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Xenonauts-2 Base System Discussion Thread

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I'm admittedly not caught up with the full thread. I wasn't aware that the no interceptors at ATLAS was in active discussion. I do like that idea though. As my last post said it makes sense from a logistics standpoint to limit airtraffic near the head of your top secret operation.

Probably not the place for it but I feel these threads are bleeding together due to their nature. I'd prefer single interceptors with the ability to make squads of up to 3 like X1. I know the interceptor minigame is gone but that type of deployment I feel fits better with the design and feel you seem to be going for. You mentioned wanting some sort of a readiness mechanic and for players to be limited in what they can respond too. The feel of the small specialized team doesn't really mesh IMO with the 5 plane squads. Given ground squad size is likely to remain the same with 8>10>12 squads of 5 planes would seem silly. How could this resource limited organization field more advanced anti UFO aircraft with trained pilots then ground troops.

Lastly what just some comments on the access lifts. Based on what you mentioned before, it seems there is no limit to adjacency bonus and building an entire floor of labs (or anything else really) would be a valid strategy. This to me says access lifts should always be built on one far side to max that. Since you also said you don't have to wait for 1 building to complete to build the next one it seems the only down side to doing the access lifts to one side would be 1 one space is loses you, assuming that the level 2 to 3 lift comes prebuilt at the start. While I'm not fully opposed to "only 1 right way" situations I feel there should be at least some trade off. Perhaps something like increased build time for distance from the access lift. Just something to make the other build style have some merit.

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@warfrog, the access lift itself could bestow an adjacency bonus, so if you have a lift on one end, only a single room will get the boost. In fact, I feel it would make a lot of sense to have some kind of distance-measure running through the entire base, so adjacency bonuses aren't just for buildings touching sides - for example, if you have a lab on the lowest floor that is nine tiles away from the lift, those scientists are going to suffer some inefficiency.

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Nah, there’s a limit of three consecutive rooms for room merging / adjacency bonuses for that exact reason (mentioned in the earlier post). To be honest the mechanics and balance will no doubt be tweaked a bit anyway, I guess it’s more about the overall perception of how sandboxy the base feels now.

Also regarding the interceptors you’ve got a little confused, probably because the terminology is mixed. You can still deploy s group of three aircraft into battle in X2, the real question is whether each of those planes should be an individual plane or a squadron of 5 identical planes.

The “squadron” system handles damage better but there might be logic issues if you’re using 15 planes to shoot down a UFO then attack it with 8 dudes on the ground. Same with the weapon manufacturing stuff.

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On 7/21/2018 at 2:07 AM, Chris said:

Nah, there’s a limit of three consecutive rooms for room merging / adjacency bonuses for that exact reason (mentioned in the earlier post). To be honest the mechanics and balance will no doubt be tweaked a bit anyway, I guess it’s more about the overall perception of how sandboxy the base feels now.

Also regarding the interceptors you’ve got a little confused, probably because the terminology is mixed. You can still deploy s group of three aircraft into battle in X2, the real question is whether each of those planes should be an individual plane or a squadron of 5 identical planes.

The “squadron” system handles damage better but there might be logic issues if you’re using 15 planes to shoot down a UFO then attack it with 8 dudes on the ground. Same with the weapon manufacturing stuff.

I was initially against the squadron thing, but after the conversations we've been having and the brainstorming I've been doing I am now a full proponent for it.  Although as I mentioned in a previous post it would go a long way if you could actually customize the planes in each squadron rather than just having one of Foxtrots, one of F-15s, etc.  If we could make a squadron do, say, 3 F-15s (interceptor/fighter types) and 2 Foxtrots (missile/torpedo boats), or if we had special planes that gave us some sort of buff or advantage, that would be really neat.  My god I would spend so much time just tweaking squadrons lol.

But as it stands, 5 F-15s or Foxtrots or w/e you're calling each type in one squadron is still fine.  As you said, it adds a finer tune to damage dealing and that's always a plus.  I've also already laid out easy ways to represent these squadrons in the base, both for ant farm and tetris style. 

(I love how I keep getting derailed into talking about the planes in the base discussion thread lol)

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Posted (edited)
On 7/21/2018 at 5:07 PM, Chris said:

But there might be logic issues if you’re using 15 planes to shoot down a UFO then attack it with 8 dudes on the ground. Same with the weapon manufacturing stuff.

The solution is obvious!  Instead of sending 8 dudes, send 8 advanced battle robots - the ENFORCERS - to the field so that they can be upgraded with extraterrestrial technology!

Imagine limbs blowing off due to locational damage!   Perfect obedience!  (Except when their wireless control signal has been hacked!)  Need downtime because of metal fatigue!  Self-learning AI that you can put into thousands of skill training simulation loops!

And of course, no one will complain that robots does not have backpacks and can only change loadout in the base. ;)

Edited by Sheepy

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15 plane against another ufo squadron is more logical.. but i think 5 per squad is overkill.. 3 would be nice as with 9 plane. 5 plane would be overkill for a scout but 3 would be fair..

At x-1, it was lame to able to kill a battleship, even cruiser with just 3 planes.. i don not think any ufo bigger then a corvette would fly alone at an enemy sky.. so if you give so much numbers to our side, enemy should have their own fighters too.. like 2 ufo fighter squadron and 1 corvette.. with this idea you can have 2 kind of plane as a normal plane/fighter and a much bigger ufo/bomber.. it could make it fair.. 

Still it would be funny to able to attack to a scout with 15 planes.. you can make all the ufos cruiser+ sizes and give them escorts.. i would accept bigger air battles.. 

There is an important realism fact here at XCom games.. you never talk about "saving the world with 8 guys" logic.. because it's not logical.. it never will.. and we xcom fans, just like this nonlogical logic and accept that.. happy with that.. so don't worry about it..

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Depends what the main functionality of air combat is. is it bringing more guns to the fight (standard xcom aircombat) or is it more to do with catching the UFO in the first place. Also depends on the theme of the alien invasion too. If they aren't going for a standard occupation, why bother with battleships and cruisers. If they come from space, why use scouts (orbital imagery would be simpler). Do they just need their own transport?

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Posted (edited)

As cool/dynamic as the side view is. The fact that you build from the top down is a problem. I assume you would start out with the operation center on the top (as seen in the screenshot). That's extremely illogical as the OP center should be in the heart of the base (best protected). A side view base will also be very impractical when it comes to base defense mission as witness by the single base defense mission on the new XCOM  which have to revert back to an isometric view with a pre-define base layout with no relation to how your base is actually built.

A way to provide side view layout logic (but will not help on a base defense mission) is to have a preset initial template with an entrance and security/hangar facility on top then a shaft going down to at least sublevel 3-4 with a basic layout (Op center, power, armory, living quarter). Then you can build up and down from there.

One thing that have bug me in the original XCOM is base security. Any military facility will have controlled access point, guards, some form of security response team and choke points. I don't mind having my troops scattered within the base as they would be at varies location within the base while not on duty but there should be dedicated guard posts/checkpoints/weapon emplacement and some form of a tactical response team. While probably not as well trained/equipped as you primary strike team. They should at least provide your basic defense even if your strike team is out on a mission. Also, there should also be surveillance coverage both for the immediate area around the base and all major location inside (maybe the alien should have a chance to hack/disable part of it).

Edited by Wiz33

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Posted (edited)

I think we will try the upgraded concept in the Betaphase. If it works we will use it, if not..........

Edited by Alienkiller

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Posted (edited)

I would like to suggest external parking spaces for planes and choppers. Just a patch of dirt outside, protected by cammo netting. 

Using these cheap spaces to extend your hangar space is dangerous though because you would generate much more threat every time you use your planes to intercept an UFO.

(As a side note: Using your chopper to haul supplies doesn't make any sense to me except some forced limitations in availability of the chopper. Use fuel trucks refitted for hauling cargo, piloted by a trustworthy employee. Too many traffic could also increase the threat)

Edited by Akogooth
typos

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Using your chopper to haul supplies does not make sense to me either.  Especially since ground transportation is cheaper and more able to hide from surveillance.   They will be looking for your chopper but a lone truck (even an 18 wheeler) will not be so obvious.  How do you think they built the Atlas base in the first place?

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If there is no change on this subject, the base is supposed to be on Iceland. On a remote location in Iceland. So, no big highways or roads to land trucks.

 

On the subject of landing sites with camo, it will address one thing that buggers me: defense of interceptors bases. You could say that they are underground camo hangars, so they're impregnable. Only moment they're open is when you're launching planes. You could even have some art (dynamic would be great but static is fine) to show the launching from the side of a mountain, under a waterfall or something like that.

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9 hours ago, Alatar said:

If there is no change on this subject, the base is supposed to be on Iceland. On a remote location in Iceland. So, no big highways or roads to land trucks

Iceland... being in such a remote location totally draws attention by everything exept land based surveyance. Every Traffic would be suspicious. "Oh look a fighterjet/chopper there must be a base close, lets investigate. Oh you were right thermal imaging shows a big heat spot in this area."

Iceland makes only sense in regards to hiding from fellow humans and goverments.

Only way you could accomplish secrecy from both humans and aliens would be an underground base hidden in a mountain like in Stargate SG1 or a really big SUB wich only surfaces to start or land the fighters. supplied by freighters.

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59 minutes ago, Akogooth said:

Iceland makes only sense in regards to hiding from fellow humans and goverments.

That's the story of the silo, yes.  In the story it is only a backup base in case things go wrong, a cheap refurbished silo built to hide from Russians, and is not the original main base.  But things did go wrong, and Xenonauts fall back, and you can expect them to complain about the location too.

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15 hours ago, Alatar said:

If there is no change on this subject, the base is supposed to be on Iceland. On a remote location in Iceland. So, no big highways or roads to land trucks.

 

On the subject of landing sites with camo, it will address one thing that buggers me: defense of interceptors bases. You could say that they are underground camo hangars, so they're impregnable. Only moment they're open is when you're launching planes. You could even have some art (dynamic would be great but static is fine) to show the launching from the side of a mountain, under a waterfall or something like that.

I'll guarantee you that they did not deliver an Atlas rocket via helicopter or in parts.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Akogooth said:

Iceland makes only sense in regards to hiding from fellow humans and goverments.

This makes no sense at all. Yeah maybe the quarter million people in Island (1980) would not notice, maybe. But I can guarantee you, that the danish government would notice in a heartbeat.

If that really is the story for X 2, then it is not very believable. On the other hand, this is a game with aliens, it is all fiktion, so anything goes I guess.

Edited by Svinedrengen
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One could compromise, and have the main base, as an ATLAS style, and a number of secondary bases in a top down style?

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12 hours ago, Svinedrengen said:

This makes no sense at all.

I mean, the US once had an entire town of more than 70 000 people who built the atomic bomb while less than 20 people in the town even knew what an atomic bomb was or could be until the first was actually dropped.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak_Ridge,_Tennessee

Considering that this is meant to be one of the many many cold war era military bases that was slowly segregated away and conveniently forgotten by the paperwork, it makes a lot of sense that they'd be able to keep its purpose secret even if the military nature remains 'known.' Similar to how we know Area 51 exists but not what planes they're developing, yet alone any other technologies.

Secret doesn't just mean, "no one knows about it." Secret can just mean, "no one knows its true purpose."

And then there's stuff like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Outside_the_Box

Where no one knew what was going on until after the result we only have reported reasons for why the building was blown up. It could be nukes, sure, but it could be aliens. All parties involved have reason to say it's not aliens and, in this case, all your ops would be 'black' and probably look more like guerilla ops and acts of terrorism. Considering the fact that you'd have people in the world's governments who know what you're up to (or at least the importance of it,) a cover up isn't that big of a deal. Imagine if modern day terrorism wasn't primarily the result of complex socio-political issues and the human need to not feel lonely, but a massive shadow war between humans and aliens. Just by having both sides run most of their operations in war-torn and unstable regions, you could get a lot done and only report, "104 people died today."

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On 8/10/2018 at 5:19 PM, Larry Burstyn said:

I'll guarantee you that they did not deliver an Atlas rocket via helicopter or in parts.

You've got a point there. I seem to get the idea from the base presentation post that the helicopter is needed as a supply craft due to lack of infrastucture, but I guess it could be for another reason (maybe there's little traffic in the zone and a big truck would be too blunt an evidence of a big operation?).

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But the town itself was KNOWN to the locals.  They like many who worked in the "town" did not know what was going on but knew it had something to do with the war effort.  But the point I made had nothing to do with what the local HUMAN population knew or did not know but what the Aliens know.  A helicopter flying around a "empty" area is much more visible (from space) than a 18 wheel truck--especially if the road is partially or completely hidden from aerial observations..or "spy" satellites. 

 

The base built just outside of Colorado Springs was known to the locals and probably the Russians due to their spy network inside the USA but not to most of the world until the entrance of the base was made known by the popular Star Gate TV show.  I lived there when I was a kid and everyone knew that they were building something there--I knew because MY Dad was in charge of the computers being installed (I did not know what my Dad did at the time but knew he worked for DOD--and found out when I got my security clearance).  The base itself was built to SURVIVE and continue working even if hit by a ONE Megaton Nuclear missile.  Even had equipment there to dig their way out if the entrance collapsed.  And I got caught by the bases outer defense screen mountain climbing Cheyenne Mountain.  Boy did I get grounded--for climbing without safety equipment and climbing without letting anyone know what I was doing and being told to stop climbing . 

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With the tech we got, and aliens got, there is noway to have a "hidden" base.. You should have a cloaking device for that.. you need to cloak everything..

I think you go for realism so badly.. you can't do that at a xcom game.. you will save the planet from alien invasion with 10 soldier and 10 planes.. this is the reality of the game.. like Rambo against all USA enemies.. Over realism always breaks games because games cannot be real.. every fantastic scenario got tons of anti-realistic plot wholes if you think about them.. Like eagles at LOTR..

For that reason.. just imagine that we got hidden bases and aliens got hidden bases.. 

OR.. let an alien make a time travel to warn earth about the invasion and give you a holy cloaking devise to give you a chance to fight against invasion. At the end of the game, you will see that the aliens noticed earth because of that aliens travel coordinates so it was our destiny anyway.. 

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4 hours ago, drages said:

Like eagles at LOTR

yeah we should definitely put eagles in Xenonauts 2 :p

There is lore hand waving that could be done to permit a secret base. One option would be for the main research/command base not to have planes and troops going in and out, that way it could remain pretty secret, only sending out narrow beam communications and otherwise being quite self sufficient. But that would change the game and might take away from the game - more realistic but at a net loss.

Having said that, I think that there is room for more secrecy in the geoscape game. Make the whole operation of the xenonauts a bit more cloak and dagger.

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On 8/10/2018 at 11:19 PM, Larry Burstyn said:

I'll guarantee you that they did not deliver an Atlas rocket via helicopter or in parts.

Nope. But they do deliver personnel in copters, in real life:

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a22698581/the-air-force-wants-helicopters-to-help-defend-nuclear-missiles/

I admit the skyranger shopping trip may not be very feasible with the switch back to real-time, though.  Perhaps we can have two buttons when we buy things: one is "Standard Shipping" and the other is "Skyranger Collection"?

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