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[V1.1 - Ground Combat] Shields wielded incorrectly, crash game when used.


Decius

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Thanks. Yeah it seems any hit on a soldier carrying a shield causes a CTD (which we'll fix up for the next build) and the weird rotation is because the SMG is a two handed weapon; it should display fine if you use it with a pistol or something equivalent.

I think we might have to disable the shield / SMG combo, unless we can hack it so the soldier goes all John Woo and fights with a SMG in 1-hand when they have a combat shield equipped.

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Basically that there's no real niche for it as a primary; I feel the shotgun is always going to be a better bet at short to medium range. The idea is that as a secondary you can choose between a weaker but lightweight sidearm (Pistol) or a more capable but heavier sidearm (SMG).

Potentially the pistol can be made more useful by making the SMG have a higher cost for its cheapest fire mode than the Pistol, which means the SMG acts more like an alternate primary weapon while the pistol could be used as a "finisher" if a unit with a LMG or sniper has some TU left at the end of a turn.

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Maybe a parallel to how secondaries are used IRL will help.

Why most people opt for a pistol, and a compact/light one with semi-auto only is the small added weight and speed of draw. As you will use your primary almost all of the time, the switch for secondary happens majorly for one of two reasons:

1. Primary weapon malfunction

2. Entering a tight location where primary is too unwieldy to use (using an assault rifle in tight corridors is cumbersome to say the least)

If you are in a firefight with your primary and you run out of ammo, you are generally better of leaning back behind cover and reloading it rather than switching to an inferior weapon.

 

So with that in mind, I can see a few ways how to make both SMGs and Pistols viable sidearms:

1. Make weight matter a lot more. Soldiers are extremely careful about their loadout, shaving anything they can to make it lighter (100g here and there very quickly adds up), and if you do not you will very quickly tire and not only your movement will suffer but also accuracy. I like the idea of SMG sidearm, something good for positions like sniper who has time to take careful shot, but for sure not an LMG operator or frontliner who is already running a very heavy load. M60 alone weights 9-10kg alone (depending on variant), then you will want some sort of optic on it (lets call it 200-300g) and multiple belts which can easily go into few KG each. Having to also carry an smg with you would be borderline torture.

2. Make draw time a thing. Proficient shooter can let go of primary (if using a sling), draw and fire accurate shot in just above 1 second with a compact pistol. SMG would take substantially longer, likely in few seconds range, but then once drawn you can lay automated fire at the enemy.


This is kinda also what makes SMG's niche as primary weapons - they are a lot lighter and more compact than assault rifles, making them perfect choice for fighting in tighter areas. Maybe this could be represented by having weapons modify look-ap-cost and cone of vision? Having working ARMOR/AP also would go along way, as most SMGs use low-penetrating calibers, which in turn are also a lot lighter (can be as big of a difference as 40% of weight per mag).

 

Edited by Puciek
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3 hours ago, Ninothree said:

Would a mac pistol make more sense than a SMG? I'm not a gun person but from the other games I play, mac pistols are also one handed (in as much as any pistol is one handed).

Do you mean mac-10? It's still pretty long, and that is the major issue with holstering and drawing, as a pistol you can firmly affix to your body (on a belt, thigh etc) which means that draw/holster is easy as the holster itself is firmly fixed. While stuff like Ingram held on shoulder rigs, which are not stiff or rigid which means that both draw and holstering usually takes more time (and more space, important if you are drawing secondary while also retaining primary). That and it also dangles by your side, not very comfortable idea.

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20 hours ago, Puciek said:

Do you mean mac-10?

Yeah, either that or the Tec9. Well, at least in GTA you can run and shoot with them. But that is as far as my knowledge goes. Mind you, in one of the GTA games you can dual wield desert eagles, I'm pretty sure that is nonsense... 

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35 minutes ago, Ninothree said:

Yeah, either that or the Tec9. Well, at least in GTA you can run and shoot with them. But that is as far as my knowledge goes. Mind you, in one of the GTA games you can dual wield desert eagles, I'm pretty sure that is nonsense... 

As much as I love GTA - they are fantastic games, they have nothing to do with gun realism, never even stood on the shelf next to it ;). For example irl you only would fire on full auto when laying the supressive fire, and not even then all the time, because it's absolutely inaccurate. Not to mention dual-wielding auto-firing weapons. But alas let's not diverge this topic further, not what I intended, just wanted to help steer into where niche for SMGs may be at, and why you really want a pistol as secondary, and a small one.

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Just wanted to drop in, to remark that crash even happens if the shield is looking correct by carrying pistol at secondary weapon. Unfortunately I do not have a savegame, however it can be seen in attached logfile at 2018-12-03 20:56:37,528 that trying to do damage to the shield and displaying the hitpoint loss makes the game crash:

 

2018-12-03 20:56:37,523 [INFO] (D:\Jenkins\workspace\X2 (Build)\release-0.33.0\Assets\Code\Libraries\Artitas\Artitas.Core\Code\World.cs:594) 
Queued global::Xenonauts.GroundCombat.Events.StatChangeReport: StatChangeReport (T:GlobalEntity 4741 Item - Name:Combat Shield, D:-15, DT:DamageType:default Q:HitPoint, C:Xenonauts.GroundCombat.Abilities.SingleTargetDamage

2018-12-03 20:56:37,528 [INFO] (D:\Jenkins\workspace\X2 (Build)\release-0.33.0\Assets\Code\Screens\GroundCombat\Factories\Abilities\FirearmAbility.cs:833) 
Suppression:

2018-12-03 20:56:37,533 [FATAL] (D:\Jenkins\workspace\X2 (Build)\release-0.33.0\Assets\Code\Screens\XenonautsMain.cs:439) 
A fatal error occurred during Update() - 
System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
  at Common.Components.GameObjectComponent.op_Implicit (Common.Components.GameObjectComponent component) [0x00001] in D:\Jenkins\workspace\X2 (Build)\release-0.33.0\Assets\Code\Libraries\Common\Code\Components\GameObjectComponent.cs:109 
  at Xenonauts.GroundCombat.EntityMessageTickerSystem.ShowMessageTickerInStack (Artitas.Entity target, System.String text) [0x00069] in D:\Jenkins\workspace\X2 (Build)\release-0.33.0\Assets\Code\Screens\GroundCombat\Systems\EntityMessageTickerSystem.cs:134 
  at Xenonauts.GroundCombat.EntityMessageTickerSystem.ShowDamageTickerHitPoint (Artitas.Entity target, Single damage) [0x0005e] in D:\Jenkins\workspace\X2 (Build)\release-0.33.0\Assets\Code\Screens\GroundCombat\Systems\EntityMessageTickerSystem.cs:91 
  at Xenonauts.GroundCombat.EntityMessageTickerSystem.ShowDamageTicker (Xenonauts.GroundCombat.Events.StatChangeReport report) [0x0001a] in D:\Jenkins\workspace\X2 (Build)\release-0.33.0\Assets\Code\Screens\GroundCombat\Systems\EntityMessageTickerSystem.cs:46 
  at (wrapper delegate-invoke) System.Action`2<Xenonauts.GroundCombat.EntityMessageTickerSystem, Xenonauts.GroundCombat.Events.StatChangeReport>:invoke_void__this___EntityMessageTickerSystem_StatChangeReport (Xenonauts.GroundCombat.EntityMessageTickerSystem,Xenonauts.GroundCombat.Events.StatChangeReport)
  at Artitas.Core.Utils.ExpressionUtil+<ActionFromMethodInfoFactory>c__AnonStorey1`4[Artitas.Systems.EventSystem,Xenonauts.GroundCombat.Events.StatChangeReport,Xenonauts.GroundCombat.EntityMessageTickerSystem,Artitas.IEvent].<>m__0 (Artitas.Systems.EventSystem target, IEvent param) [0x0001c] in D:\Jenkins\workspace\X2 (Build)\release-0.33.0\Assets\Code\Libraries\Artitas\Artitas.Core\Code\Utils\ExpressionUtil.cs:151 
  at Artitas.Systems.EventSystem.HandleSubscribers (IEvent event) [0x00050] in D:\Jenkins\workspace\X2 (Build)\release-0.33.0\Assets\Code\Libraries\Artitas\Artitas.Core\Code\Systems\EventSystem.cs:49 
  at Artitas.Systems.EventSystem.Handle (IEvent event) [0x00003] in D:\Jenkins\workspace\X2 (Build)\release-0.33.0\Assets\Code\Libraries\Artitas\Artitas.Core\Code\Systems\EventSystem.cs:26 
  at Artitas.DefaultProcessStrategy.Process (IEvent event) [0x001c6] in D:\Jenkins\workspace\X2 (Build)\release-0.33.0\Assets\Code\Libraries\Artitas\Artitas.Core\Code\World.cs:808 
  at Artitas.DefaultProcessStrategy.Process () [0x00024] in D:\Jenkins\workspace\X2 (Build)\release-0.33.0\Assets\Code\Libraries\Artitas\Artitas.Core\Code\World.cs:751 
  at Artitas.World.Process () [0x00007] in D:\Jenkins\workspace\X2 (Build)\release-0.33.0\Assets\Code\Libraries\Artitas\Artitas.Core\Code\World.cs:621 
  at Common.Screens.DataStructures.WorldManagedScreen`2[Xenonauts.GameScreens,Common.Screens.DataStructures.IScreenParameters].Update (Single deltaTime) [0x00032] in D:\Jenkins\workspace\X2 (Build)\release-0.33.0\Assets\Code\Libraries\Common\Code\Screen\DataStructures\WorldManagedScreen.cs:49 
  at Common.Screens.ScreenManager`1[Xenonauts.GameScreens].Update (Single deltaTime) [0x000f3] in D:\Jenkins\workspace\X2 (Build)\release-0.33.0\Assets\Code\Libraries\Common\Code\Screen\ScreenManager.cs:149 
  at Xenonauts.XenonautsMain.Update () [0x00066] in D:\Jenkins\workspace\X2 (Build)\release-0.33.0\Assets\Code\Screens\XenonautsMain.cs:436 

 

output.log

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Just to add my $.2: to fight aliens who can take multiple .308 bullets at 50m and still fight back - using a pistol or a knife... well, yeah. Forget anything but the most brutal sidearms - SMGs loaded with .50AE, pistols chambered for rifle ammo, or a sawed-off shotgun with special slug... it if can't kill an elephant, no point taking it to an alien hunt!

We always assumed that the X-com (or whatever it is called) will use the best humanity can offer - the difference in price just doesn't matter. G11, M82, whatever you think is an overkill.

And it won't be enough, it is just enough to give the soldiers a fighting chance.

By the way - the grenade launcher is an excellent idea, way more useful than rocket launchers, but the aiming sucks big time. I still remember the "alien launcher" from the 1st UFO game - oh yeah. Too bad no sequel has ever implemented it again.

Sorry, too much off-topic. :)

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The shield is tactically interesting, but does require some kind of plausible offensive option with it. A one-handed SMG is a plausible option, as is a heavy pistol: Either lots of lead with limited accuracy, or a small amount of moderate hit at short range. Melee attacks are also a possibility, but they would need to be credible in their own right.

 

Would it make sense for the shield to have a melee attack superior to the melee secondary weapons, integrated into it? One of the current uses of riot shields is to charge a target and press them to the ground or wall with the shield itself, disabling them. Scale that idea up to a shield capable of deflecting or absorbing a couple of alien weapon hits on the approach and then hitting the enemy with the shield for a live capture seems like it would be interesting. If the only real role for shields is to protect spotters for snipers or HMGs, I think a possibility is going to waste.

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7 hours ago, Decius said:

The shield is tactically interesting, but does require some kind of plausible offensive option with it. A one-handed SMG is a plausible option, as is a heavy pistol: Either lots of lead with limited accuracy, or a small amount of moderate hit at short range. Melee attacks are also a possibility, but they would need to be credible in their own right.

 

Would it make sense for the shield to have a melee attack superior to the melee secondary weapons, integrated into it? One of the current uses of riot shields is to charge a target and press them to the ground or wall with the shield itself, disabling them. Scale that idea up to a shield capable of deflecting or absorbing a couple of alien weapon hits on the approach and then hitting the enemy with the shield for a live capture seems like it would be interesting. If the only real role for shields is to protect spotters for snipers or HMGs, I think a possibility is going to waste.

3

The word you are looking for is grenades :P

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