that let me do those things with the software I buy and I won´t by from those that won´t. Simple as that.

As Xenonauts won´t have any of those DRM scheems, I will get it (pledged at Kickstarter already, actually)

Edited June 6, 2012 by Hawkeye

[Gorlom]

Any software, that needs online verification to play. As soon as the sever goes down, I don´t have nothing exept a lot of code that won´t work anymore.

It might be technically a little different than the publisher actually stating "We don´t want you to play anymore." but the effect would be the same. They decide to shut the server down means I don´t have nothing left.

At that point I expect some kind of crack to be released, either officially or unofficially. Something to patch the problem at the very least.

But I can understand the prospect being aggravating.

[Gauddlike]

I wasn't having a go at you or anything Hawkeye, just adding to the thread

I haven't bought Diablo 3 because of that sort of internet connection dependant DRM.

If I am playing online or using the companies servers then internet verification is fair enough.

As you say, treating customers like criminals is a bad idea for return business.

If I go into a supermarket and the security guard follows me round until I leave I am unlikely to go back there.