General accuracy and soldier abilities at start

[Wiz33]

One thing that always bugs me is how a properly trained soldier (and we're talking about the world's elite that gets picked for this organization) will miss so often. I want to see higher accuracy from the initial weapons. If this was done for balance, I would rather see more hits with less damage (it also feels much more satisfying then getting a miss at point blank range). Also, any soldier that pass their training will be able to carry their basic combat loadouts and will be pretty much at the peak of their physical form. Sure, there are difference at body size so some will be able to carry more but all recruits should be able to carry their basic combat loadouts. Yes, this would make soldier development a bit boring but maybe we could come up with improvement on certain specific skills like handling explosive or heavy weapons.

[Chris]

6 minutes ago, Wiz33 said:

One thing that always bugs me is how a properly trained soldier (and we're talking about the world's elite that gets picked for this organization) will miss so often. I want to see higher accuracy from the initial weapons. If this was done for balance, I would rather see more hits with less damage (it also feels much more satisfying then getting a miss at point blank range). Also, any soldier that pass their training will be able to carry their basic combat loadouts and will be pretty much at the peak of their physical form. Sure, there are difference at body size so some will be able to carry more but all recruits should be able to carry their basic combat loadouts. Yes, this would make soldier development a bit boring but maybe we could come up with improvement on certain specific skills like handling explosive or heavy weapons.

I think you've hit the nail on the head when you say this would make the soldier progression boring / non-existent; I understand your argument but I think most players would prefer to watch their soldiers grow and develop rather than just being at full effectiveness right from the start of the game and therefore both interchangeable and expendable. This is something that would be very easy to mod if you'd like to play that way, by the way (I just suspect the gameplay experience that results won't be very enjoyable).

There's also some problems with having aliens that take quite a few shots to kill, for example overwatch fire is basically pointless if the aliens can't be killed in one or two shots because then they can still burst through a door and kill one of your soldiers even if you have half your team facing the door with TU available. A lot of people complained that the late game in Xenonauts 1 was less interesting because the enemies were more bullet-spongey than at the start of the game and I think there was some merit in their argument; I have noticed recently that the original X-Com has much faster and deadlier combat.

So, yeah, I get your point of view but I feel the artificiality is justified by the more interesting gameplay it generates.

[Wiz33]

43 minutes ago, Chris said:

I think you've hit the nail on the head when you say this would make the soldier progression boring / non-existent; I understand your argument but I think most players would prefer to watch their soldiers grow and develop rather than just being at full effectiveness right from the start of the game and therefore both interchangeable and expendable. This is something that would be very easy to mod if you'd like to play that way, by the way (I just suspect the gameplay experience that results won't be very enjoyable).

There's also some problems with having aliens that take quite a few shots to kill, for example overwatch fire is basically pointless if the aliens can't be killed in one or two shots because then they can still burst through a door and kill one of your soldiers even if you have half your team facing the door with TU available. A lot of people complained that the late game in Xenonauts 1 was less interesting because the enemies were more bullet-spongey than at the start of the game and I think there was some merit in their argument; I have noticed recently that the original X-Com has much faster and deadlier combat.

So, yeah, I get your point of view but I feel the artificiality is justified by the more interesting gameplay it generates.

  That's why I said we need to improve abilities rather than raw stats. Being able to learn new abilities would be more realistic (known as cross training) so there is still soldier growth. For example, Stealth movement will reduce the chance and distance of being spotted, heavy weapon training will reduce the TU needed to operate hvy weapons, scout will get a spotting bonus, electronic skill can offer bonus to remotely operated vehicles (say more TU for a robotic unit). Instead of raw stat improvement, you can use proficiency improvement so experienced soldier get a TU bonus since they can do tasks faster (which is also more realistic). All that combined will make your soldier unique and valuable to keep alive.

  More shots to kill is not really a problem if suppression is taken into effect. The amount of fire being taken (number of rounds instead of actual damage received) will affect the chance of a unit to stop their intended action and try to seek cover nearby (maybe with an exception to robotic units). they should also incur an accuracy penalty as it's going to be hard to line up a shot while being shot at.

Edited April 23, 2019 by Wiz33

[Decius]

It's a huge paradigm change, but rather than making soldiers more accurate with aimed shots but take the same time to aim, if aiming took less time for more experienced people? Snap shots and reaction fire taking the same amount of TUs but becoming more accurate also makes sense.

The idea being that everyone knows how to and is reasonably proficient at lining up the sights with the target and squeezing the trigger, but being able to do that quickly in combat is something that needs to be practiced.

 

Or at least narrow the cone in which 'miss' shots can go. It looks much more competent to have someone barely miss the target than to have them barely fire in the cardinal direction of the target.

 

[TrashMan]

On ‎4‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 6:48 PM, Wiz33 said:

  That's why I said we need to improve abilities rather than raw stats. Being able to learn new abilities would be more realistic (known as cross training) so there is still soldier growth. For example, Stealth movement will reduce the chance and distance of being spotted, heavy weapon training will reduce the TU needed to operate hvy weapons, scout will get a spotting bonus, electronic skill can offer bonus to remotely operated vehicles (say more TU for a robotic unit). Instead of raw stat improvement, you can use proficiency improvement so experienced soldier get a TU bonus since they can do tasks faster (which is also more realistic). All that combined will make your soldier unique and valuable to keep alive.

  More shots to kill is not really a problem if suppression is taken into effect. The amount of fire being taken (number of rounds instead of actual damage received) will affect the chance of a unit to stop their intended action and try to seek cover nearby (maybe with an exception to robotic units). they should also incur an accuracy penalty as it's going to be hard to line up a shot while being shot at.

I like this.

And I agree that reaction/supression fire is more than just killing an enemy. If a hit lowers enemy TU or supresses them/stops their action, then it's doing it's job.

[stewpidbear]

While I know it’s a game, and it needs it’s progression, the idea of a trained soldier “missing” with a grenade launcher and hitting the square in front of him so often is ludicrous. Perhaps a tweak so that misses are more realistic could be added to the visual cone? Also throwing a grenade through a door when the trooper is standing next to it could have a far lower chance of an own goal? 

[Emily_F]

@Chriswhat about having different accuracies with different weapon types? I.e. Someone could be great with pistols and small SMGs but not good with sniper weapons or LMGs? Some good at lobbing grenades, some not?

For the tactical screen, could you add another mode to standing and crouched? Like "hide" where, if you were in cover, you'd really get down and hide from incoming fire, giving you increased protection, but be suppressed as a penalty? 

[Dagar]

3 hours ago, stewpidbear said:

While I know it’s a game, and it needs it’s progression, the idea of a trained soldier “missing” with a grenade launcher and hitting the square in front of him so often is ludicrous. Perhaps a tweak so that misses are more realistic could be added to the visual cone? Also throwing a grenade through a door when the trooper is standing next to it could have a far lower chance of an own goal? 

You don't know what kinds of people exist. I had a comrade in basic training who managed to lob a grenade he was meant to throw 25m right in front of his own sandbag line. A live, real, hot grenade, not a training potato. Apparently he never learned to throw balls as a child.

[Coffee Potato]

Personally, I'm loving the subtle new changes so far. Namely the ability to train folks passively and with the side missions, while keeping the general deadliness. I would say the sponginess can be fine if it goes both ways, like how XDiv handled everything hiding behind layers of armor that deflected certain things, but did almost nothing against others. While resistances are nice, that feeling of "I know this guy's armor WILL take those low penetration shots, but would break to that heavy MG over there" was really nice. So far, Xeno 2 has been accomplishing a similar thing by just fixing cover to the point where you can be relatively sure of someone's safety by how much stuff is in the way. 

Edited July 4, 2019 by Coffee Potato

[Decius]

15 hours ago, Dagar said:

You don't know what kinds of people exist. I had a comrade in basic training who managed to lob a grenade he was meant to throw 25m right in front of his own sandbag line. A live, real, hot grenade, not a training potato. Apparently he never learned to throw balls as a child.

That's several training failures right there! He never should have been allowed to touch a live grenade before demonstrating adequate handling of dummy grenades, and also should not have been a candidate for the Xenonauts program until he was able to pass ALL the basic qualifications.

[Coffee Potato]

3 hours ago, Decius said:

That's several training failures right there! He never should have been allowed to touch a live grenade before demonstrating adequate handling of dummy grenades, and also should not have been a candidate for the Xenonauts program until he was able to pass ALL the basic qualifications.

Dunno man, there's some pretty woefully under-qualified people that get themselves into disturbingly high positions in life. Maybe they were one of those cases where they got ultra-promoted due to rich parents, but then when the aliens showed up, it's the first time they had to justify their position as some sort of extraterrestrial extermination specialist that no one ever saw fight before. 

[stewpidbear]

19 hours ago, Dagar said:

You don't know what kinds of people exist. I had a comrade in basic training who managed to lob a grenade he was meant to throw 25m right in front of his own sandbag line. A live, real, hot grenade, not a training potato. Apparently he never learned to throw balls as a child.

Xenonaut Troopers are supposed to be the best of the best, and even some “named” idiot would have been weeded out by then or been made a remf, not put on the front line. But even if one did get through, it wouldn’t be half the team, as happened in one game I tried..........gave that one up as a bad idea straight away........two guys standing by doors hit the door frames and blew themselves up. No way would they have passed cqb training.

[Coffee Potato]

To be fair, XDiv raised their competence a ton, but even then misfires could happen. Like one time where I was about to pull back a really iffy run, and lost the entire squad to a rocket misfire, no idea how that even hit where it did. 

[stewpidbear]

Equipment failure of experimental tech could well be taken into account, it’s the basic competency of your troopers that should be upped. As their the best of the best (black suits all round!), they should have a higher level of competency than they have now. Perhaps as they gain xp their accuracy with more advanced tech could get bonuses? 

[Coffee Potato]

I say this a lot,  but I liked the XDiv approach. They have much higher success rates for things like grenades, but lower hit rates globally for guns. Shooting costs a bit less, so their stats are the same, but grow faster, and basic tasks will succeed unless something interferes, such as range, obstacles, and view obstruction. It feels like they're better, while an XDiv Rookie would likely lose a gunfight to a Xenonaut Rookie.